So, when are we ever going to get any new lore that isn't tied to a champion release?

Impetual·Oct 7, 2014·25 votes·9,406 views

Runeterra recently had most of its lore reworked. That really sucked.

What sucks even more, is that there doesn't seem to be anything ready to replace most of the interesting content that was retconned out of existence.

Any plans Riot? Jax, Ezreal, Skarner, and many more of your champions are in a terrible state (lore wise) due to the recent lore retcon.

Are the problems caused by this going to be fixed soon? or just Riot's interpretation of soon? (soon*tm)

99 Comments

DG AshabelOct 7, 201416 votes

We won't be getting anything like that.

Seriously, go through the website. You'll notice that they removed all references to the lore except for the champion lore entries, and those are steadily shifting toward flavorful short stories that paint how awesome the character is while removing any reference to the long-term narrative. They very glaringly phased every single semblance of story progression out of the game.

Now, this is just my opinion, but... They're shifting toward handling the characters like a toyline. Riot will focus on eSports in terms of gameplay, while the characters will get the same story treatment as the ones on Transformers and Masters of the Universe, but without animated adaptations. They'll be products marketed through occasional non-consequential stories so we would buy those characters and products like posters, shirts and action figures.

I said that opinion back on the original lore discussion forums and I'm sticking by it.

RiotCarnival KnightsOct 7, 201413 votes

We won't be getting anything like that.

I wouldn't say that.

We've been looking into a lot of new avenues for telling stories as of late. Can we advance the plot with a champion bio? What if we want to tell a story outside of that bio, but with the same character? What about places? Factions? The abstract concept of love? A doughnut I ate once (idea was vetoed)?

I know it's frustrating to repeatedly be asked to 'trust us on this,' but we want to write stories with you guys in mind. Maybe we'll misstep along the way, but these problems are definitely not being ignored.

Ark Angel HFBOct 7, 201418 votes

"We want to write stories with you guys."

"We can't talk things over with you because then things wouldn't be surprises."

"We certainly will not poll players for their opinions."

"We write for you."

"We really care about the players."

"We have removed the players from the lore. Now they have no immersion in ether the game or the lore."

Funny how all of these things were said by the same team... Your actions speak a bit louder than your words though...

Rafael MerloOct 8, 20146 votes

So much this.

I'm coming back after my old frustration with that Lore department, and I'm really happy to see you guys again (YOU caring summoners, not you, reds) in this constant fight for a serious treatment for the Story in this game.

I will probably be searching another games aside from LoL now that they are destroying the Institute of War and what meant to me to be a Summoner. Now even Praeco's "Summoner's Call" sounds like a joke to me.

DG AshabelOct 7, 20148 votes

After thinking about it for a while, I realized I missed something major in my response to you. I'll make a second post for it, though, because these questions are completely separate from my disgruntlement with the Narrative Team's persisting contempt and taking fans for granted.

I made two fairly major statements in my post. They are:

Riot removed the vast majority of lore information from their website and is actively replacing champions' lore entries with short stories designed to market how cool the character is rather than what their story is, essentially meaning that all actual lore that indicates continuity and story progression is no longer accessible to new fans.
Riot's actions indicate that all future lore efforts will be focused on marketing characters as products such as posters and action figures.

Is there a reason why you addressed only the first sentence of my post, but completely ignored these two statements? I think numerous people on this board want to see the first statement addressed, as it indicates a decision to completely kick the lore out of the game. Your post also doesn't deny my statement that all your future content will focus on marketing. "New avenues" might imply novels, but it can also imply the back of an action figure's box and LEGO recreations of major locations. Hell, it might even indicate cosplay porn. It doesn't actually indicate that you're planning to provide us with plot progression, neither does it imply that any of those stories will consider the feedback spoken on these boards.

RiotCarnival KnightsOct 7, 20148 votes

the Narrative Team's persisting contempt and taking fans for granted.

This makes me really sad to read. I know it may feel like that to you, but no one here is feeling any contempt or taking anyone for granted. I suppose it's on us to prove otherwise.

I made two fairly major statements in my post. They are:

Riot removed the vast majority of lore information from their website and is actively replacing champions' lore entries with short stories designed to market how cool the character is rather than what their story is, essentially meaning that all actual lore that indicates continuity and story progression is no longer accessible to new fans.

I assume you're referring to the short bios? As has been said before, long ones (that also progress the story) are in the works - but we took a fair bit of feedback from lore aficionados and retooled them. That takes a bit of time, which I agree sucks, but hopefully the end result will solve the issue of newer players interested in lore having a full background for their favorite characters. Once again, it is up to us to prove we've taken your concerns to heart.

Riot's actions indicate that all future lore efforts will be focused on marketing characters as products such as posters and action figures.

While I'd personally love a couple super-sick Lissandra action figures (is somebody from merch reading this? Hello?), I'm sorry to say that's just not true. It's more like we're staging the world for even more stories.

Sneak DogOct 7, 20148 votes

I think he means that you just portray a champion as a bad-ass in a short generic story, so that he appeals to the crowd and is easily marketed, then move on.

RiotCarnival KnightsOct 7, 20144 votes

Ah, I see. In my mind I read "Lissandra Action Figures" and I blacked out for a second. I'm sure that's totally normal.

