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@IronStylus: A detailed(with pictures!) criticism and feedback of your female champion designs.

5G8Nri0B54·9/30/2014, 5:56:43 AM·30 votes·22,256 views

I'm not going to lie, the main catalysts for starting this thread is a result of my utter disdain for Sejuani 's VU, and my fear exactly what you will end up turning Caitlyn into for her VU you are supposedly working on. Your signature style really does not compliment either of these two champions, and I will go into detail in this thread.

Before I begin, I guess I should point out that I have no personal problems towards you as an artist. In fact, I'd even say your artwork is often times really good, hell, give me a pencil and paper and I won't even produce 1/60th of what you can do. However, if you consider yourself an artist, you should understand one golden rule of art, art exists to be criticized! And as this is a video game, a second rule is brought forth, art exists to take in feedback! And this is exactly what I am here to do.

This thread's main focus is a discussion of the signature style that many fans of LoL have identified you with, that style that you appear to have picked up AFTER you finished designing Ahri . To be specific, I am referring to your "asexual utilitarian genderless design", or as some members of the forums have taken to calling it, the "yay she's not a slutty whore stripper!"-design. There are problems with the idea of calling any champions that do not hold your signature style a stripper, namely it's horrifically slut-shaming, but that's a topic for another thread. This signature style of yours have a place in LoL, but the problem here is, it doesn't always work. And I may be wrong here, but I get the idea that you feel the obligation to apply your trademark design to every single female champion you work on after Ahri , and the problem here is, there are many instances where your style is not appropriate.

You have been associated with several champions in LoL, many have nothing to do with this topic, namely Talon , Graves (he has different problems aesthetically!), Skarner , Xerath , etc. No, what this thread focuses on is your girls that you have applied, and will apply, your "asexual utilitarian genderless design" on. They are Leona , Diana ,Quinn, !!Sejuani! !, and much to my worry, !!Caitlyn!!'s VU.

Let us start in where your signature style works! Where you succeeded at varying degrees!

Leona , Diana , and Quinn. Or to put it another way...Demacian and Targon(with one exception (2)) champions in general 'hint' 'hint'

These champions are what you can say, "Soldier". By that, I mean they find their place within an** organized ranks within a civilized western fantasy society**. Take medieval Europe as the prime inspiration for these champions. Knights, sleekly armoured warriors that value the protection of steel! As far as personality goes, these champions are orderly, they, whether explicitly mentioned or not, follow their own form of chivalry. The types of fighters that associates with these are...

Paladins http://i.imgur.com/KZJTno6.png

Templars http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/038/5/a/hellgate__london_templar_by_dragbody-d4oz7xq.jpg

"Generic Knights" http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/33400000/Claymore-claymore-anime-and-manga-33467744-2560-1600.jpg

Armoured Foot Soldier http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130506203624/dragons-crown/images/5/5e/DC_-_Fighter_-_02.png

Duelists (so I can't find a better image, sue me) http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fEwl9s8RF7o/TwOh0hsRObI/AAAAAAAACoM/coxBoE-0Fhg/s1600/11128.bwduel.jpg

In the world of Dark Souls... http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130924154325/darksouls/images/2/29/Solaire_is_a_bro.jpg (yeah I can see why Leona is popular to some)

Thematically speaking, your design is good for CIVILIZED characters.

**PRIDE: **These warriors pride lies not with their prowess in battle, not their amazing bodies, but rather their representation of their faction In this case, they wear the symbol of alliance, or wear an attire that is identified to their cause. Be it Leona's association with the Sun, Diana's obsession with the moon, and Quinn's ranger uniform. These champions are distinguished and identified by what they cover themselves with.

VALUE: To these soldiers, formation and strategy is valued. You wear your armour not just to show your affiliation, but to protect yourself from your enemy's steel. You raise your shield to block your foes' attack. If your attire is flexible and lightweight, it reflects your role's need for stealth. If your attire is bulky, it reflects your role's need for defence. You are rigid and conservative.

