@Riot, Can We Please Have a Discussion About Why Summoners Were Removed From the Lore?

Impetual·Feb 18, 2015·11 votes·4,604 views

Seriously, it seems like a really stupid decision that doesn't have much justification for it. If there was a reasonable justification for it, I don't think it has ever been provided to players from Riot.

Summoner's were never all powerful or all knowing. They never had complete control over the champions that they summoned.

Heck, the old lore gave me the idea that** summoners worked with the champions they summoned in a co-dependent relationship** in order to accomplish their goals.

All that stuff about summoners being too powerful to justify removing them never really did make much sense.

Could we get some more info on that stuff RIot?

24 Comments

Slushi SimcambiFeb 18, 20155 votes

Good luck with that.

We got Lore team to promise us a discussion four weeks ago and they haven't pulled their heads far enough out of their asses to even do that much. My advice?

Find another game to invest in Lorewise. Trying to communicate with these people is a lost cause.

Strawberry BirdFeb 19, 20153 votes

It was crippling, story-wise. Besides the way every champion's story had to end in "...so s/he joined the League of Legends," it also locked the political world in stasis. Demacia and Noxus could never have the fight everyone wants to see. It would be impossible to introduce any major conflict without all of us asking "Wait, why isn't the League shutting that down?"

That being said, the League itself had so much potential for plot if Summoners themselves could be characters. Why exactly were the League summoners considered neutral and fit to keep the peace? If they came from Valoran, they would have to come from somewhere, and they'd keep their local loyalties, right? What if the League itself got into a civil war? Or what if one of the major powers discovered the means of Summoning and controlling the League champions and promptly enslaved as many as they could?

Sneak DogFeb 19, 20157 votes

I don't particularly care for war between Demacia and Noxus. They fight and combat happens. I care about the conflict.

Now every champions lore has to relate the champion to a major political power.

Summoners weren't neutral, read Jarvan IV's judgement.

Summoners did not control champions, they merged their minds with them.

The SoulforgedFeb 21, 20153 votes

The JoJ itself showed us that summoners were of different origins, and thus would obviously have biases.

JamareeFeb 18, 20152 votes

They removed them because they were pigeonholed with most of the champions they added. There wasn't really any reason for half the champions who were in the league to be part of it. Caitlyn, Vi, and Jinx. Skarner and Gangplank. MF and Varus had no real reason to actually willingly join and be there.

ImpetualFeb 18, 20157 votes

That's sort of related to my point...They complained about being pigeonholed by the Institute of War, so they retconned it out of existence... and then they continued to produce lore that could have easily co-existed with the Institute of War...so what was the point?!

What was the point of the retcon if Riot isn't going to actually use the opportunity to do something they couldn't do without it?

Seriously, None of the new lore, post retcon, could not have been easily modified to fit the old lore.

The idea that Riot retconned the League of Legends out of existence doesn't seem to make sense based on the lore they've been producing.

JamareeFeb 18, 20152 votes

It isn't that the lore couldn't be incorporated into the past lore, it is that they felt like the IoW was just a thing that was there but didn't have a real connection to the actual world besides it being a reason for champions to join even though certain champions had no reason to be there period. I'm not saying if it is for the better or worst, but that is their reasoning.

NarasimhaFeb 19, 20151 votes

Just to jump in, heres a brief list of champions that would have made no sense in the League under normal circumstances. All post retcon, btw.

Zyra Rengar Kha'zix Elise Thresh Aatrox Lissandra Lucian Yasuo Azir Kalista Rek'sai

ImpetualFeb 19, 20155 votes

Actually, almost all of those champions were released before the retcon was announced.

It's pretty obvious that Azir would have much to gain by joining the IoW if it was still around.

Kalista would have been a bit harder... but hey, Mordekaiser, Karthus, and Yorick had reasons for joining the league so I'm sure Riot could have easily figured something out.

NarasimhaFeb 19, 20151 votes

They were released before the retcon officially happened. But they were also released after they had decided the retcon would happen. Notice how none of these guys after Draven have ANY mention of the IoW?

ImpetualFeb 25, 20152 votes

The fact of the matter is, some champions were released pre-retcon that didn't include much of the old lore.

They were still released before the retcon was announced, so those champions existed pre-retcon.

If a champion that was released in "classic Runeterra" didn't actually have ties to anything in it, then that's just bad writing on Riot's part.

According to their lore, those champions somehow existed before the retcon...if they were written before it was announced.

There is a specific date that riot announced its retcon. If some of the stuff released before it doesn't match the old lore that it was a part of, I think we can chop it up to bad writing.

TrylobyteFeb 19, 20151 votes

Other champions with dodgy motives for joining: Annie - Why is she representing the city that exiled her family, again? Evelynn - Not that we know anything about her at all, but, why is she here? Gnar - Probably doesn't even know what the Institute is. Graves - Why would he join a group that prevents him from getting his revenge? Jinx - Why would she join a group that has any rules whatsoever? Syndra - Everything in her character and personality would oppose her being there. Xerath - Even in his old lore his reason for being there was pretty bad. Zilean - He already knows how every match is going to end anyway.

