@Riot. Are you still listening to lore-retcon criticism? Does it have any effect on the future game?

Impetual·Jan 4, 2015·9 votes·1,184 views

Just wondering how you guys deal with criticism on this topic.

13 Comments

Sneak DogJan 4, 20157 votes

Apparently a single dev blog is more than sufficient to Riot to retcon the very premise of the lore and everything that tied the game and the lore neatly together. I wonder when the next dev blog comes out, see what happens then. Perhaps Runeterra will shift forward in time 500 years.

They do not seem inclined to defend their decision on the boards at all. The community argued against Riots given arguments quite effectively, found new arguments for the retcon too, but Riot doesn't seem to care. They just do whatever they want with their lore.

Don't expect them to go back on it either. They never did on Trundle, they've had over a year now, why go back on the IoW?

Too bad, but narrative seems to be the worst part of Riot I know when it comes to communication and taking feedback. If only they were more like gameplay (dang Stashu!) or art.

Sneak DogJan 4, 20152 votes

Just wanted to comment that downvoting me is fine, though I'd love some discussion. I'm just saying what it seems like to me. I know the lore department is working hard, but it's not very visible right now and I wholeheartedly disagree with certain decisions they made (Xerath a politician, Trundle now being power-hungry).

Darrosh JewfistJan 4, 20158 votes

I totally agree with you on the narrative being the worst part of Riot in terms of communication and feedback. With other departments you can definitely get an idea of what champs are coming, reworks being done, balancing, tournaments...

But narrative? You just... don't know.

And it's FRUSTRATING.

Especially given that in the four months since the September Dev post we still have un-updated champion lore. Like, a months or two fine but it's already 'next year' and still we've failed to see any significant progress on the retcon.

All the while, the narrative is still starting up storylines for Shurima, Kalista, and Rek'Sai but has left the Freljord event (which is nearing two years of age) unresolved. I can only expect these storylines to be abandoned as well.

I try to be neutral on the retcon and give Riot the benefit of the doubt, but without anything significant to show for it - the retcon seems like a massive mistake that has only served to irk people and feed the joke that MOBA games have no lore. Hell, we don't even have a canonical map of Runeterra anymore because of the Retcon.

Really, it'd be nice if the narrative would just let go of the shock reveals and just discuss what sort of things they want to do. Like, not discuss the Retcon itself and get bogged down in arguments but just come out and say:

"Yo, we working on X, Y, and Z and it'll be ready when it's ready." Where X/Y/Z can be anything from short story pieces about different places in Valoran to comics focusing on specific champions to extended universe novels. Progress updates would be nice. Visibility on the boards would be hella nice.

But alas, none of that.

Sneak DogJan 5, 20152 votes

With other departments you can definitely get an idea of what champs are coming, reworks being done, balancing, tournaments.

Balancing/skins/champupdate have a *dedicated *pbe server for them to do their experiments. That's just a dedicated way of gathering feedback about every change they do. Obviously they can't really cancel the largest projects, like Sions champion update, but it's entirely open for tweaks.

still we've failed to see any significant progress on the retcon.

I dislike how easily they're doing it as far as I can see. As far as I know, they could've just made the decision lightly. Why couldn't they make it again? Why should I invest time into reading this lore if it could go unfinished?

Besides that, I'm fine with the retcon of the IoW. I will miss the immersion, but I could live with it. The only issue is that Riot retconned one of my favorite characters a year ago in favor of a new one (I don't care he's a frost troll chieftain, talking about his personality).

Like, not discuss the Retcon itself and get bogged down in arguments but just come out and say:

Right now, for the sake of getting a start, I agree. They should make a Q&A stating explicitly they won't be responding on the retcon in this Q&A but only to the topic at hand.

GreenLoreJan 4, 20153 votes

Overall they responded to questions/criticisms when they announced the retcon,after that they went silent because there is really no point in answering the same questions/concerns over and over again.

basically they said that they decided for a retcon,because they thought that writing the league out of the story would have felt like an asspull and would have affected too many sides in runeterra(also it would have created questions like "was Rek'sai ever in the league?She has to since she is in the game,so how did she join?") Summoners felt too oppressive,because while they weren't invincible they were still too powerful(seriosuly stopping the 2 greatest armies on their own was kinda op)and they would have needed to write around them every time to create interesting conflicts(which in turn would make the league look useless if conflicts still happen) On top of that they didn't like it how the champs were more or less just puppets for the summoners on the SR

those were at least the things they said about the retcon that i remember(i didn't read everything obviously,so there was probably more)

Sneak DogJan 4, 20153 votes

There's been discussion about this though.

The first point is legitimate. The second point does not call for a complete retcon. A shift in power is much less destructive to the old lore here. I would've liked summoners to be much less all-mighty. The third is false.

GreenLoreJan 4, 20152 votes

third is false? As far as i know they specially said that they didn't like how you were playing not the champion directly,but merely the summoner controlling the champion

DG AshabelJan 4, 20155 votes

That's not what they meant at all by the "puppets" comment. They meant the champions within the lore have no control over their lives beyond following the whims of their summoners, which was blatantly false.