To that end, Leona, Diana, and Quinn succeeds. FANTASTICALLY SPEAKING(1), they are functional. Quinn's ranger outfit is dark and allows for maneuverability, although her overall design is kinda unorthodox Diana and Leona's armour leave no area open except for their heads(1). Yet luckily, IronStylus managed to make them identifiable and distinct from one another. Granted Quinn could have been done better, buuut...eh. Demacians were never that visually interesting to begin with, can't blame him. Quinn's design is kind of a black sheep as far as Demacians go.

IronStylus. Your "asexual utilitarian genderless design" works well in these situations because these character archetype matches the values you instill in your female champion's design.

Now let's see where your signature style DOESN'T work.

Sejuani ...luckily this is literally the only champion where you screwed up in. Unluckily, HAVE YOU SEEN MY ATTEMPTS AT DISCUSSION IN GD?! Holy hell slut-shaming("she looked like a stripper slut!") and ignoring details that don't support your views ahoy! But forget about that for now, let me analyze Freljord for you, or to put it another way, let me help you compare and contrast Freljord's designs, with Demacia and Targon.

Here is a list of Freljord champions relevant to this discussion. Sejuani ,Ashe , Tryndamere ,Trundle ,Nunu(blacksheep with his own mountain of design problems!) ,Braum ,Olaf , and Gragas . Finally, we have the exception among Freljord champions, Lissandra . She is a very special case and I will explain why later.

All of the melee champions except for the blacksheep are Warriors, NOT "Soldiers". Unlike the Soldiers above, Warriors are fight-hungry berserkers to their own degrees. They find their place not in evenly organized formations, but rather raid bands and clusterfucks of screaming axes, swords, and animal fur covered in blood. The best possible representation for these are perhaps the pre-colonial Aboriginals, Vikings, Mongols, and in general, SAVAGE BARBARIANS. Unlike the civilized soldiers above who fight for a cause greater than themselves, Warriors fight for THE FIGHT!* Barbarians hate cowardice*. They hate anything that may hinder their ability to fight. To them, the organized soldiers who hide behind plates of armour are a disgrace for they hide their true selves beneath protective steel. To these Barbarians, glory is in the act of fighting itself, not in the cause of the fight.

To expose your body to the elements of your surrounding is not a sign of poverty and suffering, but a test of your mettle. Nature's way to make you strong!

Here is what constitute TRUE Warriors, Barbarians, fighters born in Freljord's Savagery

http://i.imgur.com/FdV7eD7.jpg

http://cdn.mos.totalfilm.com/images/r/red-sonja.jpg

http://th09.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2011/154/2/9/old_red_sonja_cover_by_nebezial-d3hz6t4.jpg

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140216204211/dragons-crown/images/5/52/Dc-amazon-epilogue.jpg

http://d1vr6n66ssr06c.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/dragons_crown_dwarf_header.jpg

In the World of Dark Souls... http://i1.minus.com/iFfKFUcw7E4Ux.png

PRIDE: Your bodies! Specifically, how well toned and amazing they are! A Soldier's body serves only to wield weapons of war. A Warrior's body IS their weapon, enhanced by their weapons of war!

VALUE: To rely on one another is to be a coward! To hide behind your armour and shields is a sign of weakness! Expose yourself to your enemies! The true test of a warrior is to overcome all with just your strength alone! Do not borrow the strength of steel, for your body should be all you need to protect yourself! If you have an extra arm to wield a shield, grab second weapon instead coward!

Notice the power of Tryndamere's bare body. Notice Braum's gargantuan exposed pecs. Notice Olaf's exposed limbs. Notice Gragas' unprotected lard................................................................................................

Now notice your bland over-protective full-plate of armour you just covered Sejuani in. Her companion Bristle is completely exposed to the elements. But the savage barbarian queen who trained herself buck naked in the blizzard to the point where she no longer feels the cold? The savage barbarian queen who have the protection of a gigantic boar, unlike the warrior on their foot Tryndamere and Olaf?

