New monsters in jungle?

DesertRaiderSRB·Jan 30, 2019·1 votes·1,463 views

We have good amount of monsters in jungle but every time when i play jg i have some feeling that more monsters need to be more interesting playing jungle.

1:Green Buff (For Tanky or semi tanky champs like ww or olaf) 2:Bigger Jungle 3:More bushes 4:Spiders (I dont have much to say it would be cool if Riot added spiders in jungle) 5:Giant Snake as new mini boss like herald 6:Golems from Twisted Treeline

Thats it i hope you like it [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

6 Comments

GilgayuJan 30, 20191 votes

This can be viable for other game modes (that don't use Summoner's Rift)

It would be unwise to change the current jungle. It will hurt the new gamers, and pratically destroy the system challenger junglers are used to. Changing anything on the map (either it's minions/turrets/monster, etc.) will affect top gamers a lot. Just to give an example, challenger gamers know when will the camps spawn accurate to the seconds.

It sure would be cool for Riot to make more rotation modes with camps though, currently most rotation modes are literally either destroy npc or get as many kills as possible (with the exception of Noxus Blitz). ________________________________- About jungle being interesting... Idk man, it is very hard to make it "interesting." It is somewhat similar to laning. You have to expect vertical jungling, counter ganking, and even scuttle fights these days take a lot of thoughts. The best part about playing jungle is essentially being the team's support. You are the only one able to affect all lanes. It is the reason why jungle is considered the strongest position, and it is also the reason why jungle camps are getting nerfs after nerfs

ChaosReynJan 30, 20191 votes

Personally, the jungle changes almost every season right now anyway, in some respect. The last couple changes have been almost invisible ones, meant to push junglers into ganking lanes. For Riot to add more camps would be redundant...and at the same time, it would probably be a bit easier for them to balance were they to have more material to run with.

Jungle changes and balance are never easy, and Riot makes it even harder on themselves by making everyone who can't get a kill before lv 6 pretty ill-suited or the role...hence why you don't see a lot of Fiddlesticks or Shyvanna in the jungle anymore - unless you're already really good at playing them, they're nowhere near as potent as other junglers that gank earlier instead of farming to 6.

And we're also talking about the 100-to-0 in 0.5s meta...so tankier junglers with lower clear times are also less frequently used. That makes me sad, because those guys (specifically Naut and Gragas) were the only ones I was decent with in the jungle, but they just fall behind way too easily with the current jungle iteration because by the time they get their first clear, the enemy has likely already cleared, ganked a lane, and went back for their first item.

Before I end up digressing too much, I think the thing that the jungle most needs right now (though this is a very biased opinion) is an item that gives tank junglers a little more AoE clear to keep them relevant.

"But Reyn, HINDERHULK!!!"

That's one item, and generally by the time an average tank jungler can buy it, their opposing AD dps jungler will already have rushed a tiamat and went back to complete their jungle item of choice...or played Korean cheese Twitch and got their jungle item after setting your bot or mid lane 1-2 levels behind, but the main thing is that first part. Tiamat being available early on to these types of AD/DPS junglers is one of the very key factors in how people like Jarvan, Warwick, Shaco and Yi get ahead of the rest of the pack very quickly. The other is in their generally earlier ganks. Allowing tankier junglers like Sion, Naut and Gragas to have something to AoE a bit quicker would mean they can countergank on time, and be more relevant.

As for mage junglers...they're a lot harder to balance, because they're a lot harder to pin to a more general reason they fall behind. Fiddle is slow, but one of the healthiest junglers. A change to make him faster would make Diana, for example, one of the strongest champions in the entire game, since she clears pretty decently fast, but has trouble in picking a good gank pre-6. Trying to give her something that allows her to gank better would make Nidalee insane, since she's got decent clear and gank potential, but is really prone to being counterjungled since her early game is not really suited for a 1v1, especially if she misses her spear. Trying to give some item to help her early game will loop it back to making Fiddlesticks literally impossible to fight.

But since tank junglers all suffer from the same generic issue (not being able to clear fast enough to be able to respond to enemy map pressure) they can all benefit from a more general fix.

GilgayuJan 30, 20191 votes

I'm curious about what do you think junglers should be. or rather, how much power can they have?

I'll group my "ideals" in categories.

