Illaoi calls Kindred a 'Foolish spirit' ?

NA Darklarik·Nov 18, 2015·3 votes·3,261 views

I mean, wtf? I thought was know world wide as DEATH itself, the personification of it. The grim ******* reaper. Kindred themselves say they are know in the west and east. In Karthus's lore it talks about 'The tally-men of Kindred'.

It sure dosent seem like some 'Spirit' like is to Feljord or is in Ionia.

Why would she call them a foolish spirit? Is Death a spirit to her? I always thought it more of a existential truth or primordial force.

What gives?

24 Comments

SharjoNov 18, 20158 votes

Well Illaoi's all about Nagakabouros, who is everything. In Illaoi's eyes Kindred's just another part of the Flow; another spirit in the great vortex that is Nagakabouros. In that way Kindred would be less important to Illaoi than the mighty god since the religious/Buhric interpretation here would be that Kindred is an agent of Nagakabouros.

So in essence Illaoi thinks her god's just higher on the food chain than Kindred, and as a servant of God who cares what death says?

NA DarklarikNov 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Well Illaoi's all about Nagakabouros, who is everything. In Illaoi's eyes Kindred's just another part of the Flow; another spirit in the great vortex that is Nagakabouros. In that way Kindred would be less important to Illaoi than the mighty god since the religious/Buhric interpretation here would be that Kindred is an agent of Nagakabouros.

So in essence Illaoi thinks her god's just higher on the food chain than Kindred, and as a servant of God who cares what death says?

That would be an interesting point of view. I still think it makes her look like a fool. Kindred will be around when all has died, even her god. Illaoi will at some point be claimed by Kindred as well, no god will shield her from that.

SharjoNov 19, 20152 votes

Yes but in the grand scheme of things Illaoi believes everything is part of the Maelstrom that is Nagakabouros. Nagakabouros is everything and I'd imagine eternal too, so the finality of death isn't really all that concerning for Illaoi. If she dies she'll die in motion, and if her soul is worthy it'll find a new form. Kindred is just an agent that helps the process along, but said process is, at least to Illaoi, never ending. Nagakabouros won't die and everything will keep going. This is all based on Illaoi's, and likely her religion's beliefs about how the universe works.

It's kinda like Brahman in Hinduism, where in some interpretations Brahman is pretty much everything and the core thing that binds every aspect of the universe together. Nagakabouros is similar in that she too links everything together across all of creation and keeps everything going. "All things are Nagakabouros" is quite literal in that sense, if you believe in such things. Illaoi certainly does.

NA DarklarikNov 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Do gods die?

That aside, from her dialogue, she seems to imply reincarnation exists.

Well, in god of war they do :v Ascendants are gods too, and im pretty sure they can be killed. Elise's Spider god, can also be slain. God/s is a relative term.

{quoted}

Yes but in the grand scheme of things Illaoi believes everything is part of the Maelstrom that is Nagakabouros. Nagakabouros is everything and I'd imagine eternal too, so the finality of death isn't really all that concerning for Illaoi. If she dies she'll die in motion, and if her soul is worthy it'll find a new form. Kindred is just an agent that helps the process along, but said process is, at least to Illaoi, never ending. Nagakabouros won't die and everything will keep going. This is all based on Illaoi's, and likely her religion's beliefs about how the universe works.

It's kinda like Brahman in Hinduism, where in some interpretations Brahman is pretty much everything and the core thing that binds every aspect of the universe together. Nagakabouros is similar in that she too links everything together across all of creation and keeps everything going. "All things are Nagakabouros" is quite literal in that sense, if you believe in such things. Illaoi certainly does.

im going to take the word of the Reaper above that of an over idealistic Priestess tho. Kindred “There are always more,” she whispered. “Until the day there is only Kindred.” Kindred is clearly implying that one day, all things will end. Also, Illaoi is too obsessed with life that she has very little respect for Death.