THIS, is where I criticize you IronStylus. Your signature style worked for Leona . It worked for Diana . It worked for Quinn (...you could have done a bit better tho). But it did NOT work for Sejuani

IronStylus. Your visual update of Sejuani is uncharacteristic. You applied Demacia and Targon's ethics into a Freljord champion. Your signature style, while great for Paladins and Knights, have no place on a Savage Warlord.

I am not a fan of Sejuani's VU. But if you must justify Sejuani's armour, you must

-explain why Tryndamere is more exposed than chain-mail bikini Sejuani who rides atop a gigantic boar to take all the hits for her anyways -explain why Braum is more exposed than chain-mail bikini Sejuani who rides atop a gigantic boar to take all the hits for her anyways -explain why Olaf is more exposed than chain-mail bikini Sejuani who rides atop a gigantic boar to take all the hits for her anyways -explain why Gragas is more exposed than chain-mail bikini Sejuani who rides atop a gigantic boar to take all the hits for her anyways -explain why a woman who mastered control over the winter storms fear the cold she mastered so much that she needs to cover up -explain why Ashe have no need to dress in warmer clothing despite living in Freljord just like Sejuani -explain why a proud savage warrior such as Sejuani would be so cowardly as to hide behind such a protective plate of armour

Armored with absolute faith in her destiny, Sejuani pushed herself to extremes that would have killed anyone without her will to endure. She walked into blizzards without food or furs and trained while frigid winds raked her flesh. She clashed with the strongest warriors of her tribe, one after another, until her legs gave out beneath her. When she assumed leadership of her tribe, Sejuani commanded her warriors to follow her example. Under her rule, the tribe grew stronger than they had ever been.

THE FUTURE OF YOUR DESIGN!!!

So I heard you've been talking of doing Caitlyn 's VU. I've heard talks of people wanting you to apply your design sensibilities on the spoilt rich daddy's girl of Piltover.

Seeing what you did with Sejuani, it worries me. Caitlyn is neither a Soldier nor a Warrior. She certainly isn't a utilitarian type either. She isn't like Vi who crashes into every fight, rather she's a dainty girly-girl who hides behind cover and snipes her enemy from afar. She has no need for armour. She has no need for long-coats. She has no specific attire she needs to wear.

Rather, Caitlyn is a girl. Caitlyn shouldn't wear officer clothes, she should wear girl clothes. Or if you are so insistent of her wearing officer clothing, make her wear FEMALE OFFICER clothes.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Admin/BkFill/Default_image_group/2011/4/8/1302273115993/Female-police-officers-th-007.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/07/29/article-2381052-1B03F65C000005DC-523_634x428.jpg http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01785/Czech-Republic_1785190c.jpg http://s23.postimg.org/xhwci6wx7/Twitter.jpg http://englishrussia.com/images/lady_police/10.jpg

They're officers, yes. BUT they're also women! Please keep that in mind when doing Caitlyn's VU!

In Conclusion. I respect your artistic talent. I acknowledge that you have skill. I acknowledge your signature style have a place in League of Legends. BUT, I must criticize your application of it in Sejuani's case. I want to let you know the weaknesses of your visual style before it's too late! Before you do to Caitlyn what you did to poor Sejuani .

TL;DR -

a) Your signature style have a place among rigid societies, namely, the world of knights. But it has no place in a society of proud savages! Imagine comparing the Orc Horde with the Human Alliance in Warcraft 3!

b) I have **NO IDEA **who the heck is in charge of how skins are released. But I bet you hold more sway than I do! PLEASE convince the person in charge of skins to make ALL Traditional skins be available to all! I already explained my dislike of Sejuani's current look, and why her Traditional look is much more in-character. But I bet you that other people would love to have Traditional Karma's Yin-Yang dress, Trundle's rotten look, etc.!

c) Please keep my criticism of your style in mind when you do Caitlyn's VU! Whether you intend it or not, her mini-skirt has become a part of Caitlyn, just like Taric 's FABulosity or Gangplank 's orange-addiction.

