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@IronStylus: A detailed(with pictures!) criticism and feedback of your female champion designs.

5G8Nri0B54··30 votes·22,256 views

I'm not going to lie, the main catalysts for starting this thread is a result of my utter disdain for Sejuani 's VU, and my fear exactly what you will end up turning Caitlyn into for her VU you are supposedly working on. Your signature style really does not compliment either of these two champions, and I will go into detail in this thread.

Before I begin, I guess I should point out that I have no personal problems towards you as an artist. In fact, I'd even say your artwork is often times really good, hell, give me a pencil and paper and I won't even produce 1/60th of what you can do. However, if you consider yourself an artist, you should understand one golden rule of art, art exists to be criticized! And as this is a video game, a second rule is brought forth, art exists to take in feedback! And this is exactly what I am here to do.

This thread's main focus is a discussion of the signature style that many fans of LoL have identified you with, that style that you appear to have picked up AFTER you finished designing Ahri . To be specific, I am referring to your "asexual utilitarian genderless design", or as some members of the forums have taken to calling it, the "yay she's not a slutty whore stripper!"-design. There are problems with the idea of calling any champions that do not hold your signature style a stripper, namely it's horrifically slut-shaming, but that's a topic for another thread. This signature style of yours have a place in LoL, but the problem here is, it doesn't always work. And I may be wrong here, but I get the idea that you feel the obligation to apply your trademark design to every single female champion you work on after Ahri , and the problem here is, there are many instances where your style is not appropriate.

You have been associated with several champions in LoL, many have nothing to do with this topic, namely Talon , Graves (he has different problems aesthetically!), Skarner , Xerath , etc. No, what this thread focuses on is your girls that you have applied, and will apply, your "asexual utilitarian genderless design" on. They are Leona , Diana ,Quinn, !!Sejuani! !, and much to my worry, !!Caitlyn!!'s VU.

Let us start in where your signature style works! Where you succeeded at varying degrees!

Leona , Diana , and Quinn. Or to put it another way...Demacian and Targon(with one exception (2)) champions in general 'hint' 'hint'

These champions are what you can say, "Soldier". By that, I mean they find their place within an** organized ranks within a civilized western fantasy society**. Take medieval Europe as the prime inspiration for these champions. Knights, sleekly armoured warriors that value the protection of steel! As far as personality goes, these champions are orderly, they, whether explicitly mentioned or not, follow their own form of chivalry. The types of fighters that associates with these are...

Paladins http://i.imgur.com/KZJTno6.png

Templars http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/038/5/a/hellgate__london_templar_by_dragbody-d4oz7xq.jpg

"Generic Knights" http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/33400000/Claymore-claymore-anime-and-manga-33467744-2560-1600.jpg

Armoured Foot Soldier http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130506203624/dragons-crown/images/5/5e/DC_-_Fighter_-_02.png

Duelists (so I can't find a better image, sue me) http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fEwl9s8RF7o/TwOh0hsRObI/AAAAAAAACoM/coxBoE-0Fhg/s1600/11128.bwduel.jpg

In the world of Dark Souls... http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130924154325/darksouls/images/2/29/Solaire_is_a_bro.jpg (yeah I can see why Leona is popular to some)

Thematically speaking, your design is good for CIVILIZED characters.

**PRIDE: **These warriors pride lies not with their prowess in battle, not their amazing bodies, but rather their representation of their faction In this case, they wear the symbol of alliance, or wear an attire that is identified to their cause. Be it Leona's association with the Sun, Diana's obsession with the moon, and Quinn's ranger uniform. These champions are distinguished and identified by what they cover themselves with.

VALUE: To these soldiers, formation and strategy is valued. You wear your armour not just to show your affiliation, but to protect yourself from your enemy's steel. You raise your shield to block your foes' attack. If your attire is flexible and lightweight, it reflects your role's need for stealth. If your attire is bulky, it reflects your role's need for defence. You are rigid and conservative.

To that end, Leona, Diana, and Quinn succeeds. FANTASTICALLY SPEAKING(1), they are functional. Quinn's ranger outfit is dark and allows for maneuverability, although her overall design is kinda unorthodox Diana and Leona's armour leave no area open except for their heads(1). Yet luckily, IronStylus managed to make them identifiable and distinct from one another. Granted Quinn could have been done better, buuut...eh. Demacians were never that visually interesting to begin with, can't blame him. Quinn's design is kind of a black sheep as far as Demacians go.

IronStylus. Your "asexual utilitarian genderless design" works well in these situations because these character archetype matches the values you instill in your female champion's design.

Now let's see where your signature style DOESN'T work.

Sejuani ...luckily this is literally the only champion where you screwed up in. Unluckily, HAVE YOU SEEN MY ATTEMPTS AT DISCUSSION IN GD?! Holy hell slut-shaming("she looked like a stripper slut!") and ignoring details that don't support your views ahoy! But forget about that for now, let me analyze Freljord for you, or to put it another way, let me help you compare and contrast Freljord's designs, with Demacia and Targon.

Here is a list of Freljord champions relevant to this discussion. Sejuani ,Ashe , Tryndamere ,Trundle ,Nunu(blacksheep with his own mountain of design problems!) ,Braum ,Olaf , and Gragas . Finally, we have the exception among Freljord champions, Lissandra . She is a very special case and I will explain why later.