Short answer, no. Long answer... we want to give them a lot more depth than they might have had before, and are taking strides to accomplish that.

DG AshabelOct 7, 201419 votes

Long answer... we want to give them a lot more depth than they might have had before, and are taking strides to accomplish that.

Ashe before retcon: cunning political leader who uses her position in the League of Legends to manipulate her way into becoming the queen of Freljord, makes a political marriage and otherwise actively participates in uniting Freljord without bloodshed.

Ashe after retcon: female King Arthur with a bow instead of a sword who preaches about peace a lot but doesn't actually do anything while Sejuani wrecks her people's villages for supplies.

Skarner before retcon: the only active member of his once proud race, he emerges into an unfamiliar world and struggles to understand it, all the while hoping to recreate the idyllic era his kind once knew.

Skarner after retcon: RAR I AM GIANT SCORPION ALSO I MAUL PEOPLE.

Xerath before retcon: an extraordinarily powerful mage who sought to seek out the truth behind magic in hopes of saving his own life, he performed a ritual that transformed him into a being of pure arcane energy, he seeks to understand this new world on his everlasting quest for truth.

Xerath after retcon: JAGO--I MEAN RENEKTON! BRING FORTH THE FIRES OF REVOLUTION!

Sivir before retcon: a cunning and weathered mercenary who always works for the highest bidder and seeks to build her own destiny.

Sivir after retcon: ???? her quotes in the game and descriptions in the lore completely contradict her behavior in the Shurima event what is this I don't even.

That's not giving them more depth. That is in fact the exact opposite of giving them more depth.

TortferngatrOct 8, 20143 votes

You know what...

Before: Ashe Told, not shown. Had almost no personality in-game if you didn't project the lore onto her. Basically an action figure of a great political leader.

After: Ashe Shown, with extremely minimal chance to develop depth. Much less political manipulation, not nearly as accomplished a leader. Has an origin story. Does have personality, no matter how one-dimensional. Still sort of an action figure, much less of a leader.

Before: Skarner Had just as much chance to accomplish his goals as Lissandra has to do anything with her victory in the Freljord. Has a degree of personality.

After: Skarner Has not gotten a voice rework and sort of retains personality as a result; present lore is extremely vague.

Before: Xerath An extraordinarily powerful mage of Shurima who sought to seek out the truth behind magic for knowledge and arcane power, he performed a ritual that transformed him into a being of pure arcane energy while screwing over Shurima. Sealed away by those who feared his power, broke mostly free (but with his powers still partially locked) and decided to eat Nexus magic to get all free, fights in the League to get the Summoners' permission to eat Nexus magic.

After: Xerath Royal Magus of Shurima who goaded Azir into attempting Ascension, usurped Azir's Ascension for reasons yet to be specified while simultaneously screwing over Shurima, sealed by Nasus and Renekton in a sarcophagus he broke apart, sealed away much longer by Nasus in the Tomb of the Emperors with Renekton subduing him, before deciding to use the millennia trapped to convince Renekton Nasus betrayed him. Escapes when Cass decides she wants whatever's sealed in the Tomb of the Emperors. His intentions are unknown, and might remain the same as before. Presently...has no clear intentions. Eat Sun Disc magic? If anything's different it's the "manipulates Renekton" part being a bit out of character.

WAY Before: Sivir Obnoxious polygonal stick figure/mercenary who apparently wasn't interested in "cribbage sheets" and AFAIK received no notable amount of Journal of Justice coverage or even a champion judgement.

If you meant that by "before retcon," go listen to "FOR THE HONOR...OF ALL." for ten minutes and see how you feel then. Suffered from exactly the same problem as Ashe--all tell, no show. Required projecting extremely simplistic lore onto a blank, badly made canvas.

Before (come on, Sivir's relaunch came after the Freljord): Sivir Shows, not tells. A cunning and weathered desert mercenary who works for the highest bidder and seeks to build her own destiny.

After Sivir A cunning and weathered desert mercenary with a heirloom crossblade who works for the highest bidder and seeks to build her own destiny...whether the ancient ancestor she found (and somehow resurrected), the Shuriman emperor Azir, likes it or not. Shown to be horrified by her men all suddenly dying on death traps while Cass didn't even flinch.

No matter how awkwardly Carnival Knights is handling this...yeah.

DG AshabelOct 8, 201412 votes

Ashe That's pretty much incorrect. Ashe's voiceovers weren't altered during her update, she only received additional lines that fell more in line with her stubborn, cocky personality from the old lore. In addition, her lore in both versions was told rather than shown. While the old lore narrated her personal story arc through the Journal of Justice, the new lore narrates it through Quinn's diaries. The key difference is that the former has actual quotations from her, so it still shows more of her viewpoint than the new lore.

She also did have an origin story in the past, one which the new lore draws from. The one key difference is that Ashe is said to have earned her title as the Frost Archer through training and mastery of the bow. In the new lore, it's simply handed to her by her picking the crystal bow from a rock.

Skarner There is admittedly a chance that his personality has been retained, but I wouldn't expect it (partially because his current VO still references summoners). Skarner's current lines are subdued and somber, with a threatening edge when combat comes up. In the lore, he is bluntly described as a "merciless creature" who kills everyone who approaches him.

