Why not just use the story for a new champion?

GigglesO·Dec 2, 2017·75 votes·1,636 views

Change a few words and boom great story for a different champion.

That way everyone can have their gay love story, and people can still have varus's heartfelt family story.

41 Comments

HowPlayGAEMDec 2, 201711 votes

Because the Social Justice MO is about removing and replacing established material and traditions, not creating their own.

The concept of a family, especially fatherhood, is hated by the LGBTQ movement and that is why the father/husband aspect of Varus was retconned and replaced with gay lovers.

I'm disappointed Riot has decided to go down this route.

Kaladin DavarDec 2, 20172 votes

Nope, salty children are just pissed varus lore was changed gay.

MysterQDec 2, 20175 votes

And 'hip' child thinks he is the most clever attacking others.

MysterQDec 2, 20178 votes

Haha, I don't know if Varus is a heartfelt family story. But yea, they could have taken this many directions.

They also could have just given gay varus a family. The fusion of minds would be slightly different, but could still work. Varus (not Valmar, but fine Valmar) sees his son is dead. Something something, rage. Goes to the temple he was protecting, Valmar/Kai/Lover tries to stop him. In rage he still says no I want to do this/hurt feelings everywhere. He jumps in, lover jumps in afterwards.

Boom, 2 people. One with rage, one with trying to save the other. Idk, it could be fleshed out.

I wonder if it matters about international release. I heard the new comic was not sent to Russia. So if they make a new champ(s), in Russia they might be confused why he has no lore. But if you stealth update an old champ lore/stealth block it, no one would no.

TalHwaDec 2, 20178 votes

My thoughts exactly. I've read DyQuill's posts on the other thread a few days ago and all, so I do understand Riot's stance. They do have an audience of enormous size and it is extremely hard to please them all. However, why was the choice Varus? I believe DyQuill actually didn't answer this question on the other thread, though I may have just missed it. They could have waited for a new champion to come out, plan around carefully, or pick a champion that's lore is actually irrelevant from love and family.

OleandervineDec 2, 20175 votes

The big thing here that I see a lot of people ignoring entirely is that a relationship between two men is still love, and Val and Kai loved each other to the point of desperate action, and Val had a deep love for his mother. So the story is still very, very much about love and family, just not a cookie cutter nuclear family. So claiming that new Varus is somehow less about love and family than old Varus is just rooted in this idea that a loving family can't be anything else but a man and woman with children.

ModAcademy KaynDec 2, 20171 votes

Hell, the first thing they tried to do after suppressing The-Darkin-Properly-Known-As-Varus, is go back to the village.

Karn BishopDec 2, 20176 votes

Irrelevant to this argument honestly and nobodys saying its not love we are however saying the new lore is bad and makes little sense on varus no matter what aspect you look at it from.

MysterQDec 2, 20172 votes

If Varus had killed the mother, it might have been amazing. But Valmar lost almost nothing. Some fans have injected a lot into the story that makes it MUCH better, but why did Riot not provide those details. So many details are lacking for me to care about the characters.

QueenpinDec 2, 20177 votes

Old Varus was rooted in loss though, and Val has not lost Kai.

No one (or at least neither TalHwa or I) is saying that the love Val has for Kai is invalid. The point of the OP's post is that Riot could have let that love stand on it's own instead of hiding the choice to finally include a gay character behind the lore of a preexisting one

GigglesODec 3, 20172 votes

{quoted}

No one (or at least neither TalHwa or I) is saying that the love Val has for Kai is invalid. The point of the OP's post is that Riot could have let that love stand on it's own instead of hiding the choice to finally include a gay character behind the lore of a preexisting one

This pretty much sums it up. I see no reason for the story of a man to have lost his entire family and sacrificed himself to be changed for the sake of change.

The story of Val and Kai easily could have stood behind another darkin character. Isn't that what darkin's (that have human components) are all about? The struggle between giving into power vs overcoming the fight.

We have Kayn that actively fights to maintain control. We have aatrox who escaped imprisonment. We had varus that gave into the darkness to avenge his family. Now we have varus that tried to save a mortally wounded lover and bother were consumed in damnation, and actively fights for control...