Sir ArmaMalumFeb 18, 20152 votes

As has been said already, the change allows more possibilities lore wise. Champions can now be altered to different motives, origins and even times. Now, was retconning the entirety of the IoW including summoners the best method of allowing that? That's still up in the air.

ImpetualFeb 25, 20152 votes

Possibilities only matter if they are actually realized...what kind of cool story ideas have actually evolved that would not have it the Institute of War didn't exist? None so far.

TheGrandAllianceFeb 19, 20152 votes

News Alert: Uhm... where/when did RIOT remove SUmmoners from the Lore Again?.....

Sneak DogFeb 19, 20151 votes

http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/creative-spotlight/dev-blog-exploring-runeterra

Here you go.

TheGrandAllianceFeb 19, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sneak Dog,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=YZIYEjwc,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-02-19T15:01:29.311+0000)

http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/creative-spotlight/dev-blog-exploring-runeterra

Here you go.

Again... I have already read this post and stand by my original statement:

Where does it say they removed summoners? They said they wanted to "nerf" summoner's powers HOWEVER it DOES NOT SAY they REMOVED THEM ENTIERLY....

MotajoFeb 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}Where does it say they removed summoners? They said they wanted to "nerf" summoner's powers HOWEVER it DOES NOT SAY they REMOVED THEM ENTIERLY....

The blog itself doesn't; the post is almost as vague as it gets. Check the comments section of the NA one: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/creative-spotlight/dev-blog-exploring-runeterra

TheGrandAllianceFeb 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The blog itself doesn't; the post is almost as vague as it gets. Check the comments section of the NA one: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/creative-spotlight/dev-blog-exploring-runeterra

Yes I see the comments... again this is just player speculation and not anything official

Removing Summoner's would self-defeat the entire core lore of LoL (summoner's representing political interests to resolve wars without large scale combat): League of Legends would thus officially==DOTA... lore-less.

SO I doubt that would happen... and if it did players would have cause to overthrow RIOT's current management thereof.

MotajoFeb 19, 20153 votes

{quoted}Yes I see the comments... again this is just player speculation and not anything official

Check the red replies. You'll have to show each manually because they are so down-voted.

Replying to "So can we get a solid, 100% certain, that Summoners, the Institute, and all of that is no longer canon?"

Carnival Knights posts "Good question! No, Summoners, the Fields of Justice and the Institute are not canon within the fictional world of Runeterra. In-game, players are still referred to as summoners - but summoners won't be part of the story."

They say we're summoners in-game, but it's a pretty empty notion, especially since they're slowly taking out summoner references in the VOs.

Removing Summoner's would self-defeat the entire core lore of LoL (summoner's representing political interests to resolve wars without large scale combat)

Yep. It's one of many points that were brought up, but never fully addressed, if at all.

SO I doubt that would happen... and if it did players would have cause to overthrow RIOT's current management thereof.

Well, Riot did it. They got massive backlash, but it wasn't enough to reverse course. There simply aren't enough people who care. Even if everyone who opposes the retcon stops buying RP completely (only a couple things can get me to spend another penny on League, and I know full well both will never happen), I doubt it would be enough.

TheGrandAllianceFeb 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Check the red replies. You'll have to show each manually because they are so down-voted.

Replying to "So can we get a solid, 100% certain, that Summoners, the Institute, and all of that is no longer canon?"

Carnival Knights posts "Good question! No, Summoners, the Fields of Justice and the Institute are not canon within the fictional world of Runeterra. In-game, players are still referred to as summoners - but summoners won't be part of the story."

They say we're summoners in-game, but it's a pretty empty notion, especially since they're slowly taking out summoner references in the VOs.

Yep. It's one of many points that were brought up, but never fully addressed, if at all.

Well, Riot did it. They got massive backlash, but it wasn't enough to reverse course. There simply aren't enough people who care. Even if everyone who opposes the retcon stops buying RP completely (only a couple things can get me to spend another penny on League, and I know full well both will never happen), I doubt it would be enough.

Okay well to be fair IDK if the RIOT comments posted "respresent actual interests" of RIOT. It is like saying what RIOT_FEARLESS says here means anything lol.

Given how one can site source after source for summoner's nature it would be hard for RIOT to deny their existence. Furthermore there hasn't been any lore updates in effect, for years, so not like LoL lore is going anywhere anytime soon.

Its all about the LCS action... and although LCS is fine; the rest of game shouldn't suffer thereof. I imagine RIOT will come to its senses sooner or later as they will be forced into doing so in time.

AND of course that also assumes that RIOT controls the lore. From a legal perspective they do of course but who gives a **** about USA "intellectual property" laws anyways LoL. The Players in the end control the game (they fund it and play it) especially given the small size of RIOT and in the end they decide what is and is not lore.

One thing the playerbase can do in the meantime is to raise the profile of the "true lore" by engaging it in external actives such as Anime/Gaming conventions... even LCS matches themselves. This probably would require some sort of organization thereof but it can be done as other games such as Elder Scrolls or Warcraft even has always had their playerbase "keep them in line".

ImpetualFeb 25, 20151 votes

When they decided they didn't exist in Runeterra.

Arcade AndrewFeb 19, 20151 votes

my issue is, without the institute of war or summoners fiddlesticks lore makes no sense now he was shoved in a closet and only summoned when need be pretty much...