All of the melee champions except for the blacksheep are Warriors, NOT "Soldiers". Unlike the Soldiers above, Warriors are fight-hungry berserkers to their own degrees. They find their place not in evenly organized formations, but rather raid bands and clusterfucks of screaming axes, swords, and animal fur covered in blood. The best possible representation for these are perhaps the pre-colonial Aboriginals, Vikings, Mongols, and in general, SAVAGE BARBARIANS. Unlike the civilized soldiers above who fight for a cause greater than themselves, Warriors fight for THE FIGHT!* Barbarians hate cowardice*. They hate anything that may hinder their ability to fight. To them, the organized soldiers who hide behind plates of armour are a disgrace for they hide their true selves beneath protective steel. To these Barbarians, glory is in the act of fighting itself, not in the cause of the fight.

To expose your body to the elements of your surrounding is not a sign of poverty and suffering, but a test of your mettle. Nature's way to make you strong!

Here is what constitute TRUE Warriors, Barbarians, fighters born in Freljord's Savagery

http://i.imgur.com/FdV7eD7.jpg

http://cdn.mos.totalfilm.com/images/r/red-sonja.jpg

http://th09.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2011/154/2/9/old_red_sonja_cover_by_nebezial-d3hz6t4.jpg

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140216204211/dragons-crown/images/5/52/Dc-amazon-epilogue.jpg

http://d1vr6n66ssr06c.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/dragons_crown_dwarf_header.jpg

In the World of Dark Souls... http://i1.minus.com/iFfKFUcw7E4Ux.png

PRIDE: Your bodies! Specifically, how well toned and amazing they are! A Soldier's body serves only to wield weapons of war. A Warrior's body IS their weapon, enhanced by their weapons of war!

VALUE: To rely on one another is to be a coward! To hide behind your armour and shields is a sign of weakness! Expose yourself to your enemies! The true test of a warrior is to overcome all with just your strength alone! Do not borrow the strength of steel, for your body should be all you need to protect yourself! If you have an extra arm to wield a shield, grab second weapon instead coward!

Notice the power of Tryndamere's bare body. Notice Braum's gargantuan exposed pecs. Notice Olaf's exposed limbs. Notice Gragas' unprotected lard................................................................................................

Now notice your bland over-protective full-plate of armour you just covered Sejuani in. Her companion Bristle is completely exposed to the elements. But the savage barbarian queen who trained herself buck naked in the blizzard to the point where she no longer feels the cold? The savage barbarian queen who have the protection of a gigantic boar, unlike the warrior on their foot Tryndamere and Olaf?

THIS, is where I criticize you IronStylus. Your signature style worked for Leona . It worked for Diana . It worked for Quinn (...you could have done a bit better tho). But it did NOT work for Sejuani

IronStylus. Your visual update of Sejuani is uncharacteristic. You applied Demacia and Targon's ethics into a Freljord champion. Your signature style, while great for Paladins and Knights, have no place on a Savage Warlord.

I am not a fan of Sejuani's VU. But if you must justify Sejuani's armour, you must

-explain why Tryndamere is more exposed than chain-mail bikini Sejuani who rides atop a gigantic boar to take all the hits for her anyways -explain why Braum is more exposed than chain-mail bikini Sejuani who rides atop a gigantic boar to take all the hits for her anyways -explain why Olaf is more exposed than chain-mail bikini Sejuani who rides atop a gigantic boar to take all the hits for her anyways -explain why Gragas is more exposed than chain-mail bikini Sejuani who rides atop a gigantic boar to take all the hits for her anyways -explain why a woman who mastered control over the winter storms fear the cold she mastered so much that she needs to cover up -explain why Ashe have no need to dress in warmer clothing despite living in Freljord just like Sejuani -explain why a proud savage warrior such as Sejuani would be so cowardly as to hide behind such a protective plate of armour

Armored with absolute faith in her destiny, Sejuani pushed herself to extremes that would have killed anyone without her will to endure. She walked into blizzards without food or furs and trained while frigid winds raked her flesh. She clashed with the strongest warriors of her tribe, one after another, until her legs gave out beneath her. When she assumed leadership of her tribe, Sejuani commanded her warriors to follow her example. Under her rule, the tribe grew stronger than they had ever been.

THE FUTURE OF YOUR DESIGN!!!

So I heard you've been talking of doing Caitlyn 's VU. I've heard talks of people wanting you to apply your design sensibilities on the spoilt rich daddy's girl of Piltover.

Seeing what you did with Sejuani, it worries me. Caitlyn is neither a Soldier nor a Warrior. She certainly isn't a utilitarian type either. She isn't like Vi who crashes into every fight, rather she's a dainty girly-girl who hides behind cover and snipes her enemy from afar. She has no need for armour. She has no need for long-coats. She has no specific attire she needs to wear.

Rather, Caitlyn is a girl. Caitlyn shouldn't wear officer clothes, she should wear girl clothes. Or if you are so insistent of her wearing officer clothing, make her wear FEMALE OFFICER clothes.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Admin/BkFill/Default_image_group/2011/4/8/1302273115993/Female-police-officers-th-007.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/07/29/article-2381052-1B03F65C000005DC-523_634x428.jpg http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01785/Czech-Republic_1785190c.jpg http://s23.postimg.org/xhwci6wx7/Twitter.jpg http://englishrussia.com/images/lady_police/10.jpg

They're officers, yes. BUT they're also women! Please keep that in mind when doing Caitlyn's VU!

In Conclusion. I respect your artistic talent. I acknowledge that you have skill. I acknowledge your signature style have a place in League of Legends. BUT, I must criticize your application of it in Sejuani's case. I want to let you know the weaknesses of your visual style before it's too late! Before you do to Caitlyn what you did to poor Sejuani .