Both giving yourself up to the darkness to avenge family, and trying to save a mortally wounded lover can both stand on its own. To give kai and val a different story than old varus all you had to do was change the location, weapon/darkin, boom two separate stories that both stand strong. You have two different endings too.

While old varus wanted to kill the people that killed his family, he is basically as someone previously mentioned the Punisher. They could have created struggle in the story when he gets done accidentally slaughtering innocents, or even just end the story at he liked killing them, and it appears he has forever been lost to the darkness.

New varus shows an internal struggle between lovers to be together and the darkness that the one subjected them to in order to accomplish this.

Honestly before we had 3 very separate stories, now there doesn't seem to be much difference between Kayn and New Varus. Which again, we could have had a 4th darkin story, and instead we replaced varus's for "the sake of change"

nGioDec 3, 20177 votes

It's not that, so please don't play the homophobic card here. His story was never about "being in love", it was about his purpose that led him to The Rift. Varus lost love, and it set his life on course for a single purpose. The new Varus is just 2 dudes getting merged into a demon. There is no loss, or revenge, or deeper driving force to him now. The video is awesome, the lore is shit, and the "new and now with gay" feels forced.

If Riot released their first gay champion, and then made him straight it would be equally as fucking random and stupid. Needless change is needless.

GigglesODec 3, 20173 votes

Well I feel like the old story was "fuck everyone I'ma destroy them because I lost my family" New one "my love was mortally wounded, lets try to save him".

Those are two completely different stories, gay or straight. I feel like they could have created another darkin really easily with kai and val. Just move around location, and change the story between the two to be a little further away from the whole "defending against invaders" story line.

It could have even been along the lines of there was a hunting accident, and they stumbled upon a mystic artifact, if only they had known it would contain nothing but damnation. Boom, same love story, slightly different means to unlocking a darkin, we now have 4 completely different darkin characters. Best part about it is since val and kai's story is unrelated to the demons power, you could have literally made any class of champion with any powers.

MysterQDec 3, 20172 votes

fanfiction is bad. But I imagine something like two hunters killing thing. One finds a cool weapon during a quest, is explicitly warned to not use it (the warning was way to cryptic in this story). Use it because he wants power or revenge. Starts going mad. Hurts his lover. Somehow or not darkin absorbs his lover also. I don't know how you retain the hatred/revenge that Darkin want. But the main lover could definitely have a lot of internal hate and struggle for causing this to them both.

Ii disagree with your synopsis of the new story. Yes it is about love... until you realize Varus is the main character and those other two are erased in the game.

ArakadiaDec 2, 20176 votes

Old Varus absolutely needed some significant lore work.

And his new story wouldn't work on a new character without stepping all over Varus.

MysterQDec 2, 201728 votes

That is a lazy excuse.

ArakadiaDec 2, 20172 votes

"There was a problem" isn't a lazy excuse.

Darrosh JewfistDec 2, 201711 votes

Old Varus absolutely needed some significant lore work.

Old Varus story was about a father who chose to protect the temple over saving his village (and family). Then he gets corrupted by the Pool of Pallas. That's Varus' old lore in a nutshell.
New Varus' lore is about two gay lovers where one dies, the other gets a crazy idea to drag them both into the forbidden pool, and now they're a mishmash of three people. Oh, and this pool happens to be a Darkin.

The problem I feel is that Varus' old lore was EXTREMELY compatible with the new lore. It was retcon for the sake of retcon. How exactly do the two same-sex lovers add or build any connection to the rest of the league of legends? How hard was it for Riot to just make Varus (the father) and his son the 2 souls vying for dominance against the third one? How hard was it clarify that the Pool of Pallas as a Darkin?

None of that seems difficult at all. Old Varus' old didn't need significant rework at all. How much has this NEW LORE added to Varus that couldn't have been done or modified from the pre-existing lore? Would you like to clarify what exactly about old Varus needed reworking other than removing references to the retconned League of Legends/Institute of War? Would you like to explain how new Varus' lore connects to other champions other than the Darkin thing (which, as I said before, could simply be clarified as a Pool of Darkin)?