Xerath His intentions are actually spelled out. "Bristling with power and resentment, Xerath plots to reforge Valoran in the fires of revolution," also to "utterly destroy any who oppose him". In addition, the Ascension Q&A had Rioters refer to him as the "bad guy".

Sivir Sivir's original voiceover was admittedly terrible and didn't match any of her lore at all, something Riot admitted to. It was in part why her voiceover was altered. The Journal did reference some of her adventures, but she didn't receive a spotlight until very recently.

That said, your argument for her doesn't address the part where her lore description and in-game quotes don't match her behavior during the video. She is said to have huge personal issues with Noxus, yet trusts Cassiopeia enough to follow her all the way into the depths of a tomb after all her men are murdered by traps. She is described as a hardened mercenary, yet gets horrified by death. Her personality is dismissed to the point where any character could play her role with just some name replacements.

So no, my argument that the new lore lacks character depth and good delivery still stands, as does my argument that Ashe's character was completely flattened. When a character suffers from a lack of "show not tell", what you do is show. What you don't do is remove everything that can be shown.

Ark Angel HFBOct 7, 201411 votes

Noticed you once again dodged adressing a hard issue... here let me post it again for you...

Care to tell me how the following line up with a Team that is "Player First" focused.

"We want to write stories with you guys."

"We can't talk things over with you because then things wouldn't be surprises."

"We certainly will not poll players for their opinions."

"We write for you."

"We really care about the players."

"We have removed the players from the lore. Now they have no immersion in ether the game or the lore."

Funny how all of these things were said by the same team... Your actions speak a bit louder than your words though...

TortferngatrOct 8, 20143 votes

"We have removed the players from the lore. Now they have no immersion in ether the game or the lore."

...Look. If you get immersed in being a summoner and you yourself having an impact on the game world, that's great and you can spite the new lore by still doing the summoner half of that.

"We certainly will not poll players for their opinions."

But people WERE polled, and people responded "why would I want to be an anonymous summoner controlling a ninja instead of being the ninja myself?" Summoners were intended to be a bridge between the player and the game world, but turned out to be a wall more often than not.

If you don't want to be a ninja, that's fine. Stick with being a summoner. For the rest of us, immersion is better than ever. If this thread disagrees, fine.

If you want unflinching gameplay-story integration and 3-dimensional characters, play Dawngate. League's in-game experience has always been more about living out a badass fantasy than playing deep, 3-dimensional characters in a realistic universe--it's the game where you can fight robots and children and the guy from 300 to death, and who really cares. If Riot wants to suddenly have more interaction based on lore (hinting at a "campaign mode universe" compared to the PvP "game world") we might as well try to preserve the parts we find awesome and integrate them directly into the updates.

DG AshabelOct 8, 201413 votes

People weren't polled on the matter of removing summoners at any point. The sheer chaos that erupted on the forums is fine proof to how surprising the announcement was for everyone.

Also, "League has been bad at delivering lore for the last two years, therefore they should give up completely and let Dawngate steal all the thunder." isn't a very compelling argument.

If anything, they should be learning from Dawngate. Dawngate is directed by Jon Van Caneghem, the creator of King's Bounty and Might & Magic; the man who perfected character-driven turn-based strategy and polished open-world first-person RPGs to an extent where Bethesda borrowed more from his work than from their own for Morrowind. There is a lot to learn from him.

Rafael MerloOct 8, 20146 votes

People weren't polled on the matter of removing summoners at any point. The sheer chaos that erupted on the forums is fine proof to how surprising the announcement was for everyone.

Also, "League has been bad at delivering lore for the last two years, therefore they should give up completely and let Dawngate steal all the thunder." isn't a very compelling argument.

If anything, they should be learning from Dawngate. Dawngate is directed by Jon Van Caneghem, the creator of King's Bounty and Might & Magic; the man who perfected character-driven turn-based strategy and polished open-world first-person RPGs to an extent where Bethesda borrowed more from his work than from their own for Morrowind. There is a lot to learn from him.

Ouch. XD

But he deserved a response like this. No new patch or rework will take away Sona's voice interacting with me inside my mind.

Legacy of XionOct 8, 201411 votes

Ah, I see. In my mind I read "Lissandra Action Figures" and I blacked out for a second. I'm sure that's totally normal.

Short answer, no. Long answer... we want to give them a lot more depth than they might have had before, and are taking strides to accomplish that.

And with you retconning the Institute, turned Ezreal into an EMBARRASSED EXPLORER and with all this and Narrative's inability to take the blow and start giving us hope and some general idea of what you are doing, we are angry, upset, and terrified. Me personally, I'm terrified of what you'll do to my favorite champions.

Honestly, you can say you want to give them more depth. But after Karma being turned into a war pacifist instead of a rapier-tongued diplomat and the entire Trundle BS, are you really going to try and surprise us? Dude. Just, tell us what strides. Tell us what directions you are going.

Start learning from your SURPRISE Dev Blog and SURPRISE Shurima retcons. Because so far all your SURPRISES have been unleashed, you've had to face the wrath of the community.

Save a Poro (They are dying from the amount of hatred). Start communicating. Stop saying you will. Start. doing.

CupcakeTrapOct 7, 201418 votes

This makes me really sad to read. I know it may feel like that to you, but no one here is feeling any contempt or taking anyone for granted. I suppose it's on us to prove otherwise.