Like in her quotes to the Freljordians "Your people seek a worthy death. Mine, a worthy life.", is countered by Kindred's "How one dies, shows how one lived" Thus implying a worthy death is achieved by a worthy life. It surprised me that Illaoi dosent understand this concept, that one and the other are the same, Life - Death, that one is more important, when the two are the same coin. She seems to have a blatant disregard for the importance of Death from calling Kindred a spirit to thinking that a worthy death isnt what one should aspire too. Her short sightness is clearly a cause of her zealous nature, she _thinks _ she has all the answers, like _any _ religious nut does.

SharjoNov 19, 20152 votes

Well, in god of war they do :v Ascendants are gods too, and im pretty sure they can be killed. Elise's Spider god, can also be slain. God/s is a relative term.

This ain't God of War son! And let's not forget that the only reference for killing "Gods" we have in League is the gameplay, which isn't canon. While I agree that Ascendants probably can die that doesn't mean that the powers that the Ascended are born from can also die.

Her short sightness is clearly a cause of her zealous nature, she thinks she has all the answers, like any religious nut does.

See that's a lot of assumption, and it's also indicative of a very anti-religious sentiment from yourself, which then makes me think you don't like Illaoi anyone because she's so fervently religious, and you're not so much raising a question as challenging her beliefs with your own. Apologies on my behalf if that's just me fucking things up and not understanding you, but either way here's may take:

Illaoi's religion is one that seemingly believes in a cyclical existence, not a linear one. For them, the universe goes on and on continuously, and everything exists in cycles as part of the great flow. Death is simply a part of that, a force within the flow that allows things to keep progressing in the cycle. Death is change in itself, so Illaoi's definetly not dismissive of death, on the contrary, she's totally accepting of death and that it will inevitably come, but she strongly believes that death isn't final in the grand scheme of things. Sure she may die, but she will still be a part of the flow, and if she herself is strong enough she'll find her way back to the land of the living in a new form.

Going from the Hinduism example again, if Nagakabouros is Brahman then Kindred is Vishnu. The destroyer. The one who allows for things to be remade by bringing an end to them. As such Kindred is likely highly important in the grand scheme of this religion as a major element of the flow, and Illaoi isn't dismissive of this. That's why she says "Your people seek a worthy death, mine a worthy life", because in the end she believes that living your life the way you want, free of restrictions and true to yourself, is the way one is supposed to live naturally, while the construct of society are falsehoods that bind people and take away that freedom they were born with.

You can't control your death in most circumstances, and when Illaoi talks about death to Freljordians she's really saying "Why waste your life chasing the inevitable? Just live! Live a worthy life so that your death will be remembered regardless!" and if we examine what Kindred says in "How one dies, shows how one lived", then we see people who seek a worthy death lived their lives chasing death in the hopes of glory in the afterlife. Illaoi believes that such a way of life is short sighted, as we'll all die eventually.

"Even if a die, I die in motion."

Illaoi's whole thing is just go and live your life the way you want. Death is inevitable. Living is optional. She'd rather people lived freely than be shackled by rules, laws or a fear of death.

NA DarklarikNov 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This ain't God of War son! And let's not forget that the only reference for killing "Gods" we have in League is the gameplay, which isn't canon. While I agree that Ascendants probably can die that doesn't mean that the powers that the Ascended are born from can also die.

See that's a lot of assumption, and it's also indicative of a very anti-religious sentiment from yourself, which then makes me think you don't like Illaoi anyone because she's so fervently religious, and you're not so much raising a question as challenging her beliefs with your own. Apologies on my behalf if that's just me fucking things up and not understanding you, but either way here's may take:

I really like Illaoi, her character and her kit, and im not anti-religious.
Gonna use as an example, dude chases after Death, but ill be damn if he aint living a glorious life inbetween, slaying every great beast imaginable, going from one adventure to another fearlessly (have you READ shadow and fortune?). He looks to be living a good life to me. Point is you cant seek one without the other. In trying to do one, you will inevitably do the other. If spend your time and energy trying to live a good life, you will find a good death. If you spend your time and energy trying to find a good death, you will live a good life.