ArakadiaDec 2, 20173 votes

Okay so I'd appreciate if you could answer me two questions because I don't see a good answer for either of them.

How was Varus post corruption well designed? I really liked his actions and story before he became corrupted, but after that he was inhuman, unrelatable, and pretty boring. All he was going to do was try to ruin and end as many Noxian lives as possible before he died shortly after. There wouldn't be room for development or many interesting stories. You can't have him go do anything beyond go kill Noxians because he's "on borrowed time" and he gave up his life for revenge. So how does this flat, hateful, vengeful man without any potential lore beyond killing Noxians show up as well designed?

And second, how would Varus being the father and his son fighting the Darkin be any better then two lovers? What does that have over Kai and Valmar?

You had some questions too so I'll look at those.

How much has this NEW LORE added to Varus that couldn't have been done or modified from the pre-existing lore?

Lets say you gave us more details, information, and filled in holes like that the Pit of Pallas contained a Darkin while removing the Institute.

Varus still had nothing to his character aside from being hellbent on revenge. There was no potential for him to interact with other champions unless they were a Noxian he would want to kill. There aren't any Ionians he would have much story potential with.

I know some people related to Varus. And they thought he was a very cool character. Which works out and is understandable for post corruption Varus. The current, modern time Varus had no reasons to be liked.

Few people can relate to throwing your life away for vengeance. Varus didn't have any moral complications or ability to grow as a character. He had little to no potential outside of him committing atrocious acts on Noxians.

So yes, Varus was an exceptionally cool character. But after he gave up his life to Pit of Pallas, there wasn't much to him.

Would you like to clarify what exactly about old Varus needed reworking other than removing references to the retconned League of Legends/Institute of War?

Giving him the ability to grow or change, giving him character depth beyond "Got to kill Noxus!! GRRR", giving him lore options. Most importantly, taking him out of his own little lonely lore corner so that he can interact with other characters.

Would you like to explain how new Varus' lore connects to other champions other than the Darkin thing (which, as I said before, could simply be clarified as a Pool of Darkin)?

So Varus now has potential interactions and lore with Aatrox , Kayn , Rhaast, any future Darkin (which is extremely likely considering they hinted at a female), the Golden Armored Queen with Red Hair, and any character he meets in his travels.

I'm pretty convinced that there will be opposing forces who are against the Darkin as well. Ryze, Poppy, every Targonian champion, etc. would all be pretty easy to have fight against any upcoming Darkin.

Varus also has a reason to meet and do stuff with characters he meets on his travels to unite the 5 Darkin. Or while Kai and Valmar try to overcome the Darkin. Either way, this dude is going to be making friends and enemies for once.

MysterQDec 2, 20173 votes

One, change the ending of the original lore slightly. You know a smaller edit than this. User even said have Varus fuse with his Son + Darkin. Darkin + revenge + lightside. I somewhat think the son is weaker than a lover, but you can have him fuse with his lover then. There are many ways to OPEN up Varus story. To say it is closed, is only closed if you don't edit it.

I don't like his son fighting with him (prefer lover, can be his HUSBAND). That is the users point! You aren't fully reading what is posted. He is saying they could have altered the original to be similar to the current. Except it would still keep Varus and his family. SO the change would not be so drastic. What was the purpose of the drastic change for drastic change sake I guess.

Again, change the ending. Varus now has room to grow. You said yourself, who can relate to Varus now? He is a monster that just wants to kill people for revenge. And maybe he has a family. (This can be developed) but he is still currently just a monster with no relatable backstory.

And those are all things he could have done with just slight tweaks to the original.

ArakadiaDec 3, 20171 votes

Again, change the ending. Varus now has room to grow.

How do you change the ending without pissing people off? "Just do it" isn't a real answer.

You said yourself, who can relate to Varus now? He is a monster that just wants to kill people for revenge. And maybe he has a family. (This can be developed) but he is still currently just a monster with no relatable backstory.