Riot's known for meaningful community engagement: not just "let's talk about how cool what we just created is!" but serious, in-depth discussions that take place early enough that they can truly influence what comes next. The lack of this from the Narrative team is our main complaint.

Look no further: here's a clear opportunity to engage with us ahead of time.

If you'd like to prove otherwise, here's just a random example: a thread about Bandle City and its fate. We currently have no clue which faction you have your sights set on next, but hopefully Bandle City is still far enough away that there's time for some real discussion. Or pick another faction or topic and post a thread seeking real discussion, like the balance team does before a rework.

Lay off the shock reveals, at least when they involve major retcons.

I understand the dramatic power of shock reveals, but they're just not appropriate when you're retconning major elements of a universe: by their very nature, they do not allow for prior discussion. Save the shock reveals for stories that don't tear up the foundations of the lore.

"Contempt" may seem a strong word, but I don't think it's wholly inaccurate. The impression being given is that you're not engaging in real discussion because, at the end of the day, you've decided that nothing we say will change your mind, and thus there's no point. It really does seem that you've just decided, "Okay, forget the community, let's do our own thing." Sometimes, artists have to work like that. But especially in a community-driven environment like League of Legends, I think you should very seriously reconsider this approach.

We've spent years building upon these foundations that you're tearing up.

Every time Riot overturns old lore, rewrites the setting, or remakes a character, there is a very real cost to the community. People have not only become familiar with and attached to the lore of Runeterra, but many have crafted a great deal of lore, roleplay, and other creative work on that foundation. (I suppose I'll bring up Factions again.) I don't know about "contempt", but you certainly show a lack of respect for the community when you decide that "not wanting to be 'constrained' by the League of Legends" is sufficient cause to obliterate all of this and strip the game itself of its backstory. You didn't ask us for thoughts on how the League might be reworked to resolve these "constraints", or ask us for any other such input: you were silent for years, ignoring our attempts to communicate on this topic, and then bam, blog post, we're retconned.

"Computer, end program."

I'd like to draw an analogy to Star Trek. There's another universe with a lot of community investment. When they went to make the new movies, they handwaved in a wacky "alternate universe" plot element. Why? Because it allowed them to formally maintain the existing canon. Was it a little awkward? Yes. But it shows that the authors behind that universe respected their community deeply enough to come up with a way to make it clear that nothing was being erased or rewritten, even as they created what would otherwise be a total reboot.

tl;dr: Too many shock reveals. Too little meaningful engagement.

CuixOct 7, 201411 votes

This makes me really sad to read. I know it may feel like that to you, but no one here is feeling any contempt or taking anyone for granted. I suppose it's on us to prove otherwise.

So long as you continue to write your stories in silence and then throw them at us in finalized forms, you'll provide more than enough proof of just how ready you are to take fans for granted. But, hey, Riot is big enough to do that now. Why bother actually having dialogue with us, when vacuous PR speak looks nicer and doesn't require as much thought?

Besides, you know what we want better than we do. You knew we wanted Trundle deleted and replaced by a big burly bully. You knew we didn't really enjoy Karma's matronly grace. You knew we had no attachment to Skarner's place in the story of Runeterra. You knew the Institute and Summoners were just fluff we wanted to discard. You know what stories we want, and you'll make them on your own, and we'll say we don't want them and don't like them because... I dunno, maybe we're just tsundere or something. It doesn't matter, just keep steamrolling on.

LuninarephOct 7, 20149 votes

You knew we didn't really enjoy Karma's matronly grace.

This, this, this, a million times this. I'm sure people are sick of my harping on and on about this, but I haven't been able to enjoy LoL the same way since this happened.

TortferngatrOct 8, 20141 votes

Grumpy Monkey has responded to this in the Sion relaunch Q&A.

Today those reworks would be handled differently.

CuixOct 8, 20144 votes

Lots of talk with no substance. They've already retconned Skarner, Jax, and Lee Sin into completely different people with no dialogue about it, with the latter two essentially floating in limbo right now. Moreover, I have little reason to trust Grumpy, as he deleted Trundle after saying he wouldn't, then never actually apologized for doing so.

DG AshabelOct 7, 201412 votes

This makes me really sad to read. I know it may feel like that to you, but no one here is feeling any contempt or taking anyone for granted. I suppose it's on us to prove otherwise.

Your previous response to my post addressed a single sentence while completely ignoring everything else, assuming that I will swallow yet another apology and request for trust. I had to call you out before you started actually answering. So yes, you took me for granted in that you simply dismissed my perspective of the situation.

I assume you're referring to the short bios? As has been said before, long ones (that also progress the story) are in the works - but we took a fair bit of feedback from lore aficionados and retooled them. That takes a bit of time, which I agree sucks, but hopefully the end result will solve the issue of newer players interested in lore having a full background for their favorite characters. Once again, it is up to us to prove we've taken your concerns to heart.

No, I'm referring to all the lore. All of it. None of the lore is currently present on the website. You have faction names such as Demacia, Piltover, Ionia and Independent on champion pages, but they don't actually mean anything because none of it is explained anywhere on the website. A player would have to go digging for the game's unofficial wiki to understand what any of those words mean.

The only officially available lore is those short champion pages, all of which are being replaced by flavorful "This champion is so Cool / Creepy / Mysterious / Random Word Of Moderate Fascination!" and thus don't actually teach players anything about lore or continuity.

