Zoe is more of a chaotic good character whereas traditional tricksters are chaotic evil evil/neutral

Rebonack··8 votes·853 views

So, hang on just a sec here.

Zoe waltzes into a town and does some magical stuff, spooking the population. The villagers call for guards, since they believe her to be some kind of malevolent entity. Given that she has god-like power, these guards pose no threat to her what so ever. She could have just floated up into the air outside of spear throwing range. Or put them all to sleep, since that's a thing we learned she could do just a few paragraphs prior. Instead of taking a course of action to protect others at the expense of self (like a Good character would typically do) she immediately resorts to overwhelming lethal force.

Now at this point we come to muddled point. From the story it sounds like she nuked the whole town off the face of the planet. According to a Rioter, she only killed the guards and leveled their barracks/watchtower. If she did the former, that is unquestionably an Evil act. The latter is Neutral at best, since she was still 'technically' acting in self defense, even if her response was massively unreasonable. But that isn't considering that the barracks probably had innocent people in them who weren't threatening Zoe. Not to mention anyone who might have gotten vaporized for the capital crime of standing too close to Zoe's target.

This is justified by: 'Zoe serves the bigger picture, aka humanity as a whole, and sometimes helping humanity happens at the expense of individuals.'

Problem is, 'The Ends Justifies the Means' isn't a Good philosophy. It's Lawful Evil. Not only is it useful for getting otherwise Good people to do Evil things, more insidiously it degrades the value of an individual life into nothing more than a numbers game. People are considered collectively and the value of a single person simply doesn't matter. That's a gross dismissal of the value of a person, which is one of the hallmarks of Evil.

This is quite consistent with the behavior we've seen so far out of the Space Parasites, though. They claim to be the 'Good Guys' and they claim to be serving the 'Greater Good' of the cosmos as a whole, but from our end they seem like tyrants and not much else. Why should I believe them when they say they have everyone's best interests at heart? They sure don't act like it.

16 Comments

Ralanr5 votes

Honestly I saw Zoe as chaotic neutral.

Rebonack4 votes

{quoted}

Honestly I saw Zoe as chaotic neutral.

I can understand that argument if we're operating under the assumption that Zoe is literally unaware of the fact that her magic can harm people 'Haha! Pretending like magic hurts!'.

The Bardic Gay4 votes

Riot should really stop trying to apply DnD alignment to their characters, it always lead to problems, partly because the Alignment system is hotly debated to begin with.

You also forgot that aside from murdering the fuck out of those guards, Zoe unearthed what we know is the equivalent to a WMD and just sorta left it there. Ryze's lore paints a pretty picture about what happens when people get their hands on world runes. It's a lot of screaming, dying, and attempted genocide with a dash of possible apocalypse. So forgive me if I don't think a character who thinks one being unearthed is "Funny" is chaotic good.

Rebonack2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Meep Slaver,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=NWpdaWex,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-11-30T18:12:02.256+0000)

Riot should really stop trying to apply DnD alignment to their characters, it always lead to problems, partly because the Alignment system is hotly debated to begin with.

Most of the debate typically traces back to whether or not alignments are subjective (as in 2e) or objective (as in basically every version of D&D that isn't 2e). The world Riot has made doesn't have objective ethics, near as I can tell. In which case using terms like good and evil is absolutely meaningless.

Though in a universe with no objective elements, it makes me wonder how 'dark magic' is defined. Obviously not objectively. So what's the difference between dark magic and happy magic? Are we just talking red laser swords vs blue laser swords here?

You also forgot that aside from murdering the fuck out of those guards, Zoe unearthed what we know is the equivalent to a WMD and just sorta left it there. Ryze's lore paints a pretty picture about what happens when people get their hands on world runes. It's a lot of screaming, dying, and attempted genocide with a dash of possible apocalypse. So forgive me if I don't think a character who thinks one being unearthed is "Funny" is chaotic good.

That too, yes. I was focusing more on the personal side of things. Leaving a magical nuke sitting around where a kid might poke it and annihilate everyone in a few hundred mile radius is grossly irresponsible at the very best.

This all reminds me of the sort of jackassery some players get up to when they roll a Chaotic Neutral PC and then start doing Evil shit while vehemently insisting that their PC isn't Evil, they're just so random!

Warlord Dienekes2 votes

I’m curious. Where did the space parasites claim to be for anything other than their own aggrandizement?

Moon is trying to get worshipers for... no reason. Something about the space parasites civil war. As though humans could ever possibly effect that.

Sun is pushing Leona to burn people.

Twilight just let’s Zoe do whatever, and doesn’t even attempt to stop pointless destruction.

War is a dick by which all other dicks are measured.