Do you at the very least UNDERSTAND where I am coming from? What I am trying to get across? If so please do let me know. Do you disagree with any of my analysis? I'd be happy to further explain my position. More importantly...convince the skin-guy to make Traditional skins be available for all and becareful how you re-design Caitlyn. :(

PS - why do I have this weird feeling that you're a Claymore fan?

(1) - notice how I say fantastically speaking? Remember that LoL is in a fantasy setting. So yes, everyone is quite well aware of how unrealistic and improbable it is for women in that outfit to fight in wars in real life. We all know how impractical Leona's armour is. We all know how unusually masculine Quinn's chin makes her look

(2) - wtf is up with Pantheon 's design?! He's a Targon champion just like Leona and Diana, but he holds a completely contrary value to what Leona and Diana holds. Double Standards? Sexism? Ridiculous 300-fanboyism but unable to fit him anywhere? See the discrepency there?!

(3) - despite being in Freljord, Lissandra's armour fits her because she does not hold the same values of the barbarians. Notice how her very movements reflect one who is unused to battle. She makes little movements, like a queen in a long dress. For her, despite being a Freljord champion,

127 Comments

cshakes9/30/2014, 10:44:10 AM13 votes

Have a picture of actual real-life warrior women. They were Greek resistance fighters during WWII (not members of any military infrastructure). http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Cretan-Antartisses.jpg

I suggest you google "women resistance fighters". You'll notice that they're mostly wearing practical clothing that covers their skin and soesn't obstruct their movement? Somewhat related useful reading.

Also, Vikings didn't run around thinking that clothes were for the weak. Any stupid enough to do so would freeze to death in the winter.

I have no idea why you think IronStylus would "ruin" Caitlyn by giving her clothes. It is perfectly possible to be girly with clothes on. IS has specifically mentioned wanting to keep Cait's steampunk aesthetic, which lends itself to girliness quite well. Also, PSA: GIRLS CAN WEAR OFFICER CLOTHES. Thank you.) On the police officer pictures you linked: notice how they have skirts that reach to their knee? Cait's barely covers her ass. Also, I recall the last police officer picture you linked being the image for an article about the city of St. Petersburg banning high heels and short skirts from its police force.

Please illustrate your points with actual pictures of real-life women instead of sexualized drawings of imaginary women.

Also, armor is something Leona's wearing. Lissandra isn't wearing armor, she's wearing clothes.

John Berserk9/30/2014, 11:25:50 AM9 votes

I understand (and even agree) with your criticisms regarding Sejuani's VU design, but honestly, I have trouble agreeing with your ideas regarding how Caitlyn should be dressed.

I agree she's a woman. She's not as much of a girly-girl as you or a bunch of other people always seem to want to make her out to be, but she's certainly not a masculine woman in any sense of the word. However, while she is indeed a feminine woman, I don't think it's right to use that as justification to put her in an unpractical skirt. Officer clothing is not clothing you wear while on duty, or out on the battlefield, it's clothing you wear to formal events, or while in command and NOT actually fighting yourself. It's worn as a show of status, so to speak.

I agree she's not like Vi , she doesn't get into the middle of every fight and she doesn't really need armor, not as a sniper (plus it wouldn't make sense thematically for her as a Marksman, who are supposed to be squishy anyways), but she STILL needs to wear something practical for combat, and a mini-skirt is not on the list of practical combat attire.