As far as official information goes, your game currently doesn't have lore at all.

Also, I see you quietly replaced Ahri's faction with Ionia instead of Independent. I can't even get angry about that anymore. Your team has wrecked the lore behind one of my three mains, should've expected that you'd do that to another one.

While I'd personally love a couple super-sick Lissandra action figures (is somebody from merch reading this? Hello?), I'm sorry to say that's just not true. It's more like we're staging the world for even more stories.

That still doesn't actually address my statement about your new stories being marketing campaigns that sells champions as product, not stories that engage us players in the world of Runeterra (an idea you seem to despise) or ones that create story progression.

TortferngatrOct 8, 20149 votes

This thread seems to be trending towards the following ultimatum:

Either release deep new lore for reasons other than hyping a new champion or retconning old lore (indicating you're doing good lore for the sake of good lore and not for the sake of marketing/necessity) or GTFO.

Prose lore only available on the forums counts.

I do not necessarily agree with this ultimatum, but that is what I understand the thread to be saying.

SmokingPuffinOct 7, 20148 votes

I know it's frustrating to repeatedly be asked to 'trust us on this,' but we want to write stories with you guys in mind. Maybe we'll misstep along the way, but these problems are definitely not being ignored.

So write us some stories. People are willing to tolerate experimental forms of storytelling where some of them maybe don't work very well.

People aren't willing to tolerate a lore vacuum, which is what we have today.

I know it's frustrating to repeatedly be asked to 'trust us on this,' but we want to write stories with you guys in mind.

To be blunt, you lost the community's trust quite a while ago. If you want it back, you have to earn it. Give us three solid releases of cool lore and we'll be on your team again.

Sneak DogOct 7, 20146 votes

I don't want experimental stories at all! I don't want another Trundle, a replacement of a character I cared about for a new one, going unaddressed for well over a year aside from I think three posts from non-lore Rioters that maybe the complaints that he might not be the same troll anymore are valid.

Don't experiment if you can't repair the damage it might do.

SmokingPuffinOct 7, 20146 votes

To be clear, I was referring to experimental methods of storytelling, not experimental stories. Things like lore-based events, graphic novels, clips on youtube discussing characters, and so on.

I hope the new lore direction doesn't change much about character personalities or relationships. Removal of the IoW shouldn't make Lee Sin a different person, just give his actions a different context.

DG AshabelOct 8, 20149 votes

That's not even experimental anymore. Dawngate has a webcomic that updates three times a week, regularly posted audio dramas on YouTube and short stories on the forums. They also have regular votes where people can influence the lore's progression by voting which path the character should take. All of those are exceptionally well-received.

At this point, it feels more like League's narrative team doesn't have the confidence in their own writing.

EleshakaiOct 8, 20141 votes

I know it's frustrating to repeatedly be asked to 'trust us on this,' but we want to write stories with you guys in mind. Maybe we'll misstep along the way, but these problems are definitely not being ignored.

So write us some stories. People are willing to tolerate experimental forms of storytelling where some of them maybe don't work very well.

People aren't willing to tolerate a lore vacuum, which is what we have today.

I know it's frustrating to repeatedly be asked to 'trust us on this,' but we want to write stories with you guys in mind.

To be blunt, you lost the community's trust quite a while ago. If you want it back, you have to earn it. Give us three solid releases of cool lore and we'll be on your team again.

My problem, on a personal level, with responses like this is that you're not willing to give them the time, tools, or opportunity to prove themselves. The second they tell you 'we're working on it' people like you and cupcaketrap and philomelle are jumping on them bitching about the things they're trying to establish as a foundation for exactly what you want.

I understand not trusting them... but holy crap you guys are acting like 6 year olds who just had their favourite toy taken away and it's really sad to see such intelligent people devolving into incredibly whiny children. I know that you guys are intelligent - it's immediately evident and apparent in the way you structure your sentences and the vocabulary you use and the ideas you come up with.

But man, the way you're acting... does NOT convey that same intelligence... and I simply do not understand why you guys are completely unwilling to take a step back, think for a bit, and realize that you guys are not acting like your normal reasonable selves... and that the way you're acting is actually doing everyone - yourselves, riot, and even those of us who are not a part of this - a lot more harm than good.

I get it, you're upset over the current transitionary state... but a cocoon isn't very useful to anyone, yet the caterpillar needs it to turn into a butterfly. Yes, things are going incredibly slow. We all know that, so do they and everyone is unhappy with it. I'm not going to ask you to trust them, I know very well you don't... all I'm going to ask is that you wait until they've finished laying the groundwork and can start actually ATTEMPTING to deliver their promises before you accuse them of failing to deliver...

DG AshabelOct 8, 201411 votes

My problem, on a personal level, with responses like this is that you're not willing to give them the time, tools, or opportunity to prove themselves. The second they tell you 'we're working on it' people like you and cupcaketrap and philomelle are jumping on them bitching about the things they're trying to establish as a foundation for exactly what you want.

That would be because we've been waiting for two years already. When someone waits for two years and is rewarded with a "We give up on lore altogether and are removing it from the game, but here is a marketing campaign where the story keeps contradicting itself and you'll now buy our new fancy champion and discounted skins, right?", the whiplash generally burns out the remnants of their patience.