1v5 junglers: (late game monsters) refers to graves, master yi, kha'zix, etc.

forced to power farm
weak clear
weak early game/ gank potential
ability to counterjungle
decent carry potential but requires good gank (not the master yi: i ult, i kill, bs)

Current problems:

way to strong early game, meaning they can gank all day long
power spikes too early, they are legit the only type of jungler you see
doesn't take much skill beside understanding of your own kit

gank, gank, gank, junglers: (early game playmakers) refers to elise, camille, rek'sai, etc.

fast clear
strong ganks
grows weak mid-late game
strong 1v1 early game (need that scuttle)

Current problems:

Weak, just weak. Look at rek'sai.
Not even strong enough to 1v1 late game junglers for scuttle

you can't kill me jungler: (tanks being played jungle) refers to mundo, cho'gath, gragas(he kinda belongs to type 2)

decent clear
benefit greatly from powerfarming
able to countergank really well
Mr. cc train

Current problems:

most of them are either too strong for pro or too weak for "casual"
barely have any objective controls unless their team helps

I feel like besides a few jungler (gragas, sejuani, etc.). This is a class of junglers that basically "abuses" cinderhulk. They are essentially big chucks of hp that people can't kill in team fights (supposedly anyway) and is an additional protection for adcs

Mages/marksmen junglers (weak and hard to play) refers to fiddle, kindred, and definitely not graves

ability to become an addtional carry (but not like the 1v5 junglers, more like a normal adc that needs to be protected)
some sustain or kitting potential (or else they can't clear the camps)
decent clear
somewhat average gank, more like a roam to be honest

Current problems:

mages are killed too easily, and they have no powerful gank before 6.
marksmen don't provide the strongest gank, but they can fight around scuttles really well

Well, these are the four main categories I'm aware of. Tbh after patches continuing nerfing camp exp, Riot should probably lower the respawn timer so power farmers can be in meta once again (and mages, too).

ChaosReynJan 31, 20191 votes

I'm gonna write it a bit differently here.

Tier 1 thru 5 (5 being weakest) and attempting to explain exactly why I think that. I'm not going to cover every champion, but I will cover the ones I think are most notable (since we can all agree that there are certain champions that just have no place in the jungle, and are really only going to be played as a jungler by someone REALLY devoted to an OTP on their champ) I will probably miss a couple, and this is all still technically an opinion, but for the most part I hope to give enough to cover the basic idea.

Tier 1: "The Murderers"

These guys are the ones that will generally be played by showing up in your lane and exploding you before you can move or react, or otherwise have a method to deal this insane amount of damage to you without really taking any in return (looking at Yi, Kayn, Jax and WW for their various "can't harm me" methods). I would put Pantheon in this group as well, but I'm dropping him a tier because of his inability to do enough damage in the late game to compete with these guys, whereas these guys will murder you in a 1v1 in the jungle, and murder you in a 1v5 before 20 minutes if they get going at all. The key thing to notice here is that pretty much all of these guys are AD DPS champs (the only exceptions are that Shaco and Jax can both technically play as AP, and if you've ever seen AP assassin Jax's burst, he can actually delete you faster than Rengar) Also keep in mind we're talking about full AD Jarvan, as trying to play him as a tank will place him in tier 2...and I'm trying not to place a champion in multiple tiers. Most of them can gank you reasonably early, and all of them will OBLITERATE you post 6. They all have moderate-to-fast clear time, and decent counterjungle potential, and all but a few have the mobility and tools to get them out of the enemy jungle unscathed if they get caught counterjungling...if they don;t just murder you for intruding on "their" jungle.

Tier 2: "The Playmakers"

These guys are a lot more diverse than tier 1 is, but the general case with all of them is that these guys are all centered primarily around ganks or counterganks. They're not as potent in most cases as Tier one in terms of raw power (most probably wont win a 1v1 against a Tier 1 Murder jungler pre-6, with the exception of maybe Pantheon, unless they had a tactical advantage to start) but their gank potential is extremely scary and almost always lethal. The three top "racecar" junglers are in here, as well as the two "drop on your face from nowhere" junglers...this is mainly due to their ability to pretty much delete someone by proccing predator or their ult and creating a massacre. Either the movespeed or the ultimates of any of these champions essentially Guarantee a kill. I was going to put Nautilus and Zac in here, but I'm putting them in Tier 3 for their abysmal clear times. I was also going to put Skarner in here, but without his ult, his ganks don't pack anywhere near the potency of these junglers, so I'm moving him to Tier 3 as well.

Tier 3: "Old Reliable"

Most of these guys are in this category because they can do everything that the tier 2 guys can do, but do it a lot slower. The main talent that these guy all share, however, is that they're a lot healthier than the tier 2 junglers. Some of these guys can potentially outduel tiers above them in a fair 1v1 fight (particularly looking at Fid, Trundle and Volibear) due to their ability to deal decent damage while gaining health (or in Voli's case, going to 30% hp then healing back up to like 65%). I'm going to get a lot of hell for putting Trundle here instead of tier 2 (He has great clear time!) but unless you're really good with his pillar, he's considered T3 from a lack of reliable ganks. Still, these guys at some point in the game are going to be relevant, annoying, and very difficult to deal with in their own respective rights, and deserve to be noted as junglers that can definitely be more potent than even tier 1 or 2 junglers if they go unchecked or gain the upper hand early. These junglers are the ones I talked about earlier, that generally fall behind because of either a lack of clear time, or a lack of consistently strong ganks (but not both)

Tier 4: "Area Denied"