Protection is... ok you have me here. Protection seems chill.

But I don’t think any have said that what they’re doing is for the benefit of anyone except Protection.

Instead, it is Rioters who attempt to make that claim for them. With, usually, very little success.

Rebonack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Dienekes,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=NWpdaWex,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-11-30T20:39:03.622+0000)

I’m curious. Where did the space parasites claim to be for anything other than their own aggrandizement?

Moon is trying to get worshipers for... no reason. Something about the space parasites civil war. As though humans could ever possibly effect that.

Sun is pushing Leona to burn people.

Twilight just let’s Zoe do whatever, and doesn’t even attempt to stop pointless destruction.

War is a dick by which all other dicks are measured.

Protection is... ok you have me here. Protection seems chill.

But I don’t think any have said that what they’re doing is for the benefit of anyone except Protection.

Instead, it is Rioters who attempt to make that claim for them. With, usually, very little success.

I'll admit I'm going off the Rioter's claims about them.

WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOO1 votes

I think warlord is misconstruing their nature.

Warlord Dienekes1 votes

I think their actions and personality traits so far revealed make them easy to misconstrue. And in no way makes them seem like they’re for any greater good.

AbiwonKenabi2 votes

The alignments have problems to begin with. Like I think of characters like Stain from My Hero Academia and...what would he be? He kills heroes so he's "Evil" right? But he does it in order to follow his ideal of creating a more just society full of true heroes, so he's "Good", maybe Chaotic Good? But he still kills people so "Neutral". The Punisher is a similar character, he only kills bad guys, but he butts heads with most heroes, so Neutral?

And that's the point. I don't think you define every character in existence as strictly "Neutral" or strictly "Chaotic". It's too restrictive, and should only really serve as a guideline.

Also, I would argue a TON of famous trickster characters were "Chaotic Good". Generally people root for the trickster characters. Maui of Polynesian myth did a lot of good for humanity. Son Wukong (from Journey to the West, not the Champion) also did a lot of good once he was travelling in service of Xuanzang, and he's one of the biggest tricksters ever. So it's really hard to generalize "most Tricksters were Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral" because they really weren't. Arguably, the characters I mentioned are more "Good" than Zoe, who is supposed to be designed to be "Chaotic Good".

The only thing a trickster has to be is "a character in a story which exhibits a great degree of intellect or secret knowledge, and uses it to play tricks or otherwise disobey normal rules and conventional behavior." The emphasis is more on the "defying conventional behavior" than anything else.

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

The alignments have problems to begin with.

The alignment system doesn't take intentions into account. They don't matter. Good and Evil are physical things in standard D&D cosmology. An Evil act is still Evil, even if your goal is to is to bring about changes that you personally believe to be desirable. Every good or evil action colors a creature's soul toward one end of the spectrum.

The confusion comes from people trying to apply subjective ethics to the alignment system, which results in a hot mess.

That's why I don't think Riot should even bother with trying to apply alignments to League champs. The universe they have created doesn't have objective ethics, so it doesn't apply.

And that's the point. I don't think you define every character in existence as strictly "Neutral" or strictly "Chaotic". It's too restrictive, and should only really serve as a guideline.

Also, I would argue a TON of famous trickster characters were "Chaotic Good". Generally people root for the trickster characters. Maui of Polynesian myth did a lot of good for humanity. Son Wukong (from Journey to the West, not the Champion) also did a lot of good once he was travelling in service of Xuanzang, and he's one of the biggest tricksters ever. So it's really hard to generalize "most Tricksters were Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral" because they really weren't. Arguably, the characters I mentioned are more "Good" than Zoe, who is supposed to be designed to be "Chaotic Good".

The only thing a trickster has to be is "a character in a story which exhibits a great degree of intellect or secret knowledge, and uses it to play tricks or otherwise disobey normal rules and conventional behavior." The emphasis is more on the "defying conventional behavior" than anything else.

I was quoting a Rioter regarding Zoe and other tricksters in the topic title.

Solidair32 votes

I don't think Riot is looking at it from that angle.

I think Zoe serves the greater Good, a la Bard.

People may die, but she is openly and actively performing her duties to cause the change that needs to happen.

Destínum4 votes

actively performing her duties

That's an exageration if I ever heard one.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

I don't think Riot is looking at it from that angle.

I think Zoe serves the greater Good, a la Bard.

People may die, but she is openly and actively performing her duties to cause the change that needs to happen.

Needs to happen according to who?

Remember, there's no objective ethics in League's universe. 'Ought' does not exist.

Solidair31 votes

Presumably whatever force drives Bard.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Presumably whatever force drives Bard.

And what force drives Bard again?

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

The D&D Alignment system is a shit system.

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