It seems like a logical decision to me. Lore is enriched by being tied to the game-play, and game-play is in turn enriched by being tied to the lore.
What's the downside? (other than needing a creative writing staff to make things work).
NorthernDruid13 votesMy biggest disappointment with the retcon is that the old lore was one of the coolest ways of doing gameplay/story integration I've seen (in recent years if not ever). I'm really sad that Riot decided to axe that when it's something the industry needs more of not less.
I don't understand why they haven't pushed the connection harder themselves, something like Factions would have been amazing as an official game mode and way of storytelling from Riot's side.
They had something really capable of a lot of innovation here, and decided that it was... too difficult? That they wanted to do something else instead? You don't just destroy something because you wanna make something else, not when it's made for others.
Personally I hunger for more gameplay/story integration all the time, explicit gameplay/story integration.
When you're making a story for a game, or a game for a story, or both in any form of tandem with each other, they should feed into each other, like how we presume Riven is the killer of the elder in Yasuo's lore because of an ability only shown in gameplay. (Wish I could think of more examples here, but I don't have the time)
/disrupt rant
OJ1913 votesMy biggest disappointment with the retcon is that the old lore was one of the coolest ways of doing gameplay/story integration I've seen (in recent years if not ever). I'm really sad that Riot decided to axe that when it's something the industry needs more of not less.
I don't understand why they haven't pushed the connection harder themselves, something like Factions would have been amazing as an official game mode and way of storytelling from Riot's side.
They had something really capable of a lot of innovation here, and decided that it was... too difficult? That they wanted to do something else instead? You don't just destroy something because you wanna make something else, not when it's made for others.
Personally I hunger for more gameplay/story integration all the time, explicit gameplay/story integration.
When you're making a story for a game, or a game for a story, or both in any form of tandem with each other, they should feed into each other, like how we presume Riven is the killer of the elder in Yasuo's lore because of an ability only shown in gameplay. (Wish I could think of more examples here, but I don't have the time)
/disrupt rant
the factions setup would lend perfectly to a featured game mode, and then you pull the averaged results of every game of that mode to get the results
NorthernDruid2 votesMy biggest disappointment with the retcon is that the old lore was one of the coolest ways of doing gameplay/story integration I've seen (in recent years if not ever). I'm really sad that Riot decided to axe that when it's something the industry needs more of not less.
I don't understand why they haven't pushed the connection harder themselves, something like Factions would have been amazing as an official game mode and way of storytelling from Riot's side.
They had something really capable of a lot of innovation here, and decided that it was... too difficult? That they wanted to do something else instead? You don't just destroy something because you wanna make something else, not when it's made for others.
Personally I hunger for more gameplay/story integration all the time, explicit gameplay/story integration.
When you're making a story for a game, or a game for a story, or both in any form of tandem with each other, they should feed into each other, like how we presume Riven is the killer of the elder in Yasuo's lore because of an ability only shown in gameplay. (Wish I could think of more examples here, but I don't have the time)
/disrupt rant
the factions setup would lend perfectly to a featured game mode, and then you pull the averaged results of every game of that mode to get the results
I really wish that would have happened instead of the retcon. If it did it might be easier to find a game in EUNE.
When I get rich and go back in time I can maybe bribe Riot to make it happen. Or just tell them the future of the planet relies on it.
Earl Eulrich5 votesDunno, discussing this had been attempted ever since the "great-retcon", but Riot just clings to their position of knowing better than 1000++Forum-posts regarding what the Community really wants.
Narasimha1 votesTo be entirely honest, more doesn't equate to better . More people think Darren Wilson should stand trial. More people think America is the absolute best at everything. Hell, more people thought the world is flat.
Diahane7 votesTo be entirely honest, more doesn't equate to better . More people think Darren Wilson should stand trial. More people think America is the absolute best at everything. Hell, more people thought the world is flat.
But here we're talking about entertainment, which is about entertaining people. The more people are against a narrative decision, the less people will follow that narrative. We're not talking about justice nor factual truths, we're talking about how we think the entertainment in lore has been (mis)handled and how we'd like it to be. There's a huge difference between the things you cited and what we're discussing.
Sneak Dog6 votesNo, I agree with him. Just quoting sheer post number is irrelevant. We're still only a small part of the playerbase, just the vocal/invested part. The forums are best used to provide/gather qualitative feedback in a back-and-forth format.
We should mention that there's been a great deal of posts with good discussion about this. That there's been mainly arguments against the great-retcon, most of the arguments Riot used have been disproven and that most lore forumgoers currently seem to believe that it was a bad thing. There have been entirely valid reasons posted that speak in favor of the retcon too. A great deal of valid criticism has been put against the retcon.