I have been very patient. I accepted things like the Freljord rework despite what it turned my precious Ashe into, and I endured through the completely hollow and pointless Shadow Isles "update". But I can be patient for only so much time and when the narrative team keeps on blatantly ignoring what people want, I can't do it anymore. Trusting them any further would be the height of battered wife syndrome. It would be like someone shoved you off the stairs every time they had the chance, then said "Hey, come up to the top of the stairs with me, I promise I won't shove you this time".

It's completely illogical to trust them at this point. I simply cannot trust someone who dismisses everything spoken on a massive forum filled with upset people and takes their investment in a game for granted. What they do is look at me, know I've been in the game for three years and have spent hundreds of dollars on it (there are maybe 60 skins I don't own), and assume I won't leave because I'm too attached, therefore they can do whatever they want.

trying to establish as a foundation for exactly what you want.

Where exactly are they trying to do that? The vast majority of the community is crying for the return of the old lore, all discussions on the Story forums are still built around the ideas of old lore. In the meantime, the narrative team still waste time insisting that we'll love the new lore once they finally, finally release it. That might be establishing a foundation for them thinking they know what we want better than we do, but it's certainly not a foundation for taking our opinion into account.

Their window of opportunity for getting people attached to the new lore was during the week after they released the retcon announcement. People were upset, but still curious about what the new story could entail. They were upset about losing their immersion in the story, but hopeful and eager to play around with the new setting, assuming that the reason the lore team was silent for over a year was to prepare all the necessary assets for the new narrative direction.

That opportunity went down in fire when instead of a complete rundown of the altered setting, we got a two-week long Azir commercial and mumbled excuses about how "everything is exactly the same but without the Institute" (which said commercial already proved wrong). At this point, people would sooner set any further foundation for the reboot on fire than accept it. To call this a complete and utter PR disaster would have been a compliment.

EleshakaiOct 8, 20142 votes

Philomelle...

You quoted parts of my post, but didn't even read the entire post... this is exactly what I'm talking about. I explicitly said I wasn't asking you to trust them, that I'm well aware you don't. And yet you come back with 'it's illogical to trust them'... it's like you're not even trying to have a discussion, you just want to rant... and if so, that's fine. But don't try to pretend you want a discussion then.

And I'm going to be completely blunt and honest with you. If you genuinely think that as a consumer of a video game you DESERVE a say in the story of that game, you're an idiot. That attitude is what led to the whole Mass Effect BS backlash. You don't. I don't. We don't. We do not deserve any say in the story. We can tell them we dislike it, absolutely - we are 100% entitled to our opinion. And I will never call you wrong for your opinion.

But assuming that they should be CONSULTING you for your opinion on their ARTISTIC WORK(which is what BOTH video games and stories are) is utterly and completely absurd. It is the pinnacle of arrogance and stupidity.

Ark Angel HFBOct 8, 20149 votes

And I'm going to be completely blunt and honest with you. If you genuinely think that as a consumer of a video game you DESERVE a say in the story of that game, you're an idiot. That attitude is what led to the whole Mass Effect BS backlash.

Yeah funny you bring that up... Cause most of M.E. was written in the open with a LOT of fan input. Even M.E.3 was written this way... until the ending. where fans where shut out and a grand total of 2 people wrote and edited it...

Notice a patern.

See the thing with "Lore" is... that it is inherently silly. It is all made up and stupid. HOWEVER, WE as a group of people come together and agree to kinda make believe that this made up thing maters. It is a kind of social contract of safety and trust that what we are caring about is "cool"... even when it isn't.

Retcons strike at the heart of that contract by evaluating, something that We agreed to care about, as "not Worthy".

This doesn't just break the trust, but harms the feelings of fans about the entire work involved.

So in closing... fans shut out... refusal to listen to customer opinion... Sub pair content, with massive logical flaws mind you, delivered at the first showing...

Did Riot hire the M.E.3 ending dudes?

DG AshabelOct 8, 20147 votes

Did Riot hire the M.E.3. dudes?

They actually did. Kitae, who was in charge of the Freljord event, was a Lead Designer on Mass Effect 2-3. She no longer works in Riot Games, apparently.

I really miss her. She actually engaged in discussion with fans and listened to them, she adjusted Udyr's and Jayce's lore when people complained that the originals felt like they didn't do characters justice. She very obviously learned very valuable lessons from the M.E.3 fiasco and she understood that true art isn't created in a vacuum.

A shame that she didn't teach any of those lessons to the current narrative team.

MotajoOct 8, 20141 votes

I thought I had read somewhere that she is in some general design job in Riot now, instead of on the lore team specifically. I can't remember where or when, though, so I could easily be wrong.

DG AshabelOct 8, 20144 votes

I heard that as well, but this post claims that she left Riot Games completely shortly following Shurima. There's been some buzz about her running from a sinking ship, since the narrative lead also quit right after the enormous backlash directed at the new lore.

However, there is no hard confirmation that she quit Riot completely, which is why I said "apparently".

PhoenixSlayer13Oct 9, 20144 votes

Funny how people hated Kitae as well and demanded more communication from her.

League lore has been on a slowly sinking ship for a long, long time. I think we're just about to reach the bottom, with barely a glimmer of hope for salvage in the future.