That said, their line of reasoning for wanting the player to feel like they're controlling the champion sits somewhere between baffling and blatantly ignorant of game design. A major thing with League is that it doesn't provide nearly enough tools for the player to become invested in the character they're controlling. The only smidgens of personality the character displays during the game are:

Their animations and abilities, which come off as considerably weakened in comparison to how they're described in lore (makes sense within the old lore due to how the Fields of Justice work, not so much in the new lore).
Musing aloud about one thing or another while moving or attacking, with all those things sounding as if they're talking to someone else (hint hint).
A tiny handful of custom taunts and jokes for specific champions.

There isn't nearly enough character to get invested in there. Not to mention that while an average narrative-driven game has you associate with the character because you spend 5+ hours in their company, an average League match lasts for 20-40 minutes. Yes, you can extend your time with the character by playing multiple matches, but the need to accommodate the team composition and tactics will often mean that you simply won't be allowed to play the same character multiple matches in a row, thus resetting your immersion every time you pick a different one. There is simply not enough time and space for persistent association.

I'll add here that you actually can build persistent association with a character through short MOBA matches, but you need to use your tools better. Dawngate, for example, succeeds. Dawngate's characters have very short lines for moving around and attacking, but they make up for it by having the following:

Custom lines for kills, multi-kills, losing and winning a match, respawning after dying and so on.
Various pings produce different reactions. Pinging an empty spot on the map will prompt some curiosity, pinging an enemy will have them request a kill on that guy, prompting the Parasite (local version of Baron Nashor) will have them talk about how the thing should be buried, pointing toward a tower will have them request a siege, etc.
On top of some custom jokes and taunts, characters will talk to one another upon spawning at the start of the match, meeting each other for the first time, attacking and killing each other. Sometimes they will also talk for no reason (Cerulean and Amarynth have a habit of flirting even when they're on opposite teams).
All of them have announcer packs that have them react to the events of the match in different ways. Varion reportedly loves to bet on matches, Renzo acts as if the player character is his apprentice and Ashabel makes everything sound like a classy sporting event. ( I personally love using Varion for his "KICK THEM IN THE BA--the face. The face!")

The amount of content and showing personality is on a completely different level. Riot Games would need to spend hours and hundreds of thousands of dollars to replicate it, and they would need to completely rewrite their sound delivery system in order to give the characters so much personality.

And even if they do, there is the whole part where Dawngate does keep the game and its matches canon. Nothing within the game of League matters, therefore there is no reason for anyone to get invested in characters.

The Summoners provided an aspect where leaving the match and hopping into the base client still contributed to your immersion because your background stats such as winrates, ranking and affinity with a champion, also reflected your summoner character within the game's world. In the past, a player who liked to play Ashe but did poorly with her would have a reason to think "Oh man, I hope Ashe doesn't hate me for that loss the other day, I'll have to make it up to her with a win later". What is there for them to think these days, given that Ashe's minimal in-game representation as a character provides them no reason to immerse themselves into her role?

Bottom line is, League's current design as a game provides ample opportunities for immersion into the role of a summoner. But because the lore retcon was done so hastily and without adjustments on the design side, lore pieces do not connect with gameplay pieces sufficiently enough to provide any sort of immersion.

tl;dr The narrative team doesn't seem to understand how immersion works. You can't convince people to play as characters directly just by saying that's what they do now, you need to provide tools that convince them that they're currently that character. As of this moment, those tools do not exist within the game of League.

GreenLoreJan 5, 20152 votes

I agree with some of the things you said. I mean I can't feel like garen if sneak up with him on J4 use summoner 4 to surprise him together with my best buddies Swain Urgot & Darius and ultimately kill him by looking at him and setting him on fire with summoner 14 and once he is dead I start to dance on top of his dead body.

Buuuuut anyway I just wanted to tell the opener what the rioters said

DG AshabelJan 5, 20153 votes

Having known Sneak Dog for several months now (we don't know each other personally but our paths cross on these forums a lot), I'm fairly sure that he knows all about both answers by the narrative team. He simply doesn't consider them very good answers.

And yeah, it's hard to feel like Garen when none of the game is designed to make you feel like him. All of the user interface is designed around you being a summoner, with references to the Fields of Justice, the spellbook, the runes and so on. Pretty silly, really.

MotajoJan 5, 20153 votes

{quoted}it's hard to feel like Garen

I don't see what's so bad. Maybe it's just me, but my favorite champs aren't characters I want to be; they are characters that I admire, and possibly ones I am inspired by. I understand having a fantasy of becoming what physics don't allow, but how much does technically being a summoner really hinder our bonding time with our favorites?

All of the user interface is designed around you being a summoner

I think too many people underestimated this--just how much the lore was integrated into the game. When you sit down and think about it, you see so many of the little details in game mechanics that are easily explained via Summoners (and the IoW).

But really, the term "Summoner" permeating everything in and out of the game should have been their first clue.

MotajoJan 5, 20154 votes

{quoted}Overall they responded to questions/criticisms when they announced the retcon,after that they went silent because there is really no point in answering the same questions/concerns over and over again.

They stated their reasons, but couldn't defend them. That's much of the point, really. We don't want their reasons; those are weightless and flimsy, and we got them four months ago. We want them to defend their arguments; everything they've said has been shot down both by angry and calm replies and criticism.