I feel like the narrative department seems to work entirely different than the rest of Riot. Gameplay and balance can get any issue discussed and a relevant Rioter will see it, sometimes even join the discussion. Ironstylus Imo is doing miracles, outright miracles, for the art department. We just seem to get systematically and intentionally met with silence after lore department makes a lore-shattering announcement. They haven't even bothered to start an AMA about removing the very premise of the lore. Jaredan legitimately told us to move on.
We want you to share your ideas on what you would like to see from Champions who will fall into the areas I've outlined, and we'd love to read and join in discussion wherever possible, but I have to be honest: if the main thrust of the ideas are tied to the IoW then it's very difficult for me, or other members of Narrative, to engage with them. We've outlined where we are headed and we're committed to developing Runeterra as a story world in the way we've laid out.
You and I in isolation, as well as members of the Story and Art community and Narrative, have disagreed on some of the changes made this year, and I'm sure we will have differences of opinion on some of the stories we tell in the years ahead. I'm trying to be as open as I can be, while being responsible to the work being done.
I'm not blaming Jaredan specifically for this. I'm blaming the narrative team as a whole. They are actively avoiding a relevant topic we want to discuss and they do not. I don't want them to just undo the retcon just because I say so. I want narrative to discuss why the retcon is a good thing. Right now, I consider it a bad thing and just a precedent for it to happen again whenever they feel like they are stuck. It feels like the decision was made lightly.
Diahane4 votesNo, I agree with him. Just quoting sheer post number is irrelevant. We're still only a small part of the playerbase, just the vocal/invested part. The forums are best used to provide/gather qualitative feedback in a back-and-forth format.
Yes, I agree we're just a part, the point I was trying to make is that being us the invested part it doesn't make that much sense not to base the growth of the lore-community fanbase on said invested part, which is (was?) the one already existing. Chances are there that those who were not invested before won't be invested after all this: it's a gambit, they declared an all-in in which the existing fanbase was sacrificed so as to try to have a greater gain in fans. Maybe they will be right in the long run, it wouldn't surprise me, but it still something really unRiot-like to do.
We should mention that there's been a great deal of posts with good discussion about this. That there's been mainly arguments against the great-retcon, most of the arguments Riot used have been disproven and that most lore forumgoers currently seem to believe that it was a bad thing. There have been entirely valid reasons posted that speak in favor of the retcon too. A great deal of valid criticism has been put against the retcon.
I feel like the narrative department seems to work entirely different than the rest of Riot. Gameplay and balance can get any issue discussed and a relevant Rioter will see it, sometimes even join the discussion. Ironstylus Imo is doing miracles, outright miracles, for the art department. We just seem to get systematically and intentionally met with silence after lore department makes a lore-shattering announcement. They haven't even bothered to start an AMA about removing the very premise of the lore. Jaredan legitimately told us to move on.
We want you to share your ideas on what you would like to see from Champions who will fall into the areas I've outlined, and we'd love to read and join in discussion wherever possible, but I have to be honest: if the main thrust of the ideas are tied to the IoW then it's very difficult for me, or other members of Narrative, to engage with them. We've outlined where we are headed and we're committed to developing Runeterra as a story world in the way we've laid out.
You and I in isolation, as well as members of the Story and Art community and Narrative, have disagreed on some of the changes made this year, and I'm sure we will have differences of opinion on some of the stories we tell in the years ahead. I'm trying to be as open as I can be, while being responsible to the work being done.
I'm not blaming Jaredan specifically for this. I'm blaming the narrative team as a whole. They are actively avoiding a relevant topic we want to discuss and they do not. I don't want them to just undo the retcon just because I say so. I want narrative to discuss why the retcon is a good thing. Right now, I consider it a bad thing and just a precedent for it to happen again whenever they feel like they are stuck. It feels like the decision was made lightly.
You should know I agree with all of this, given how many threads we've been both into these past two months, saying exactly these things =P
Sneak Dog4 votesThat wasn't aimed towards you anymore, but just in general. I generally agree with you, don't worry, I just love discussions.
Diahane2 votesThat wasn't aimed towards you anymore, but just in general. I generally agree with you, don't worry, I just love discussions.
I love them too, don't worry =P
Earl Eulrich4 votesWell, this is certainly true for ethnical questions and such - but if you want to market a product than you usually prefer to make as many customers happy as you can. And it´s not just the mass-factor here, there had been a lot of good arguments why getting rid of immersion a.k.a. seperating gameplay&lore is just a bad idea and the whole retcon had been entirely unneded to progress on the lore. None of these had been answered by Riot.
Earl Eulrich4 votesmh, though I think they could focus a lot more on actual writing. If you take the Witcher as an example for extraodrinary story-telling in a video-game you´ll notice that the journal helps a lot to keep track on events and explore the world and it´s characters further.
