@Riot, Some Time Has Passed. Are You Ready To Discuss Riot's Reasoning Behind The Lore Retcon?

Impetual·Dec 1, 2015·5 votes·1,508 views

From a business perspective, I'd be really interested to hear about the information and decisions that led to the retcon decision.

I'm not trying to instigate any kind of hate. I just want to know more about how the retcon decision was made.

I might be a bit off-base here, but I feel like us players deserve at least that much.

I'm not asking for Riot to change anything about their game, I just want a detailed explanation for their lore retcon.

Why did it need to happen, and what have we gained from it? Riot please, respond.

20 Comments

GreenLoreDec 1, 20153 votes

They released the devblog and did talk about it directly afterwards.-.-

Basically the IoW as a whole was too restricting. Summoners were quite powerful(not allmighty,but still more powerful than any other single nation) and overall it felt cheap to always need to get some kind of justification of how the champs get around the restrictions of the IoW and if that gets done over and over again,the IoW itself starts to feel useless/incompetent anyway,but always settling the problems in the league also feels rather anticlimatic. And well,where is the point in having the IoW if it gets ignored by everyone 90% of the time?

Not to mention that Gameplay being tied directly to the lore is also a bit restricting. I mean Gangplank can hardly hide from the rest of the world if he fights in the league.

SharjoDec 1, 20152 votes

Problem is Greenlore that Impetual has already stated that he/she/however they identify doesn't give much credence to the dev blog.

GreenLoreDec 1, 20152 votes

Yeah,mostly because it just doesn't give him the answer he wants....

SharjoDec 1, 20153 votes

Yep.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/creative-spotlight/dev-blog-exploring-runeterra

Just gonna leave this here. Impetual your answers lay within, whether you want to accept them or not. Riot's said all they're gonna say on the subject, and you simply ignoring what's already been said because it's not what you want to hear isn't going to change that.

Sneak DogDec 1, 20151 votes

There's at least one factually wrong argument for the retcon in there. Seems a valid reason to not give much credence.

GreenLoreDec 1, 20151 votes

And which one are you talking about?

Sneak DogDec 1, 20151 votes

Furthermore, the very idea of all-powerful Summoners made Champions little more than puppets manipulated by godlike powers.

Summoners were not all-powerful on the champion power scale, as shown and described. They were not puppet-mastering champions.

GreenLoreDec 1, 20152 votes

If the summoner is not in control of the champion,then that creates a plot hole with Nocturne,since Noc hates the summoners,so there is literally no reason for him to obey them(and they were afraid of killing him,so you can't say that he was scared of getting killed)

Also they are of course a bit exaggerating when they talk about all-powerful summoners,its just a way of speaking to make clear that the summoners were so powerful that they restricted the whole story telling.

Sneak DogDec 1, 20151 votes

Also they are of course a bit exaggerating when they talk about all-powerful summoners,its just a way of speaking to make clear that the summoners were so powerful that they restricted the whole story telling.

Why would they need to exaggerate? Why not just stick to the truth, tell the complete reasoning and if it's sound, then the sensible people in the community will understand. (I fear a lot will just ignore the reasoning whatever it is and look at the result alone.)

The need to exaggerate is already suspicious to me. I wonder why you would exaggarate in the first place.

There's two given arguments: The premise felt limiting and there were characters that weren't champions, but were powerful enough to be main characters.

So my options are:

I don't put much stock into the dev blog and believe narrative has more arguments they just didn't communicate.
I believe that these two arguments are enough to warrant retconning anything and everything.
I'm wrong in my reasoning somewhere.

I'm currently sticking to the first option.

GreenLoreDec 2, 20152 votes

It's a matter of speech to make their point clear: That the summoners were simply too strong and that is a fact.

Also you are completely ignoring my first point that the summoners were indeed in control of the champ(during battle on the SR),since Nocturnes presence wouldn't make sense otherwise.

And its not like those were the only reasons they mentioned. They also felt it was restricting in that they had to give every champ a reason to be in the league(and looking at some of the newer champs I can understand why this would have been a problem eventually) and that having pretty much all of the champs cramped up in one place felt like it would make the world a bit too small.

Sneak DogDec 2, 20151 votes

They also felt it was restricting in that they had to give every champ a reason to be in the league(and looking at some of the newer champs I can understand why this would have been a problem eventually)

This is the premise feeling limited. Not having this premise is also a problem for a bunch of older champions that relied on the IoW for their story. The new champions were simply written for a different world, so obivously they wouldn't fit in the old.

and that having pretty much all of the champs cramped up in one place felt like it would make the world a bit too small.

Wait, all characters having one thing in common to, in the end, tell one big story is a bad thing? Isn't that just a style of storytelling? Isn't that also not just the premise feeling limited?

GreenLoreDec 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sneak Dog,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=XqWPOebJ,comment-id=0002000000000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-02T00:34:41.335+0000)

This is the premise feeling limited. Not having this premise is also a problem for a bunch of older champions that relied on the IoW for their story. The new champions were simply written for a different world, so obivously they wouldn't fit in the old.

The thing is that overall it simply started to feel repetitive. There were so many champs who joined to kill someone(even though they'd never be allowed to do that for real),who joined just because they were different(even though i don't see how that leads to them joining a blood sport where you kill each other over and over again),to gain a certain favor from the IoW(which would mean that they could never achieve their goals or they wouldn't have a reason to continue fighting) or just to represent their city state(which is pretty much the most solid reason)

And well,the champs whose story depended on the IoW could be adjusted to fit the new lore without changing their background that much. Kayle and morgana could still have their war in their own world Lee sin could have been a mage whose power malfunctioned Orianna died due to something else(the robotic one can fight,so that she won't die a second time) Jax could be still the champion of a tournament/arena Not saying these lores will turn out like this,but its not like these story aspects were only possible thanks to the league...