TL;DR -

a) Your signature style have a place among rigid societies, namely, the world of knights. But it has no place in a society of proud savages! Imagine comparing the Orc Horde with the Human Alliance in Warcraft 3!

b) I have **NO IDEA **who the heck is in charge of how skins are released. But I bet you hold more sway than I do! PLEASE convince the person in charge of skins to make ALL Traditional skins be available to all! I already explained my dislike of Sejuani's current look, and why her Traditional look is much more in-character. But I bet you that other people would love to have Traditional Karma's Yin-Yang dress, Trundle's rotten look, etc.!

c) Please keep my criticism of your style in mind when you do Caitlyn's VU! Whether you intend it or not, her mini-skirt has become a part of Caitlyn, just like Taric 's FABulosity or Gangplank 's orange-addiction.

Do you at the very least UNDERSTAND where I am coming from? What I am trying to get across? If so please do let me know. Do you disagree with any of my analysis? I'd be happy to further explain my position. More importantly...convince the skin-guy to make Traditional skins be available for all and becareful how you re-design Caitlyn. :(

PS - why do I have this weird feeling that you're a Claymore fan?

(1) - notice how I say fantastically speaking? Remember that LoL is in a fantasy setting. So yes, everyone is quite well aware of how unrealistic and improbable it is for women in that outfit to fight in wars in real life. We all know how impractical Leona's armour is. We all know how unusually masculine Quinn's chin makes her look

(2) - wtf is up with Pantheon 's design?! He's a Targon champion just like Leona and Diana, but he holds a completely contrary value to what Leona and Diana holds. Double Standards? Sexism? Ridiculous 300-fanboyism but unable to fit him anywhere? See the discrepency there?!

(3) - despite being in Freljord, Lissandra's armour fits her because she does not hold the same values of the barbarians. Notice how her very movements reflect one who is unused to battle. She makes little movements, like a queen in a long dress. For her, despite being a Freljord champion,

127 Comments

cshakes13 votes

Have a picture of actual real-life warrior women. They were Greek resistance fighters during WWII (not members of any military infrastructure). http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Cretan-Antartisses.jpg

I suggest you google "women resistance fighters". You'll notice that they're mostly wearing practical clothing that covers their skin and soesn't obstruct their movement? Somewhat related useful reading.

Also, Vikings didn't run around thinking that clothes were for the weak. Any stupid enough to do so would freeze to death in the winter.

I have no idea why you think IronStylus would "ruin" Caitlyn by giving her clothes. It is perfectly possible to be girly with clothes on. IS has specifically mentioned wanting to keep Cait's steampunk aesthetic, which lends itself to girliness quite well. Also, PSA: GIRLS CAN WEAR OFFICER CLOTHES. Thank you.) On the police officer pictures you linked: notice how they have skirts that reach to their knee? Cait's barely covers her ass. Also, I recall the last police officer picture you linked being the image for an article about the city of St. Petersburg banning high heels and short skirts from its police force.

Please illustrate your points with actual pictures of real-life women instead of sexualized drawings of imaginary women.

Also, armor is something Leona's wearing. Lissandra isn't wearing armor, she's wearing clothes.

Destínum2 votes

Also, armor is something Leona's wearing. Lissandra isn't wearing armor, she's wearing clothes.

Actually, Lissandra technically isn't wearing anything at all. She's just covered in ice, which is pretty much part of her body.

5G8Nri0B544 votes

First of all, NOTHING about LoL remotely fits anything in WWII era outside of like the odd skin here or there. So the existence of some female soldiers in modern times says absolutely nothing.

Second and more importantly,

Also, Vikings didn't run around thinking that clothes were for the weak. Any stupid enough to do so would freeze to death in the winter.

Learn to READ, if you haven't noticed already, Tryndamere, Gragas, Olaf, Braum, etc. are all wearing exactly the amount of clothes that'd freeze them to death in real life.

But in case you haven't noticed, Freljord only takes the fantastic elements of vikings. Notice Knights in real life never follow their code of Chivalry. Notice how Samurai's followed their Bushido code as often as a law abiding citizen of today respects copyright laws. But in such settings as LoL, honour exists doesn't it?

And if you haven't noticed, those GIRLS ARE WEARING OFFICER CLOTHES. But said clothes are for GIRL OFFICERS...because they are GIRLS.

Criomhthann4 votes

First of all, NOTHING about LoL remotely fits anything in WWII era outside of like the odd skin here or there. So the existence of some female soldiers in modern times says absolutely nothing.

And if you haven't noticed, those GIRLS ARE WEARING OFFICER CLOTHES. But said clothes are for GIRL OFFICERS...because they are GIRLS.

For someone who bitches about people not reading your posts, you don't seem to take much interest in reading the posts of others.

The time period isn't relevant. The entire point is what they are wearing and for what purpose; what they wear when they are actually doing work vs. what they are wearing when they are attending some formal ceremony. You don't seem to realize (or, more likely, you are deliberately ignoring) that formal gear and battle gear are not equivalent for EITHER gender, and that gear that is made for battle is far more similar between genders than gear made for formal events.

You have been making the argument that she should be designed around what they are required to wear during a formal ceremony, rather than what they would be wearing when they are doing work. This is a point that has been made by several posters that you are still ignoring in favor of what you want them to be saying.

Also they aren't dressing "like girls" (whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean); formal gear is designed around the culture's/societies idea of what girls and boys ought to be, irrelevant to what they are. It's exactly why formal gear looks so different from country to country when there is little overlap or desire to conform to western standards.

John Berserk9 votes

I understand (and even agree) with your criticisms regarding Sejuani's VU design, but honestly, I have trouble agreeing with your ideas regarding how Caitlyn should be dressed.