Before I get into this, I want to note that the only reason I have for placing the champions following these guys in Tier 5 are because the Tier 5 members are only really good for a specific strategy, whereas these guys may still have a shot if their primary strategy goes wrong because they're not weak more than they are very bad in certain areas. Speaking of areas, you'll notice that most of these guys are counter-junglers and power farmers. The biggest problem with playing these champions is in their actual design: more aggressive junglers are going to slaughter them in a 1v1, whereas tankier junglers will outlast them in a 1v1, for the most part. Obviously, a Shyvanna is more than capable of handling herself in a 1v1 fight, but she has no real way to handle being kited, and no way to actually follow up on fighting the enemy if their team even thinks about roaming if she hopes to live. But what these champions are really good at is being where the enemy jungler isn't to steal all their resources. The reason this is ranked so low is because the meta right now is stacked against them: Riot wants to force players to gank more often. The reward for successful ganks is much greater than power-farming and counterjungling due to the monster hunter debuff. Thus, if your opponent is consistently ganking successfully, you're really only preventing them from snowballing out of control by taking their farm, you're not really getting ahead yourself. This counter-jungling strategy is very team reliant in that regard - vision control on your part and good communication to prevent your team from getting constantly ganked are very key parts to play in using these guys. Karthas in general also sticks out, as even though he doesn't actually gank, he must always be aware to ult, even if he's in the middle of taking a camp, in order to help his team, as he literally never leaves the jungle in certain games (particularly against highly mobile teams that he's not going to really impact with his W) A few of these guys are actually some of the strongest junglers in professional play (and I really hope to see a Jungle Bard in the pro circuit soon, cause he's super underrated) but fail in solo/duo and lower lever play due to low coordination.

Tier 5: "The Specialists" and any other champion that you probably wouldn't see in the jungle normally.

These guys are the most diverse group, and the hardest to actually group together, but they're pretty much some of the very strange, definitely not meta things I've seen that are still consistently jungle viable. When you see these guys in the jungle, you almost immediately can snap to exactly what they're going to do (e.g. when you see twitch jungle, you're almost guaranteed to see someone type in chat "beware cheese gank" because he's almost certainly going to take his red buff, stealth into someone's lane, and attempt to get a kill.) A lot of these strats, since they're well known, are very easy to play against and shut down, leading to a bad day for these players that becomes really difficult to mount a comeback from. The reason a lot of these champions other than Twitch and TF are in tier 5 is essentially due to a horrible early game, particularly in terms of dueling potential. The main exception to this would be Ryze, but even in his case, if he fights a straight up duel, he's more than likely going to have to go back and heal immediately instead of being able to clear another camp.

GilgayuJan 31, 20191 votes

{quoted} The reward for successful ganks is much greater than power-farming and counterjungling...

Well said, that basically sums up the current jungle meta. This is also the biggest problem in the system. Late game champions shouldn't be able to have powerful ganks. For champions like kha'zix or rengar, it's alright because they don't have consistant damage for early game ganks. For other champions like master yi and camille, their early game pressure is just... unbalanced.

What I want to see is really tier 1, 2, and 3 all tier 1's. Each of them should have their own pros and cons, rather than just tier 1 has more pros than tier 2. There is also a significant difference between tier 1 murderer and all the other tiers. It is the fact that they take all the kills for themselves, while other junglers give the kills to the laners more or less.

I think a way to fix that ^ is to change kill rewards for junglers. What I mean is that by having any jungle item, kills will only give half gold if the traget doesn't have a jungle item. Assists, however, will grant 30/50/70 extra gold (depending on the jungle item's tier). This in a way is similar to monster hunter, but severely limits the jungler's ability to snowball the whole map (as of right now, jungler can just camp top lane, get fed, and use that advantage to gank all other lanes). This will also bring the tankier, more playmaking-focused junglers back to meta.

What do you think? I think that change can be decent. If you think it's good I'll try to post the idea in gameplay+.

(by the way what position do you play? I mainly play top, mid, and jungle. Sometimes I also play adc or support if duoing with a friend.)

Edit: funny how the OP never participated in any of this lol feelsbadman

ChaosReynJan 31, 20191 votes

I'm sure he'll get to it eventually. Probably read this whole thing and go "what the f%%k, I asked about new camps and got a 500 word essay about jungle tiers."

I'd say my main two roles for this season are probably mid and support...but I'm a lot closer to a "jack of all trades" kind of guy until it comes to jungling. If my jungle strategy doesn't go according to plan, I don't recover well...and since they moved my tank junglers out of the meta, anything I run is way too slow for any of my friends to even allow me to try anymore. xD "You never gank! I've been ganked like 4x already!" ...I'm Maokai, I move at the speed of tree, what do you expect?

Anyway, I essentially admit that I really don't know enough about the specifics of the jungle to go suggesting any major balance changes...but I know enough from watching people play, watching a few replays when the enemy jungler destroys me in a way that's new to me, or otherwise joining conversations like this about patch notes with my friends that have actual skill in the jungle to sort of fill out this sort of opinion.