DG AshabelOct 8, 201412 votes

I did read your entire post. It's basically four paragraphs of complaining about how we dare to question bad game design.

And I'm going to be completely blunt and honest with you. If you genuinely think that as a consumer of a video game you DESERVE a say in the story of that game, you're an idiot. That attitude is what led to the whole Mass Effect BS backlash. You don't. I don't. We don't. We do not deserve any say in the story. We can tell them we dislike it, absolutely - we are 100% entitled to our opinion. And I will never call you wrong for your opinion.

Is that the lesson you took away from the M.E.3 fiasco? Is that really?

Bioware openly admitted that their behavior during the Mass Effect fiasco was one gigantic mistake. They openly admitted that they were wrong in discarding the consumer's input and calling them entitled. When they were sued over the M.E.3 ending, the court ruled them guilty of false advertisement. Both of the company's founders resigned and quit the industry because of their mistreatment of the community during that incident, and the company did their best to apologize by producing a free DLC that expands on the ending.

One of ME3's lead designers, Kitae, later joined Riot Games. Although her involvement with the company was during the infamous Trundle rework, she did state repeatedly how important discussion with fans is when one is working on a franchise with a long history. She rewrote lore multiple times when customers complained, adjusting Udyr, Jayce and Viktor into more complex characters according to feedback. She acknowledged that fans deserve to have a say in stories that have a big legacy and acted on it.

You should be ashamed of supporting that ancient "customers are entitled and shouldn't be consulted or they might compromise the poor artiste developers' artistic integrity" rant. Most Bioware members are still ashamed of having posted it in the first place.

EleshakaiOct 8, 20142 votes

I did read your entire post. It's basically four paragraphs of complaining about how we dare to question bad game design.

And I'm going to be completely blunt and honest with you. If you genuinely think that as a consumer of a video game you DESERVE a say in the story of that game, you're an idiot. That attitude is what led to the whole Mass Effect BS backlash. You don't. I don't. We don't. We do not deserve any say in the story. We can tell them we dislike it, absolutely - we are 100% entitled to our opinion. And I will never call you wrong for your opinion.

Is that the lesson you took away from the M.E.3 fiasco? Is that really?

Bioware openly admitted that their behavior during the Mass Effect fiasco was one gigantic mistake. They openly admitted that they were wrong in discarding the consumer's input and calling them entitled. When they were sued over the M.E.3 ending, the court ruled them guilty of false advertisement. Both of the company's founders resigned and quit the industry because of their mistreatment of the community during that incident, and the company did their best to apologize by producing a free DLC that expands on the ending.

One of ME3's lead designers, Kitae, later joined Riot Games. Although her involvement with the company was during the infamous Trundle rework, she did state repeatedly how important discussion with fans is when one is working on a franchise with a long history. She rewrote lore multiple times when customers complained, adjusting Udyr, Jayce and Viktor into more complex characters according to feedback. She acknowledged that fans deserve to have a say in stories that have a big legacy and acted on it.

You should be ashamed of supporting that ancient "customers are entitled and shouldn't be consulted or they might compromise the poor artiste developers' artistic integrity" rant. Most Bioware members are still ashamed of having posted it in the first place.

Wow... okay, you really aren't as intelligent as I thought you were. Fair enough. Thanks for clearing that up.

DG AshabelOct 8, 20148 votes

And you are clearly a genius, seeing as your thought processes are so vast and incomprehensible to mortal folk that even your own feeble human brain cannot keep up with them, your ability to uphold a conversation thus reduced to pettily insulting others.

Blaine TogOct 8, 20149 votes

Eleshakai:

But assuming that they should be CONSULTING you for your opinion on their ARTISTIC WORK(which is what BOTH video games and stories are) is utterly and completely absurd. It is the pinnacle of arrogance and stupidity.

They should be consulting us, though. It’s foolish of them not to. The advantage of telling a story through a video game is that you get a bunch of inherent immersion and character attachment to work with. The disadvantage of telling a story through a video game, then, is that you have a bunch of inherent immersion and character attachment to take into account. It’s a massive advantage since you typically have to work really hard to get your audience attached to a character, to care about the stories involving them, but the disadvantage can be similarly massive as well. You can’t just write whatever you want: you have to write with the game squarely in mind, and you have to take player actions (as well as reactions) into account.

Still, it doesn't need to be that hard to handle. Just listen to the players and do your best to distill their desires, allowing yourself to be the final arbiter without becoming a story tyrant. It can be a rough road to walk and I don't mean to minimize that, but refusing to walk it is simply imprudent. It ignores the facts of the medium, to your peril.

EleshakaiOct 8, 20142 votes

Eleshakai:

But assuming that they should be CONSULTING you for your opinion on their ARTISTIC WORK(which is what BOTH video games and stories are) is utterly and completely absurd. It is the pinnacle of arrogance and stupidity.

They should be consulting us, though. It’s foolish of them not to. The advantage of telling a story through a video game is that you get a bunch of inherent immersion and character attachment to work with. The disadvantage of telling a story through a video game, then, is that you have a bunch of inherent immersion and character attachment to take into account. It’s a massive advantage since you typically have to work really hard to get your audience attached to a character, to care about the stories involving them, but the disadvantage can be similarly massive as well. You can’t just write whatever you want: you have to write with the game squarely in mind, and you have to take player actions (as well as reactions) into account.