I agree she's a woman. She's not as much of a girly-girl as you or a bunch of other people always seem to want to make her out to be, but she's certainly not a masculine woman in any sense of the word. However, while she is indeed a feminine woman, I don't think it's right to use that as justification to put her in an unpractical skirt. Officer clothing is not clothing you wear while on duty, or out on the battlefield, it's clothing you wear to formal events, or while in command and NOT actually fighting yourself. It's worn as a show of status, so to speak.

I agree she's not like Vi , she doesn't get into the middle of every fight and she doesn't really need armor, not as a sniper (plus it wouldn't make sense thematically for her as a Marksman, who are supposed to be squishy anyways), but she STILL needs to wear something practical for combat, and a mini-skirt is not on the list of practical combat attire.

She's a woman through and through, and she has a thing for being fashionable. It's part of who she is, and IronStylus knows this and has acknowledged this nearly every time he's involved himself in conversations regarding Caitlyn's VU. So, I can only conclude that when her eventual VU comes through, it will not have her wearing a mini-skirt of any kind, it will have her wearing something more practical to move around and fight in (yes, even from afar), and it will be something less dull in style than the other Piltover Champions (Ezreal, Jayce, Vi) and will actually in fact be something considered to be a mixture of "practical combat attire" and "high Piltovian fashion", because Caitlyn just seems like that's the kind of outfit she'd need to wear.

LordHippoman8 votes

Pantheon doesn't look or act like Leona or Diana because he's part of the Rakkor Tribe, which is a different section of Mount Targon entirely. Leona is Solari, and Diana was raised as a Solari before breaking off from them.

The Rakkor have very different rules. They aren't a religious group like the Lun/Solari.

I can't really comment on the rest, because I don't know shit about costume design, just Lore.

((Also you might want to check your point 1 there, I think you left out the word "In these outfits" or something. It sounds like you're trying to say it's improbable for women to fight in wars, which isn't true.))

Celio Hogane HD2 votes

Tecnically Leona and diana are part of the Rakkor tribe, since the solari and lunari are part of that tribe...

LordHippoman1 votes

I think Solari/Lunari is its own thing, made up of different tribes. I might be wrong though. We'll just have to wait for the inevitable Mt. Targon update. I mean, they gave Shurima one, and nothing happened there until recently.

Destínum2 votes

The Lunari doesn't really exist anymore, so can't really speak for them. However, Pantheon did state in the JoJ that the Solari are an important part of the Rakkor's culture, so they are obviously part of it. They seem to be very independent from the rest of the clan though, and their way of living seems very different as well.

5G8Nri0B544 votes

Shiiiit...I missed that part. I'll fix it thx.

Lumus Avatar1 votes

Leona was born Rakkor, but her views on combat and penchant for protecting allies as opposed to slaying enemies set her apart from her Rakkor brethren. That's when the Solari stepped in and said "we have a place where you can be yourself." It's not entirely clear, but the Solari may be a subset of Rakkor that do not worship war as an art like those lower on Targon's peaks.

cshakes2 votes

Actually, she refused to kill one of her peers, so the tribe elders tried to execute her, so she stunned them with her Awesome Sun Powers. Then the Solari came and were, like, "Zomg Sun Powers, Hail our Messiah!" and Leona went to live with the Solari. Source: her League Judgement.

Diana x Me2 votes

Actually, she refused to kill one of her peers, so the tribe elders tried to execute her, so she stunned them with her Awesome Sun Powers. Then the Solari came and were, like, "Zomg Sun Powers, Hail our Messiah!" and Leona went to live with the Solari. Source: her League Judgement.

Her peers name was Malek. He was one of her friends.

Also I like targons well ( one ex-targon ) armor style. It's fitting for the group in which Valorans greatest warriors reside.( Rakkorians only fight when outnumbered 10 to 1 or more.

Personally I don't like Leona too much as a character( I'm a Diana lover through and through so that's probably where that comes from).

Irongrinder7 votes

Sejuani's VU was largely for practicality's sake if you ask me. She's not just a barbarian, she's a barbarian of the Freljord...and let's be real, it gets pretty f**king cold there, even for bikini babes.

Neon Robot15 votes

[deleted]

Lumus Avatar3 votes

Can't we just put appropriate clothes/armor on all of them (even Trynd) and be done with it? It doesn't seem to me that any of these guys, no matter how angry they are, are going to last a day out in the really cold parts of the Freljord dressed as they currently are.

Ironclad Dragon5 votes

I find Sejuani wearing armor is better than the alternative. She seems a lot more intimidating...

ShadowKnight12245 votes

I would like to clarify some things:

  1. Whether something is slutty or slut-shaming in women should be reserved to the judgment of women. It strikes me as very convenient when a straight man sees a half-naked woman and is like "DON'T SLUT-SHAME! LET HER SHOW IT ALL OFF! WOOHOO!". There is, if you will, a conflict of interest.

  2. Most of the examples you cite of female "warriors" are sexual fantasies drawn by straight men for straight men. Real-life female warriors dressed exactly like men, in practical armour (whether that armour was full plate or furs and leathers).

Examples would be these:

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/36/d6/2e/36d62e573d6a95b4662ae5a2daa1ef0f.jpg

http://thumb7.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/181309/181309,1214305265,1/stock-photo--ethiopia-unknown-female-tribal-members-wearing-traditional-attire-stand-together-in-this-14200099.jpg

Rather than the bikini-clad women you posted in the OP.