New Varus feels like an actual human being post corruption. He has a human side (literally and figuratively). People can relate to Kai and Valmar. A lot of people can relate to trying to help their loved ones. A lot of people can relate to helping your loved one and using their help to overcome difficult situations. Most people can't relate to complete violence, hate, and vengeance.

Old Varus was utterly inhuman after his corruption.

statelesskillerDec 2, 20177 votes

im just gonna throw my 2 cents in here right quick dont mind me if you dont want too.

How was Varus post corruption well designed? I really liked his actions and story before he became corrupted, but after that he was inhuman, unrelatable, and pretty boring. All he was going to do was try to ruin and end as many Noxian lives as possible before he died shortly after. There wouldn't be room for development or many interesting stories. You can't have him go do anything beyond go kill Noxians because he's "on borrowed time" and he gave up his life for revenge. So how does this flat, hateful, vengeful man without any potential lore beyond killing Noxians show up as well designed?

we answer this question in the same way we answer "why is frank castle aka the punisher a great character". there is something enthralling to me about a man who loses everything, a man who is broken inside, a man that decides his life no longer has any purpose so he surrenders to destroying all that he views as evil in the world. THAT is a interesting story. and it gets even better as we delve deeper and deeper into the psychosis. remember he isnt just a killing machine at this point, he still has emotions, he has just been so damaged that its hard for them to come out. its interesting to see what the lore team could do with that. would he kill a bunch of noxian slavers and just leave a bunch of near starved beaten and battered people to fend for themselves? or would he help them enough to get back on there feet, either choice is interesting because it SHOWS us the character.

you say that he is emotionally flat but thats just because you havent seen that character archetype done well and alas it looks like your not going to see it with varus either. for example the punisher (who im using as a example because its a EXTREMLY similar character to the idea of varus) at one point kills a bunch of criminals. he then sees a police badge, and to his horror he realizes he killed a undercover cop. so you know what he does? he goes to the wife of the cop. gives her a fucking gun, kneels infront of her and just tells her "you have every right to kill me." THAT to me is interesting and cool and great, and its a example of why your wrong about the kind of character varus is

ArakadiaDec 3, 20171 votes

we answer this question in the same way we answer "why is frank castle aka the punisher a great character". there is something enthralling to me about a man who loses everything, a man who is broken inside, a man that decides his life no longer has any purpose so he surrenders to destroying all that he views as evil in the world. THAT is a interesting story. and it gets even better as we delve deeper and deeper into the psychosis. remember he isnt just a killing machine at this point, he still has emotions, he has just been so damaged that its hard for them to come out. its interesting to see what the lore team could do with that. would he kill a bunch of noxian slavers and just leave a bunch of near starved beaten and battered people to fend for themselves? or would he help them enough to get back on there feet, either choice is interesting because it SHOWS us the character.

Okay but old Varus didn't have any of this depth.

He wanted to ruin and end as many Noxian lives as he could. Thats it. He wasn't going to help them enough to get back on their feet or any of that. That wasn't who he was.

And he wasn't an interesting or relatable character when he is completely driven by hate and revenge. You say he still had emotions, but they were never shown. He was an interesting character up until he was corrupted. After that? He was boring and flat.

MysterQDec 3, 20171 votes

Right, new story can't show emotions at the end. He should just continue killing without looking back at his house, family, village and the carnage that battle caused.

ArakadiaDec 3, 20171 votes

Kai and Valmar add a human side to Varus. How doesn't new Varus have emotions? He has two extreme emotions: love and hate.

statelesskillerDec 3, 20174 votes

yeah he didnt have any of this depth, want to know why? because riot didnt GIVE it to him. they didnt make any stories about him at all.

"darius was just a noxian version of garen, he lived and died for noxus and there isnt much else to his charater"

oh but wait now theres a comic that shows just how much of a conflicted human he really is. the same could have been done for varus, riot simply chose the stupid way of going about it

MysterQDec 3, 20171 votes

For some reason, people don't understand this argument. Like you can't update the old lore for some reason.

Then they compare the old lore to this new $$$ lore. (And I would still argue the old lore was better detailed).