If youve seen game of thrones, then take the following example: Melisandre. Illaoi is, personality wise, very much like Melisandre (They even share a similar God if you really think of it, Nagakeborous fits the description of the lord of light in almost everything except the 'burn people alive as sacrifices' part). They are both confident and powerful as hell, and both take there confidence from their God which they belive gives them all the answers. Illaoi says herself "It is my burden to carry an eye of god. It my privilege to see the truth." but at the same times says "It is my burden to carry an eye of god. It my privilege to see the truth." She has a all knowing God that speaks to her things she cant fully understand. She has all the answers, but she cant comprehend them and might misinterpret them, exactly as Melisandre does in the GOT. They both also tend to undermine the God of Death. Melisandre was also wrong in thinking Stannis would be Azor Ahai (its either Dany or Jon snow), she read the sings wrong, but at the time she was damn sure of herself and when she found out she was wrong her self confidence visibly plummeted. im wouldent be surprised if Illaoi is the same, shes arrogant for the same reasons.

{quoted}

Then again

#What IS a God?

Well acording to Riot's little QA and the dev blog on Kindred, Kindred literally is death personified. They are the grim reaper of the world of League of Legends, the one and only Death. They are more of a universal force than a spirit. You dont call death a spirit.

DreamspitterNov 20, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=NA Darklarik,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=TXukcLKR,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-20T03:49:17.209+0000) Well acording to Riot's little QA and the dev blog on Kindred, Kindred literally is death personified. They are the grim reaper of the world of League of Legends, the one and only Death. They are more of a universal force than a spirit. You dont call death a spirit.

#But that begs the question....

What exactly does a Grim Reaper DO anyway?

Yeah, yeah, you may say it's in the name. But ....suppose they took exactly 1 day off. Or even the span of an hour.

###What would happen?

Would no one die?

So um, if some guy in Bilgewater is decapitated, would he stay alive even though there's no logical reason for him to be able to do so?

I don't know, that depends on just how magical the universe is and what that really means. Then again this also depends on what you suppose "personified" means. Does it mean that Death REALLY acts, thinks, feels, has opinions, and does things (like a "person") on all places where life exists?

#Is it like Warhammer 40,000?

Video should be viewed from around 10min30s to 15min -it's already queued up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG7VvMGw6w0#T=10min31s

The Warhammer 40k setting has what's called "the Warp", that horrible nightmarish realm from which the Chaos Gods, daemons, Enslavers, and other things come. But unlike the Void of League of Legends it's not entirely foreign and alien. In fact, it is a psychic realm in which all beings with "souls" have a presence. Just by EXISTING their thoughts and emotions flow into it, and pollute what was once a blank utterly empty realm that was actually SAFE to use for faster than light travel. EVERYTHING goes in there. Every thought, fear, nightmare, and dream.

But just as the minds of all beings with even the weakest psychic potential influence the Warp and cause things to come into existence within them, the Warp also influences the physical world. The Eldar for example set out, and as a race forged their OWN Gods as they wanted them to exist. The Gods gained free will, and were able to use their powers to help and sustain those that created them. However, occasionally, things from the Warp can pass into our reality all on their own-and so the battle against daemons is in fact...the battle of mortal beings against THEMSELVES. Mortal beings thoughts, feelings, and ideas about Life & Death, and cycles coalesce from across time and space to form the Chaos God, Nurgle. Nurgle's Rot spreads across the stars, and so does all kinds of beyond horrific plagues, diseases, ONLY because he WILLS it. Before his "personification" only NORMAL evolved diseases existed and not psychic (supernatural) ones.

But, if ALL life in the 40k universe were to die off, then Nurgle and the other Gods would starve with nothing to feed them -though they are so immensely powerful they might just persist for strange eons. Maybe long enough... to create twisted life of their own.

#But what if....

The personification that results in Kindred or Tahm Kench....is just a metaphor?

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/i2cPoBs4-is-tahm-kench-even-real

{quoted}

Sure you can say that he's a playable character on the Rift but that doesn't mean that he's real. Remember the Rift doesn't exist in Runeterra. The game and lore are separate from each other now. The Rift we play on exists as an almost warped mirror of Runeterra that exists solely that we can play an absurd/impossible game when you try to justify it with the current lore. While I originally disliked the idea of the retcon, perhaps it allows us to play a character that doesn't actually explicitly exist (flesh and blood) in the world of Runeterra.