  1. The use of skirts and high-heels among the women in the police and armed forces is a matter that is hotly debated. It is not a thing that all women agree upon. A lot of women prefer the comfort and practicality of pants and traditional shoes, while others prefer the skirt and heels. It strikes me as disingenuous to cite one side and conveniently ignore the other.

In short, I completely disagree.

junglerboy163 votes

This^ Referencing other fan service styled art does not make styling Sejuani like that any more valid than how she is depicted now. And don't say that it is hyper conservative compared to the other Freljord champions, because each champion from the Freljord has their own unique design, as is fitting for a people group with so many diverse fighters in it.

Finnical4 votes

I strongly disagree with the OP. I find his examples of what a warrior or a female officer should look like distasteful. I approve of all Ironstylus's work. New sejuani looks like a badass, old sejuani looked confused.

Destínum3 votes

You do actually make a fair point about Sejuani that I previously didn't think about myself. However, I still think her new design is better than her old because I think the old one was just distasteful. Showing that amount of cleavage for example, with not much muscle mass to compensate, doesn't really impress most people looking at a warrior.

5G8Nri0B548 votes

There are two crucial yet slightly contradicting details to take note of though.

**1) **I'm going assume, by muscle mass you're referring to this

http://collider.com/wp-content/uploads/conan-the-barbarian-arnold-schwarzenegger-movie-image.jpg

In this case, while it is realistically possible for both males and females(MUCH easier for males though) to achieve that muscle mass, it is highly improbable and even impractical to have such muscles if you're a warrior. For one thing, that amount of muscle can not be acquired from just training and having a rough everyday life, it requires specialized equipment, a daily training regiment that can only be gotten in today's privileged society, and an amount of nutrients that just isn't realistically possible in the time-period these fantasy settings depict.

NOW, this sounds like it completely contradicts everything I just said, but then we jump onto...

**2) **Power Fantasy. For better or for worse, boys and girls have completely different Power fantasies that appeals very differently.

Here is He-Man and She-Ra. Characters from the same universe developed by the same company to sell toys for kids. He-Man is meant to appeal to boys while She-Ra appeals to girls.

http://www.i-mockery.com/minimocks/he-man-she-ra-christmas/22.jpg

It is true that SOME boys and SOME girls like the character meant to appeal to the opposite gender, but according to the sales at the Toys-R-Us I used to work in, there is a strong link between character and genders who buy them. Of course, overall He-Man enjoys much more success than She-Ra, turns out beautiful warrior lady, or any warrior lady in general isn't the best seller...which leads to the next comparison.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img27/9633/lyth.jpg

I should point out, despite the name "POWER Fantasy", a more accurate name should have just been "Fullfillment Fantasy" instead if you want to talk about genders in general. Simply put, females in fantasies are depicted differently. They are depicted in such a way to appeal most to both genders, and the same goes for male.

This is a bit of a generalization, but overall, the buxom thin bodies bombshell is desirable for both genders. For women, it's something they want to strive for however unlikely. For men...fanservice! The rippling alpha-male ogre is the same, something men strive for however unlikely, but also fanservice for females(hence why the girls in my Uni's anime club are crazy over shirtless Goku...).

Don't believe me about attractive females appealing to women? Go to a shopping mall and pay attention to the type of images used to advertised female products. It's practically soft-core porn depending on which section of the mall you go to. Victoria's Secret, Sears, catalogues for women's clothes in magazines, etc.

Sejuani , for her part, was no worse than Tryndamere. But unlike Tryndamere, Sejuani actually finds herself MUCH more justified.

Just think about the circumstances the two champions faces in a battle.

-one fights atop the safety of her trusty steed vs the other fights on foot -one has some modesty armour to guard herself(even if it's just to lower ratings) vs. bare-chested savagery -one have a gigantic furry arctic mammal generating as much heat as a real life polar bear vs nothing but the cold hard snow covered ground -one have mastery over the winter storms vs. the ability to get really pissed off

Feel free to apply that comparison with the other Freljord warriors.

(now if only there was a way to bait IronStylus so he can understand, or atleast try to see this pov!)

Destínum4 votes

I'm well aware of both the points you made about muscle and about "fullfillment fantasy". However, what I ment about the muscle part is that old Sejuani should have looked more like Shyvana on her new splash art (minus the dragon scales), rather than just being as slim as any mage or marksman.

Again, I know Sejuani shouldn't need a lot of clothes for the sake of freezing or protecting herself, just like most other Freljord champions. I just said I still think her new design is better than her old because I think her old was just distasteful (in the same way I think He-Man's design is distasteful). I would have been fine with Sejuani showing more skin, as long as she actually seems fit and not slim, as well as not showing things like cleavage just for the sake of showing cleavage. Champs like Tryndamere show off their bare chest and muscles because they want to look intimidating and big. I don't think anyone would feel the same for cleavage.

5G8Nri0B543 votes

THANK YOU...for not being like other commentators below...you'd think that since this is no longer GD people would actually bother to read or make an attempt at politeness, a well thought out discussion, whatever. But NOPE, fuck dat shit...

Anyways, I will agree with you that Shyvana definitely looks better than Traditional Sejuani as far as splash-art goes, although I must add that LoL splash-arts have made MAAASSSIVE improvements since Sejuani was first introduced. Therefore, even Cassiopeia's new hideous monkey-face splash-art is technically a massive improvement to her outdated splash-art. In Sejuani's case, I think the correct term you're looking for is her skin being a tad too smooth, or in another word, she's lacking in tone, but that's less to do with flaw in her character design and more to do with the quality of art at that time. Just look at how dull Viktor was.