Impetual5 votesNot really. This talk (to me at least) seems kind of close minded in the way they view storytelling within PvP only games.
Is it harder to have a good story in a game that is primarily pvp oriented? Yes!
Is it impossible to have a high quality storyline/lore within a game that is primarily pvp oriented? NO!
If Riot wants, it could take this easy, commonly walked path in terms of story design. in order to deliver a MOBA with mediocre lore, it could follow the advice given in this talk you referenced and it will get them exactly that. Mediocre Lore.
The sad part is, Riot's Lore used to be much more interesting. Game mechanics were actually integrated into the lore of the game!
The reason I make posts about stuff like this is because I'm a fan of story, and for some reason Riot seems intent on selling out its original lore direction in favor of a really bland, flavorless approach to lore.
Rafael Merlo8 votesThe reality is that gasp about the Great Retcon and the erasing of the IoW is not swallowed yet by the community. The summoners from my University still rant every single time we meet about this and plans are for we begin taking pictures with "For the Return of the Institute of War" along a signatures on a online manifesto against the bulldozing by the actual Narrative Team. If we were not in our final exams this would have happened earlier...
Diahane3 votesThe reality is that gasp about the Great Retcon and the erasing of the IoW is not swallowed yet by the community. The summoners from my University still rant every single time we meet about this and plans are for we begin taking pictures with "For the Return of the Institute of War" along a signatures on a online manifesto against the bulldozing by the actual Narrative Team. If we were not in our final exams this would have happened earlier...
You guys/gals rock xD
Angry Monster1 voteslore has nothing to do with game play. You whole premise is a flawed.
Diahane7 voteslore has nothing to do with game play. You whole premise is a flawed.
If you mean this phrase as "in general in videogames this statement holds" then it's pretty false. If you mean for it to hold only for LoL, we could argue, but I wouldn't say lore doesn't have anything to add to gameplay. For instance, there's a miniquest for Kha'Zix and Rengar, even though it's an exception. Lore could be implemented more into gameplay as well as not, but it stays relevant nevertheless, since people who get attached to champions know those champion's lore and may be motivated into playing them by it. Then, of course, during ranked matches it's all merrily ignored, but tying gameplay and story isn't impossible, as the Factions initiative show, in the spirit of the Ionia vs Noxus rematch there was back in the days.
Angry Monster1 votesThey are 2 total different beasts. You can have the rengar kzh mini game(not that a majority even care about that mini game or even with rengars change wroth while.) without lore. Most people just see X interaction and move on. Example of a non lore interaction in game is when vi tells jayice "hows this for a power slam". their is no set lore about the 2 minus both being from plitover(not a big enough connection to say LORE had something to with it).
You can have odd rules without lore. As long as they are constant and always happen.
Again game play has nothing to do with lore. Game play is about a rules that are always followed even if the ones like rengar and kzh are obscure and not used 99% of the time.
PS down voting me cause you disagree just shows how insecure you are with your position on this matter. Sry that i wasted your time when you want a discussion.
Diahane7 votesThey are 2 total different beasts. You can have the rengar kzh mini game(not that a majority even care about that mini game or even with rengars change wroth while.) without lore. Most people just see X interaction and move on. Example of a non lore interaction in game is when vi tells jayice "hows this for a power slam". their is no set lore about the 2 minus both being from plitover(not a big enough connection to say LORE had something to with it).
You can have odd rules without lore. As long as they are constant and always happen.
Again game play has nothing to do with lore. Game play is about a rules that are always followed even if the ones like rengar and kzh are obscure and not used 99% of the time.
PS down voting me cause you disagree just shows how insecure you are with your position on this matter. Sry that i wasted your time when you want a discussion.
I refer you to the link shinijumanjiman provided, it's some slides of a talk about narrative in videogames and I think those slides hit bullseye.
Besides, Vi taunting Jayce that way is a lore interaction. Without lore, she wouldn't say anything. No character would. Lore is about characters personalities and knowing each other too. There are a lot of special interactions like taunts tied to lore, for instance the ones Yasuo has when facing Riven, in which case he notices how her Q is three swift strikes and her R a wind slash, all things he recognizes as linked to his own style. And all it's a way to further imply that Riven's the main suspect for the death of the elder Yasuo should have protected. This is all lore. Yasuo wouldn't be surprised of someone using a wind sword technique if in his lore wasn't said that he was the only one with such an ability and that that was the reason he was considered guilty of treason.
Sneak Dog5 votesVi telling Jayce that is a great way to showcase relationships and characters in-game. This is entirely lore-related.
Brenticus125 votesI don't think you know what lore is. What you're referring to is merely backstory of a character or just the story of the world. Lore encompasses all that makes an entity a character in a world.