Wait, all characters having one thing in common to, in the end, tell one big story is a bad thing? Isn't that just a style of storytelling? Isn't that also not just the premise feeling limited?

But they don't tell a single story. There are over a hundred champions in the game and the storys mainly focus on the champions,not the IoW.

Sneak DogDec 2, 20152 votes

And well,the champs whose story depended on the IoW could be adjusted to fit the new lore without changing their background that much.

A lot of the stories were only so good because of the league. Jax just being king of some local tournament, Kayle asking help from just a random mage and Morgana some (probably other) random mage, Cho'Gath corrupting some random mages, those stories are not as strong.

They'll just get a different story. That's fine. the new champions would've had a different story for the old world too. They might just get a new character too, but that isn't necessarily the case. When it is though, I've an issue with it. (But I think that's outside the scope of this discussion?)

The thing is that overall it simply started to feel repetitive.

What you describe is exactly the premise feeling limited. It felt like it was limiting the stories Riot was telling.

It didn't have to. They could've not used the IoW as conclusion of every single background story they made. But they did, so it felt limiting.

But they don't tell a single story. There are over a hundred champions in the game and the storys mainly focus on the champions,not the IoW.

All the old stories were working towards them being in the IoW and being involved in the grand IoW storyline.

Now they're all separate stories, connected by nothing but being in the same world. Even that is at times questionable, as Riot has insisted on making factions of the world be isolated. (A bilgerat, inhabitant of the most infamous port, might've not heard of Demacia?)

It still boils down to the premise feeling limiting and there were non-champion characters powerful enough to be main characters. Those're the two arguments the retcon was based on.

DreamspitterDec 3, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sneak Dog,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=XqWPOebJ,comment-id=000200000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-02T11:37:40.160+0000)

Now they're all separate stories, connected by nothing but being in the same world. Even that is at times questionable, as Riot has insisted on making factions of the world be isolated. (A bilgerat, inhabitant of the most infamous port, might've not heard of Demacia?)

It still boils down to the premise feeling limiting and there were non-champion characters powerful enough to be main characters. Those're the two arguments the retcon was based on.

REMEMBER - a Demacian and Noxian legion tried engaging on each other. The Institute of War dropped a NEXUS ON THEM. Now they had a little help from Zilean in understanding time magic, but the Nexus explosion froze the forces in TIME.

It took about a month to extract all of the soldiers one at a time, carefully insuring they wouldnt suffer Chrono-displasia.

But that was a battle that SHOULD have happened.

But UBER magic stopped it.

Now true, they mentioned the spell was dangerous. It could of had devastating environmental impact (ala a nuclear weapon which the Rune Wars were metaphor for). A lot could have gone wrong, but they did what they thought was necessary, while at the same time claiming not to be a government or military force.

Now if Brand was to be believed with what he said about the League.....I'm not sure that I would believe the IoW.

Sneak DogDec 2, 20151 votes

To your other point.

They bound him to a nexus fragment, trapping him in the physical world. As punishment for his crimes, they allowed summoners to call upon Nocturne in League matches, bending his will to the summoners he hates and creating his own personal nightmare.

Nocturne is one of the few actually controlled champions. It's also quite noted that he was systematically murdering summoners while Nocturne was in his element. When taken out of his home plane, he was able to be subdued.

Yes, he was controlled. I'm honestly not even sure how, as his lore is inconsistent with other pieces of the lore. There summoning is described as melding minds, which would give Nocturne good control over what he wanted to do while summoned.

GreenLoreDec 2, 20151 votes

Which just shows that the devblog is right about the summoners controlling the champion. It might not be direct mind control,but if the summoner wants the champion to make a funny little dance for him,then the champion will obey. If the summoner wants swain to just run into the enemy team without mana,then swain will obey.

If I remember correctly the control of the summoner is pretty much like "the champion suddenly feels the urge to do exactly what the summoner wants,but does it their own way",which still boils down to "the summoner is the one in control"

Sneak DogDec 2, 20151 votes

I think this one lore is disjoint with the rest of the old lore. From memory, the JoJ explained summoner and champion melded minds and coöperated. Nocturnes lore directly opposes this notion.

Other champions, like Cho'Gath, used this notion. Cho'Gath would actively corrupt summoners. Kassadin would recruit them to his cause. A lot of the champions would just talk to you.

I think using a single example that may have been inconsistent with the rest of the lore isn't a great argument to retcon the entire premise. I'd retcon Nocturnes lore based on that.

L RayquazaDec 2, 20152 votes

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/img/champion/splash/Trundle_3.jpg well, they killed my first champ

Sneak DogDec 1, 20151 votes

Riot is rather reluctant about this. They released a dev blog, with some shaky reasoning (at least one argument that was plain false), and now consider it done.

On top of that, narrative doesn't talk about what they do and don't retcon past the IoW. The answer seems to be _everything they dislike. _ Not a great attitude it'd seem to me. At least one champion already got removed.

Though, I don't think it's fair to ask what we gained from it. The new lore hasn't even properly started. All you're going to get is that they've some more freedom in what they write and that the summoners no longer take a lot of the attention, which can now go to champions.

RaptorKarrDec 1, 20151 votes

From what I understood it is they couldn't do much Lore wise since Summoners were so OP that they could any conflict they wanted too with a snap of their fingers, and that they could bind someone like Aatrox to their will who is basically some kind of war god.