Anyways, I think I may have an idea on where you're coming from, but mind elaborating on what you mean by distasteful in regards to old Sejuani and He-Man?

Lastly,

Champs like Tryndamere show off their bare chest and muscles because they want to look intimidating and big. I don't think anyone would feel the same for cleavage.

You don't see a little problem with just that alone?

(with that said, Shyvana's new splash-art makes her hair far too similar to her flesh)

Destínum3 votes

Note that this is just my personal opinion, but I think what differs old Sejuani and He-Man from cases like Tryndamere is that they lack clothes for the sake of lacking clothes, not because it does anything for their character. As stated by someone else in the discussion already, Tryndamere is completely covered up except for his chest. And like I said, he does actually have a reason to show off his chest: He wants to look intimidating and big.

When it comes to old Sejuani and He-Man, most people would agree that neither of their outfits have this effect. They just look ridiculous.

Lumus Avatar11 votes

Flame me all you want but I wholeheartedly disagree with your point of view. Even muscle-bound Conan the Barbarian layered up in animal skins before venturing into the frozen wastes of his world. I think Sejuani looks way better since her VU. The bikini just did not make any sense at all. The idea that anyone is as exposed as Gragas, Tryndamere, or Ashe out in the truly frozen parts of the Freljord is utterly ridiculous. That's where the term exposure comes from, your skin and, later, body are destroyed by high and low temperatures, wind carrying abrasive materials (like ice, snow), and water which carries away body heat and causes hypothermia.

I've played Ashe since I began on League, but I have always held the opinion that her outfit is poorly designed for the environment she's said to inhabit. I chalked it up to teenage sexual fantasy and ignored it until now. If you're trying to argue that there is machismo in being nude in the arctic, I have to disagree with you. I would see every Freljord champion clad in fur and light metal armor before I would want to see the return of Bikini-mail Sejuani. I'll point at the new skin for Quinn. Has some problems but overall, that is what I'd want to wear in a cold combat environment. It's sensible, protects from the elements, protects from swords.

No hate, just disagree.

5G8Nri0B545 votes

Flame me all you want

In case you haven't noticed, literally the only one being flamed is ME... But...thank you for not being a troll like some other commentators further below anyways. (is it that hard to read and be respectful?)

It's a good thing that you find the very idea of Tryndamere, Gragas, Braum, etc. to be utterly ludicrous. And I can see myself agreeing with you to an extent that a decent solution is to cover-up Braum, Gragas, Trynd, Olaf, etc. to be more Sejuani like.

BUT...can you atleast see a very sexist double-standard that just happened?

Why do you think people are so ready to come up with stupid cop-out excuses why Tryndamere, Gragas, and Tryndamere are so totally allowed to bare their bodies, but the mounted savage warlord Sejuani needs to cover up? Why does she get a full VU almost immediately after her release compared to other champions?

What do you think it implies about the people okay with Tryndamere being as he is, but downvote spam if a person suggests that the other sex should get equal treatment?

-because Sejuani is a WOMAN, she needs to be covered up because her body is shameful -because Sejuani is a WOMAN, VU's oughta prioritize to cover her up first even though Tryndamere has been around for as long as League existed -because Sejuani is a WOMAN, arguing that she be held to the same standard as male champions makes you worse than Hitler

NOW, if that new armour of her fits her thematically, that it fits her personality...then it can be justified. But...except it's not. It's not even well-designed or memorable. It's just really generic and tacked on....maybe if her armour was made to look like it was made from Boar-hide, or maybe she was drenched in blood, perhaps. But then you'd still have to justify why Sejuani gets special treatment.

With that being said, while I respect your opinion, I lean more towards the "they should all be more bare" side of things for thematic reasons.

You are correct that it is utterly ridiculous that Gragas and Tryndamere is all bare, you can not deny that. But that is likely Riot's intention here. LoL isn't a direct reflection of real life, it is an idealization, a FANTASY.

This is why all the argument that Sejuani must be covered up in armour and protected from the cold is a whole load of bollocks to begin with. Asides from the sexist double-standard going on, there's also the fact that you are talking about a wild-woman with the power to control ice.

Of course, if I had to choose between this ridiculous double standard or ALL Freljord champions being covered up, I'd choose the latter.

John Berserk4 votes

You know, Tryndamere and Braum, while mostly bare-chested, are pretty well covered-up everywhere else.

Let's look at all the Freljord Champs one by one (at least the relevant ones, so no Anivia Lissandra Nunu Trundle Udyr or Volibear)

I highlighted the exposed skin that would be greatly affected by the cold weather in light blue.

Ashe

It doesn't look like a lot is exposed, but it's easy to tell how thin her clothes are, so it's pretty hard to imagine anyone wearing this in the Freljord. I put the blame of this design on the fact that when they gave Ashe her VU, they weren't updating her old design, merely her model and effects and such. I think she needs a minor redesign.

Braum

Yes he is bare-chested in the Freljord, but everywhere else really, he's pretty tightly covered up. From his abdominal area down, he's protected from the cold. I think someone used to living in cold weather would be alright with this much exposed. It should also be worth noting his giant shield can help with the biting cold winds. Not entirely practical, but not entirely impractical either, not like Ashe's.

Gragas

How is he not dead Gragas is a mess of a Freljord champion, but was he even from the Freljord when he was first released?? I can't remember, but either way the blame for Gragas' design is on the old Champion designers, whose designs...weren't really the best. He needs a VU, for more than just his design.

Olaf

Olaf needs pants. If he just had some pants, I think he would be, well, not necessarily fine, but way better off. Again though, like Gragas and Ashe, old Champion designs were sucky.