She's a woman through and through, and she has a thing for being fashionable. It's part of who she is, and IronStylus knows this and has acknowledged this nearly every time he's involved himself in conversations regarding Caitlyn's VU. So, I can only conclude that when her eventual VU comes through, it will not have her wearing a mini-skirt of any kind, it will have her wearing something more practical to move around and fight in (yes, even from afar), and it will be something less dull in style than the other Piltover Champions (Ezreal, Jayce, Vi) and will actually in fact be something considered to be a mixture of "practical combat attire" and "high Piltovian fashion", because Caitlyn just seems like that's the kind of outfit she'd need to wear.

LordHippoman9/30/2014, 7:58:05 AM8 votes

Pantheon doesn't look or act like Leona or Diana because he's part of the Rakkor Tribe, which is a different section of Mount Targon entirely. Leona is Solari, and Diana was raised as a Solari before breaking off from them.

The Rakkor have very different rules. They aren't a religious group like the Lun/Solari.

I can't really comment on the rest, because I don't know shit about costume design, just Lore.

((Also you might want to check your point 1 there, I think you left out the word "In these outfits" or something. It sounds like you're trying to say it's improbable for women to fight in wars, which isn't true.))

Irongrinder9/30/2014, 6:02:09 AM7 votes

Sejuani's VU was largely for practicality's sake if you ask me. She's not just a barbarian, she's a barbarian of the Freljord...and let's be real, it gets pretty f**king cold there, even for bikini babes.

Ironclad Dragon9/30/2014, 12:58:06 PM5 votes

I find Sejuani wearing armor is better than the alternative. She seems a lot more intimidating...

ShadowKnight122410/1/2014, 7:08:59 AM5 votes

I would like to clarify some things:

  1. Whether something is slutty or slut-shaming in women should be reserved to the judgment of women. It strikes me as very convenient when a straight man sees a half-naked woman and is like "DON'T SLUT-SHAME! LET HER SHOW IT ALL OFF! WOOHOO!". There is, if you will, a conflict of interest.

  2. Most of the examples you cite of female "warriors" are sexual fantasies drawn by straight men for straight men. Real-life female warriors dressed exactly like men, in practical armour (whether that armour was full plate or furs and leathers).

Examples would be these:

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/36/d6/2e/36d62e573d6a95b4662ae5a2daa1ef0f.jpg

http://thumb7.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/181309/181309,1214305265,1/stock-photo--ethiopia-unknown-female-tribal-members-wearing-traditional-attire-stand-together-in-this-14200099.jpg

Rather than the bikini-clad women you posted in the OP.

  1. The use of skirts and high-heels among the women in the police and armed forces is a matter that is hotly debated. It is not a thing that all women agree upon. A lot of women prefer the comfort and practicality of pants and traditional shoes, while others prefer the skirt and heels. It strikes me as disingenuous to cite one side and conveniently ignore the other.

In short, I completely disagree.

Finnical10/1/2014, 1:03:21 PM4 votes

I strongly disagree with the OP. I find his examples of what a warrior or a female officer should look like distasteful. I approve of all Ironstylus's work. New sejuani looks like a badass, old sejuani looked confused.

Destínum9/30/2014, 7:42:05 AM3 votes

You do actually make a fair point about Sejuani that I previously didn't think about myself. However, I still think her new design is better than her old because I think the old one was just distasteful. Showing that amount of cleavage for example, with not much muscle mass to compensate, doesn't really impress most people looking at a warrior.

Gixia10/1/2014, 9:38:19 AM3 votes

Not gonna really touch your points on Sejuani, because much as I like Sejuani's VU and consider it an improvement, I can't deny your points about the male Freljord champions.

That said, I am going to immediately dismiss your arguments considering a potential Caitlyn VU as invalid, and this is why.

All those pictures you linked? Those may be officers, and they may be women, but they are not combat-ready. Maybe a woman officer working a deskjob or participating in a formal parade may dress like that, but I can guaran-damn-tee you, when a female officer is actually going out on an investigation or into a combat zone, they wear pants. Proper shoes too.

darkdill9/30/2014, 6:32:40 AM2 votes

TL;DR?