This is League of LEGENDS after all. Braum's story takes the form of tall tales, and folk heroes. Twitch's story takes the form of urban legends. While it is a world with magical academies, and islands of undeath -not all myths have to be true, nor is the setting one in which it's impossible to having them.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllMythsAreTrue

Personally I hope that we don't have characters experience Tahm Kench, and Kindred in overt ways -though I'm fine with characters hearing or telling stories about them.

DreamspitterNov 19, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=NA Darklarik,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=TXukcLKR,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-19T06:17:46.341+0000)

Well, in god of war they do :v Ascendants are gods too, and im pretty sure they can be killed. Elise's Spider god, can also be slain. God/s is a relative term.

im going to take the word of the Reaper above that of an over idealistic Priestess tho. “There are always more,” she whispered. “Until the day there is only Kindred.” Kindred is clearly implying that one day, all things will end. Also, Illaoi is too obsessed with life that she has very little respect for Death.

Like in her quotes to the Freljordians "Your people seek a worthy death. Mine, a worthy life.", is countered by Kindred's "How one dies, shows how one lived" Thus implying a worthy death is achieved by a worthy life. It surprised me that Illaoi dosent understand this concept, that one and the other are the same, Life - Death, that one is more important, when the two are the same coin. She seems to have a blatant disregard for the importance of Death from calling Kindred a spirit to thinking that a worthy death isnt what one should aspire too. Her short sightness is clearly a cause of her zealous nature, she _thinks _ she has all the answers, like _any _ religious nut does.

Then again

#What IS a God?

This is an important question. Now in some settings, very rarely, a hero can in fact slay a deity -in others they're unassailable. In some settings a mortal can become a deity, which was the goal of Shuriman Ascension (although you can argue they are only demigods). Kindred in their Q&A was stated to be "omnipresent" which means they are in fact everywhere at the same time. That's usually something people only ascribe to a deity.

But....

Consider this: if Kindred could be likened to being THE "Death God" of the setting then who or what....is THE "Life God"? Why does the universe exist AT ALL?

What if Kindred and Nagakaborous are opposing forces?

Now, of course as her passive states she is a "Prophet of an Elder God", much as Malzahar is a "Prophet of the Void". Forces from within, or outside of the universe contact mortals and give them things, abilities, and information. But at the same time....nothing says that these Entities cannot or do not lie to anyone. Deities as in D&D may give biased answers to any questions, because the results of doing so benefit them or their goals in some way. Beyond that, they are not mortal beings, nor do they think like them. In fact, it could be that Kindred is so single minded that they cannot conceive of any possible ultimate outcome except the death of the universe itself.

DreamspitterNov 19, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=NA Darklarik,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=TXukcLKR,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-11-19T02:23:45.711+0000)

That would be an interesting point of view. I still think it makes her look like a fool. Kindred will be around when all has died, even her god. Illaoi will at some point be claimed by Kindred as well, no god will shield her from that.

Do gods die?

That aside, from her dialogue, she seems to imply reincarnation exists.

GreenLoreNov 20, 20151 votes

Well if everything eventually dies,then that would apply to kindred as well eventually. What if Kindred dies before Nagakabouros?

MaplecrestNov 25, 20151 votes

Kindred cannot die as they are the literal personification of Entropy.

Entropy is eternal and eventually consumes all.

NA DarklarikNov 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Well if everything eventually dies,then that would apply to kindred as well eventually. What if Kindred dies before Nagakabouros?

In most almost all incarnations where Death is personified, it is told that they (Death) will be the only thing that remains when the universe ends. Kindred says the same in their lore.

DreamspitterNov 19, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=NA Darklarik,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=TXukcLKR,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-11-18T21:54:13.417+0000)

I mean, wtf? I thought was know world wide as DEATH itself, the personification of it. The grim ******* reaper. Kindred themselves say they are know in the west and east. In Karthus's lore it talks about 'The tally-men of Kindred'.