Tryndamere

Like Braum, he may be bare-chested, but everything from his abdominal area down is covered. But unlike Braum, he doesn't have a big shield to help block the biting wind, nor does he have any furs on his upper body to help hold in some body heat. Though I guess he can stay warm from all of his anger and his blood rushing through him at such high rates?? Like Ashe, Gragas, and Olaf before him, his design is based off of an older one. Even so, however, he's not in too bad of shape.

(Traditional)Sejuani

She was almost as exposed as Gragas. The only parts of her body NOT exposed were her feet, hips, upper arms, and head. Everything else was just out there. I think she was designed visually at a time where they had yet to transition from their "old" ways of designing and into their "current" ways of designing, if that makes any sense.

There is a bit of a double-standard going on with the Freljord champs, if you compare them as if they were all designed with Riot's current design philosophies, which they weren't (I should have mentioned this in my previous post, but I was more focused on Caitlyn). It's obvious a lot of Riot's Freljord champs are overly and unrealistically exposed, but that's because they were designed a long time ago, and are due for a VU (for some of them ANOTHER) anyway.

I highly, highly doubt Riot would ever design these Champions the same way today as they had back then. I say wait to compare and judge until they're all designed under more or less the same circumstances and philosophies as each other. Once they are, THEN we can fairly judge Riot's design choices.

SecretLore3 votes

Yeah we should not forget,that Olaf and gragas were not designed to be from the freljord(though olaf was from a different cold place),in fact gragas may be associated with the freljord,but he isn't FROM the freljord(and it is unknown how much time he really spends there).

Also Braum Ashe Tryndamere Gragas are all avarosans who inhabit the warmest places in the freljord,while Sejuani and her tribe live in one of the coldest areas.

5G8Nri0B542 votes

Okay, if Olaf and Gragas are not FROM Freljord, meaning they're immigrants from another land entering Freljord that makes their attire(or lack of) even worse.

If you are born in somewhere warmer, the coldness of the place you move to is amplified by the fact that your body is not adapted.

Destínum2 votes

The reason why Sejuani was higher on the priority than the rest are because she was sexualized, while none of the males where. Sure, they where badly covered up, but bodybuilders/super fat guys are not the norm of what's considered attractive. Sejuani on the other hand, who was slim and had pretty perfectly sized breasts, fit perfectly into what's considered attractive.

Criomhthann4 votes

Sej was a high priority because everything about her was shit. Her kit was a mess, her thematics were inconsistent, and above all else, she wasn't played at all.

Sexualization is not a big determinate on Riots rework and VU list.

Destínum2 votes

When it hurts the character, sexualization is actually a big determinating factor for Riot. That's the whole reason why Caitlyn is even being considered for one.

5G8Nri0B541 votes

Well...Caitlyn is just plain outdated. Eventually Miss Fortune, Evelynn, and Kennen will get theirs too due to sheer datedness. I respect IronStylus' artistic abilities and the great artworks he can do so well, though I wonder how his VU of something like MF will turn out...

Also it's not just the skirt, there's also been back and forth talks about her comical tophat and deciding whether she should be a sniper or a sheriff. Personally I'd feel that being League's sniper is more distinctive if only because her kit atleast have a little bit more to do with sniping than it does with...sheriffing.

Destínum2 votes

She is outdated, but in terms of pure model quality she isn't even top 20 in needing a VU. She is simply a porly designed champion for what type of character she is. Also, she's ment to be both a sniper and a sheriff. I don't see why those two could contradict each others?

Xy0OXOKPUg2 votes

The reason why Sejuani was higher on the priority than the rest are because she was sexualized, while none of the males where. Sure, they where badly covered up, but bodybuilders/super fat guys are not the norm of what's considered attractive. Sejuani on the other hand, who was slim and had pretty perfectly sized breasts, fit perfectly into what's considered attractive.

NONE of the males were? You realize that to gay players, there are tons of sexualized League of Legends champions, most of whom have been named in this thread...

Tryndamere is a prime example...

Destínum3 votes

Tryndamere is not sexualised. He, Braum, Olaf, etc. basically have body-builder level bodies, and most people do not consider body builders attractive. Not hating on any of them, but their faces aren't really that handsome either.

5G8Nri0B541 votes

The reason why Sejuani was higher on the priority than the rest are because she was sexualized, while none of the males where. Sure, they where badly covered up, but bodybuilders/super fat guys are not the norm of what's considered attractive.

Fat guys I'd agree, but body-builders...would be what you'd call conventionally attractive, or atleast the male's equivalent of a buxom female with smooth skin.

Anyways, don't you atleast see a little problem with this mindset though? Let's take the scenario that you are correct, that Sejuani really was updated because she was a sexy female. Do you think Riot would have so readily redesigned a MALE champion if they were sexualized to Sejuani's attempt? Do you think people would complain and call Riot sexist if they sexualized a male? The answer is no, or atleast to a MUCH lesser extent than Sejuani's.

To me, I hate that difference. How one sex is allowed to be depicted in such a way, but if the opposite is treated equally? Then it's considered unacceptable.

(PS - in my opinion, a number of male champions ARE sexualized already, but from your post I'm gathering that you don't entirely agree with that notion)

Destínum2 votes

Body-builders are not the male's equivalent of a "buxom female with smooth skin". Bodies like Varuses and Yasuos, that is the ideal male for most women and gay men.

If the majority of male champions where sexualized for no reason while the females wasn't (it's the other way around in reality), then yes, I do think people would complain. That would never happen though, because Leagues designers and their targeted audience are primarily straight men.