BoulderoxDec 3, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Okay so I'd appreciate if you could answer me two questions because I don't see a good answer for either of them.

How was Varus post corruption well designed? I really liked his actions and story before he became corrupted, but after that he was inhuman, unrelatable, and pretty boring. All he was going to do was try to ruin and end as many Noxian lives as possible before he died shortly after. There wouldn't be room for development or many interesting stories. You can't have him go do anything beyond go kill Noxians because he's "on borrowed time" and he gave up his life for revenge. So how does this flat, hateful, vengeful man without any potential lore beyond killing Noxians show up as well designed?

I remember hearing an idea, that during his quest to kill every noxian, the darkin tries to take over and he keeps fighting it off, and when he is "satified" the darkin explains about his sister that the new lore is all over, and old varus could do something that Kayn didn't, accept him, varus is merged as person and darkin, varus chose not to save his family and regretted it, but can help the darkin find their family, and have an ok dual personality that works together instead of against.

And second, how would Varus being the father and his son fighting the Darkin be any better then two lovers? What does that have over Kai and Valmar?

Honestly I think just having varus vs darkin is good enough, and the only premise I am coming from is with 3 voice actors for VARUS in game, it will be a schizophrenic endeavor playing him vs split personality that Kayn has until form change.

That and the 2 hunters want to stop varus... actively hindering his power, making him weaker in combat, ie closer to killing themselves, kayn used rhaast willingly for the power he had. If they do overcome varus. are they 2 people in one purified body, do they cease to exist? Things just don't add up with the new lore? Why did they both jump in the pool together? suicidal pact? that is the only thing i can think of that makes sense and if so, that is one hell of a dark fucking thing you want expressing love...

Kaladin DavarDec 2, 20175 votes

Cry more about the varus lore you children. It's not changing

PokladnicaZlaDec 2, 20172 votes

Why not use Varus's old story for a new champion?

GigglesODec 2, 201711 votes

Because they already had it on a champion, why hop around lore on champions?

Karn BishopDec 2, 20176 votes

Why not change pantheon in to a local city gate guard and make a new character into an aspect?

see how foolish that sounds now?

CrypticCandyDec 3, 20172 votes

I didn't know much about Varus other than he had a girlfriend or wife and that something tragic happened? It's wasn't anything interesting or memorable like Lucians wife or Rakan and Xayah's story. Maybe they could have given his family more life and character. My own opinion is that I like his lore change and now I want to get to know more about his and Kai's relationship since it feels genuine and not just a "his lover died" flat delivery. The M/V, music, and animation was amazing. Maybe they might consider a family tragedy for the next champion, but possibly not since they seem to want to counter the recent serious champs they've made. Maybe eventually though.

Weiss GuertenaDec 3, 20172 votes

The problem is, two hunters aren't anymore fleshed out than Varus' old family. There is literally no character, no development behind "they are gay and in love".

A big problem is, while old Varus' family was killed off-stage as a motive for vengeance, hunters are parts of the character himself. It's much worse - a straight out downgrade of Varus' story. A sake just for the sake of change with no improvement - a sure way to piss of lots of people while gaining nothing for the effort.

MysterQDec 4, 20171 votes

Exactly! Except so many fans of this lore somehow say Val/Kai are developed. Like ??? I know nothing or care nothing about them. Is being gay clouding your opinion? Some people really do have honestly great thoughts on them. They have shared their backstory about them, but none of that was easy to glean from the comic.

PinkajDec 3, 20172 votes

Everyone's been saying that this should happen but I've been convinced that Riot doesn't really listen to us.

GigglesODec 3, 20174 votes

All of the darkin stories are very similar in nature. It is either a struggle to get control of, or an acceptance of giving into, the power. It easily could have been a stand alone story for the next darkin. Honestly changing varus's giving into darkness to avenge his family vs. going to a temple to try and save a loved one. Is like comparing Batman to the Green Arrow. Both very similar stories, but different in execution and character emotions.

GreenLoreDec 3, 20171 votes

Probably because the bow of Varus being a darkin is kind of an obvious choice and not making the actual darkin the champion feels kind of a waste since we have only 5 of them.