It sure dosent seem like some 'Spirit' like is to Feljord or is in Ionia.

Why would she call them a foolish spirit? Is Death a spirit to her? I always thought it more of a existential truth or primordial force.

What gives?

They call Yordles spirits too, and claim to know Aatrox "True Name". I suspect they may know much more about the setting, than the players - but not all has been revealed yet.

Ebonmaw DragonNov 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

They call Yordles spirits too, and claim to know Aatrox "True Name". I suspect they may know much more about the setting, than the players - but not all has been revealed yet.

She doesnt call the yordles spirits... she says that the Yordles belive in spirits.

DreamspitterNov 19, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ebonmaw Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=TXukcLKR,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-11-19T00:58:10.317+0000)

She doesnt call the yordles spirits... she says that the Yordles belive in spirits.

Taunting an enemy Yordle "Why would I need a spirit's help? I am guided by Nagakabouros." "Little one, I don't need empathy. Seek those who do." "Go back to where men are weak, and need your inspiration."

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Illaoi

That doesnt sound like what you said at all.

Ebonmaw DragonNov 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Illaoi

That doesnt sound like what you said at all.

"Why would I need a spirit's help? I am guided by Nagakabouros."

For what i understood about that quote, it says something like this: "Yordles need the help of the spirits, but i dont"

DreamspitterNov 19, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ebonmaw Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=TXukcLKR,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-19T01:06:30.399+0000)

"Why would I need a spirit's help? I am guided by Nagakabouros."

For what i understood about that quote, it says something like this: "Yordles need the help of the spirits, but i dont"

But where is that idea coming from?

Ebonmaw DragonNov 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

But where is that idea coming from?

Well, it makes more sense that calling them spirits... because spirits dont go to schools, build robots, weapons, or have cities.

Before the lore changes, they had the "Mothership", maybe Riot will change the "Mothership" with some kind of spirit?

DreamspitterNov 19, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ebonmaw Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=TXukcLKR,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-19T01:22:10.451+0000)

Well, it makes more sense that calling them spirits... because spirits dont go to schools, build robots, weapons, or have cities.

Before the lore changes, they had the "Mothership", maybe Riot will change the "Mothership" with some kind of spirit?

That's what you think.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurMonstersAreDifferent

:^)

SharjoNov 19, 20151 votes

I'd wager that lore changes around the yordles concern whatever the yordles believe their primary deity is. In the old lore they had the Mothership...for some reason. Still don't understand that thing. In the new lore they may have some yordle god that guides and drives them. In that sense Illaoi would see such a god in such a way "Many gods ask for worship. They are weak gods". She'd probably view it as inferior to Nagakabouros or simply a part of the great flow that Nagakabouros embodies.

RalanrNov 19, 20151 votes

Wait...Lulu entered the fey world. Though since this may be retconed, Lulu could be a Yordle going back to her roots.

Star GuardíanNov 19, 20151 votes

Kindred is most definitely a native spirit of Runeterra.

One thing I'd like to add is that Bard isn't isolated to Iona and it (I use it instead of he on purpose) is not a spirit. It is a celestial being who's existence is probably incomprehensible to mere Runeterrans.

DreamspitterNov 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Kindred is most definitely a native spirit of Runeterra.

One thing I'd like to add is that Bard isn't isolated to Iona and it (I use it instead of he on purpose) is not a spirit. It is a celestial being who's existence is probably incomprehensible to mere Runeterrans.

And what is the difference between a Celestial and a Spirit?

Star GuardíanNov 19, 20151 votes

From what I understand, Kindred is native to Runeterra. Like any other Runeterran (Darius, Graves etc.) it lives there and is bound there.

As for Bard, It is not of Runeterra. It exists on a universal ( maybe even multiversal) scale. He can travel anywhere from Runeterra to the Void and beyond.

As for the difference between spirit and a celestial. I'm guessing a spirit is essentialy a soul bound to Runeterra who's powers vary and manifest in different ways. I think Hec, Khalistan and some other champs are spirits.( im not sure tho). A celestial on the other hand is a being who exists on a larger scale.

These are just my speculations based off info I found on the forums.