5G8Nri0B542 votes

(christ on a bike it's such a pain in the ass to find a post that isn't newly posted in this forum)

I'd argue that body-builders are sexualized. I'm not sure if you worked in a book store before, especially one where you're forced to shelve the books by demographics rather than genre, but the one thing that is popular with moms and teen girls pretending to do their moms grocery list are a very specific type of romance novels.

http://prettysleepy.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/set9-09.jpg

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/storyimage/CN/20110307/FREE/110309885/AR/0/Sandra-Hill-book.jpg?q=100&cci_ts=20110307175421

http://i12.servimg.com/u/f12/09/03/30/66/manofd10.jpg

And yes, even today you still see them in shelves. And despite the rise of tween-centric vampire romances, these types are still a thing with girls.

(also, boy bands and stuff with Bieber-esque underaged popstars are also popular..................................with moms)

Destínum1 votes

Well those guys aren't really bodybuilders, they're just fit. That I agree, is what most women are attracted to. Bodybuilders look more like this:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/images/2014/amateur-bodybuilder-of-the-week-jay-carved-out-a-chiseled-body-1sm.jpg

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/images/2007/kenyattaw1.jpg

http://th03.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2011/232/c/b/bodybuilder_21_by_stonepiler-d478dwu.jpg

Saigo no hibana2 votes

Whoa whoa whoa. Lets all think for a second about what environment ALL champions are fighting in from our perspective. They're all fighting on summoner's rift. Every one of them. While it's true there are other maps, SR is the focus of the game and lore. When you consider that, a bikini on someone who's used to fighting in the frigid cold, or near nudity on a man who fights in similar conditions and can literally refuse to die, seem reasonable on Summoner's rift.

Criomhthann4 votes

A Bikini would never be appropriate on SR or frankly, ANY environment where sharp metal objects are flying at you at great speeds. This shouldn't even need to be said, considering the distribution of organs in the body, having something that only covers your ass and titties is going to completely useless for any attack not targeting either. Literally worthless for defending the vast majority of your body from attack.

In warm or moderate environments, plate is almost always going to be the best armor available. In extremely hot or extremely cold environments, or environments where mobility is heavily restricted (swamps and the like) lighter forms of armor reign supreme.

DaddysDillDough2 votes

it would be if you weren't a b****

Criomhthann2 votes

Not being a b** grants one a magical barrier that stops all forms on incoming fire that would otherwise shred your poorly armored arse I hear.

How? Who cares? Fucking wizards, how do they work?

Xy0OXOKPUg3 votes

Flame me all you want but I wholeheartedly disagree with your point of view. Even muscle-bound Conan the Barbarian layered up in animal skins before venturing into the frozen wastes of his world. I think Sejuani looks way better since her VU. The bikini just did not make any sense at all. The idea that anyone is as exposed as Gragas, Tryndamere, or Ashe out in the truly frozen parts of the Freljord is utterly ridiculous. That's where the term exposure comes from, your skin and, later, body are destroyed by high and low temperatures, wind carrying abrasive materials (like ice, snow), and water which carries away body heat and causes hypothermia.

I've played Ashe since I began on League, but I have always held the opinion that her outfit is poorly designed for the environment she's said to inhabit. I chalked it up to teenage sexual fantasy and ignored it until now. If you're trying to argue that there is machismo in being nude in the arctic, I have to disagree with you. I would see every Freljord champion clad in fur and light metal armor before I would want to see the return of Bikini-mail Sejuani. I'll point at the new skin for Quinn. Has some problems but overall, that is what I'd want to wear in a cold combat environment. It's sensible, protects from the elements, protects from swords.

No hate, just disagree.

Of course you disagree... because you're wrong. And he's made a solid, inarguable case on top of it.

What's more, is that both you and IronStylus are being heterosexist (not to mention hilariously beta, but that's another discussion entirely). You're assuming there are no bisexual or lesbian League of Legends players who would want to see Sejuani and Caitlyn in skimpy clothing.

Criomhthann8 votes

Of course you disagree... because you're wrong. And he's made a solid, inarguable case on top of it.

Obviously someone who begins their post with a statement that doesn't follow is well qualified to judge what is and is not a "solid, inarguable case."

I'm going to go out on a not so absurd limb here and guess that your definition of a "solid, inarguable case" is "any proposition which is consistent with what I hold to be true." You are clearly so "alpha" that reality itself is your bitch, and will contort itself whatever you desire.

What's more, is that both you and IronStylus are being heterosexist (not to mention hilariously beta, but that's another discussion entirely). You're assuming there are no bisexual or lesbian League of Legends players who would want to see Sejuani and Caitlyn in skimpy clothing.

I agree, it is completely beta and heterosexist to argue that champions should be designed to be consistent with their environments (both natural and social) rather than around what people can fap to. It is very clearly an objective fact that included in every Riot artists employment contract that they exist to produce material we can fap to and that everyone who disagrees with this is unintelligent and beta.

Gixia3 votes

Not gonna really touch your points on Sejuani, because much as I like Sejuani's VU and consider it an improvement, I can't deny your points about the male Freljord champions.

That said, I am going to immediately dismiss your arguments considering a potential Caitlyn VU as invalid, and this is why.

All those pictures you linked? Those may be officers, and they may be women, but they are not combat-ready. Maybe a woman officer working a deskjob or participating in a formal parade may dress like that, but I can guaran-damn-tee you, when a female officer is actually going out on an investigation or into a combat zone, they wear pants. Proper shoes too.

darkdill2 votes

TL;DR?

redniwediS8 votes

This is one of those posts where if you're not interested in the long version you won't be interested in the summary.

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