Still, it doesn't need to be that hard to handle. Just listen to the players and do your best to distill their desires, allowing yourself to be the final arbiter without becoming a story tyrant. It can be a rough road to walk and I don't mean to minimize that, but refusing to walk it is simply imprudent. It ignores the facts of the medium, to your peril.

Design by committee never works. Numerous projects have failed because they tried exactly what you suggest. Of course it's valuable to hear what the community has to say... but feeling entitled to consultation like you're some sort of professional expert and being furious when they didn't seek you out for your opinion? That's when it borders on arrogance and imbecillic behaviour.

DG AshabelOct 8, 201410 votes

There is a large difference between "design by community" and "asking for feedback". While design by community is certainly not efficient, seeking feedback on specific changes and design decisions is, as has been proved again and again by how Riot's gameplay design team keeps asking for feedback on abilities, how IronStylus keeps asking for art and how Kitae has been asking to evaluate the quality of lore written by her back in the day.

Perhaps you should start using your extraordinarily vast intelligence on such constructive things as studying various aspects of creative work. Calling everyone around you idiots and imbeciles while misusing basic terms isn't working out for you very well.

EleshakaiOct 8, 20142 votes

There is a large difference between "design by community" and "asking for feedback". While design by community is certainly not efficient, seeking feedback on specific changes and design decisions is, as has been proved again and again by how Riot's gameplay design team keeps asking for feedback on abilities, how IronStylus keeps asking for art and how Kitae has been asking to evaluate the quality of lore written by her back in the day.

Perhaps you should start using your extraordinarily vast intelligence on such constructive things as studying various aspects of creative work. Calling everyone around you idiots and imbeciles while misusing basic terms isn't working out for you very well.

Please quit putting words in my mouth... err... on my fingers. I never once stated I was intelligent. I didn't even imply it... I merely said that expecting a company to consult you when writing their story and getting mad if they choose not to is imbecillic.

There are many other ways in which I display stupidity, so I wouldn't say I'm any more intelligent - I hardly have the evidence to support such a claim... but that doesn't change that you ARE displaying arrogance and stupidity here.

DG AshabelOct 8, 201410 votes

You've been doing nothing but calling people names since you stepped into this thread, and you haven't really contributed much to the discussion either. You say something, people either point out that they don't want what you imply they do at all, or present evidence that your arguments have already been proven wrong. But rather than make a decent response for them, what you do is call them idiots and imbeciles.

Your manner of carrying yourself certainly reeks of unbridled self-righteousness. I would recommend that you do stick with my story of thinking you're too intelligent for the rest of us peasants, rather than with your story of "I don't consider myself all that intelligent but you guys are still imbeciles". The first one makes you look simply pompous; the second makes you look like an asshole.

EleshakaiOct 8, 20142 votes

You've been doing nothing but calling people names since you stepped into this thread, and you haven't really contributed much to the discussion either. You say something, people either point out that they don't want what you imply they do at all, or present evidence that your arguments have already been proven wrong. But rather than make a decent response for them, what you do is call them idiots and imbeciles.

Your manner of carrying yourself certainly reeks of unbridled self-righteousness. I would recommend that you do stick with my story of thinking you're too intelligent for the rest of us peasants, rather than with your story of "I don't consider myself all that intelligent but you guys are still imbeciles". The first one makes you look simply pompous; the second makes you look like an asshole.

"Done nothing but calling people names" My first post explicitly states that I think you're very intelligent, that you tend to show that intelligence, but that you're doing things at this time that are not in line with that intelligence...

yep, nothing but calling people names. You CLEARLY read my first post in great detail.

Maybe I should edit your name out of there though, 'cause you've proven me wrong.

DG AshabelOct 8, 20147 votes

Saying "Guys, you are very smart BUT..." early on doesn't really justify you resorting to insults as soon as people disagree with you, or the passive-aggressiveness you're displaying right now.

All my points from above remain.

DG AshabelOct 8, 20146 votes

Pretty sure you didn't care in the first place, mon. If you did care about improving behavior on these boards, you wouldn't have resorted to ad hominem the second people disagreed with you.

Try to not toot your own horn so much next time you lecture others.

Sneak DogOct 8, 20148 votes

Stop arguing with people, start arguing with arguments. There is no need to compliment/insult people, it only detracts from your credibility and if its the latter, you'll just get hated or banned.

Ark Angel HFBOct 9, 20145 votes

Stop arguing with people, start arguing with arguments. There is no need to compliment/insult people, it only detracts from your credibility and if its the latter, you'll just get hated or banned.

^ no really I don't even always agree with Sneak Dog... I think he/she is smelly...

But they are very right about this.

Sneak DogOct 9, 20147 votes

I come back out of the shower just to read this... I love you now. Come to think of it, it's scary that I'm starting to recognize people because I see them posting decent to great posts in there lore threads all the time. Rito pls?

DiahaneOct 9, 20143 votes

I come back out of the shower just to read this... I love you now. Come to think of it, it's scary that I'm starting to recognize people because I see them posting decent to great posts in there lore threads all the time. Rito pls?

It's happening to me too. For instance, I know that the first reference ever to Trundle in a thread will come from you xD The passion you have for the (old) character really seeps through the monitor.