Automatic Assumption of Guilt and No Justice for Innocent People.

Tinlegs·Sep 21, 2016·7 votes·1,599 views

I have been playing online games for a long time and I have never used a hack / exploit to improve my score. I could never see the point in it as what ever result you got wouldn't be your achievement. The only way I have had fun with games is to work hard and work out how to improve.

Now I am facing the situation where Riot has put in place a system that not only assumes you are guilty but gives you no way to prove you are innocent.
A decision is made with evidence you can't see or respond to and these closed courts have a judge and jury of 1 person that has to get through 100's of cases quickly. Now on more than one occasion I have asked a riot employee what evidence I could supply to prove I was innocent, each time it has been ignored. You can't tell me that such a system is going to mean that I have any chance of getting a fair "Trial". In real life the only people who have a justice system like this are Dictators. The only evidence allowed is gathered by the prosecutor and you have no way of knowing how to prove you are innocent. Dictators who wish to get rid of people and not have their judgments questioned are probably not the best people to model your "Justice System" after.

In my case the first response I got to a request for appeal was just a cut and paste reply which is a nice feeling when you have had to wait a day for any response.

Now I realise that almost everyone reading this is going to say that if I was detected as scripting / hacking I must be doing it. Hate to ruin your day but that isn't the case and what ever triggered the "Detection" system to ban my account can also happen to you. So enjoy that knowing that you could have your account perm banned without any fair way of getting it back.

I have had more than just one person say that the ONLY chance i have to get my account unbanned is to make enough of "riot" in the forums to get someone to look at it and deal with it personally. How is this even remotely fair on anyone?

18 Comments

IDecIaraThumbWarSep 21, 20163 votes

Maybe Riot detected a third-party program that had nothing to do with League and interpreted it as a cheating tool? If neither you or Riot is lying, then this is a possibility.

Of course, if one of you were lying, it would most likely be you and not Riot...

TinlegsSep 21, 20162 votes

I think that is exactly what happening and to that point that is exactly what I would like to prove. Getting Riot to do this with me though seems like an impossible task with the way that they have set up the banning system.

IDecIaraThumbWarSep 21, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I think that is exactly what happening and to that point that is exactly what I would like to prove. Getting Riot to do this with me though seems like an impossible task with the way that they have set up the banning system.

In either case sorry for your loss. Hope you can get your account back.

TinlegsSep 21, 20162 votes

Thanks for that. By reading and up voting this post you are helping so I greatly appreciated that. Never know I might get someone from Riot who s interesting in resolving this issue to look at.

Kei143Sep 21, 20163 votes

well.. this ban is valid if:

you programmed a keyboard / mouse to press * 2 or more buttons quickly
you used MKLOL
you scripted
You used anything from ELOBuddy.com
you logged in from a computer that had illegal 3rd party programs in it
you used custom lol client that gave you unfair game advantage (even if you didn't know those advantages existed)
you let someone use your account, and they scripted on it
you botted to level up
you purchased an account

the list goes on.

TinlegsSep 21, 20161 votes

Thank you for that information and everything in your list there I have not done. This is the reason why I am making a fuss about this. I know my account hasn't been hacked and I know the details of the software installed on my system. It is simple, I don't hack / script in any game let alone in LOL. So I know that it is a false detection from some other program that does not give an advantage / script. I have had a few people mention that Discord which is a chat program I use maybe causing accounts to be banned because of their "Overlay" feature. There is no way for me to know if this is the case or not unless riot works with me.

lolptwoSep 21, 20162 votes

The fact is riot goes out of their way to ensure that their anti-cheat targets very specific things. If your account was banned by this, its because you used something they do not want you to use. Open a ticket if you wish, but I am nearly positive you will hear the same type of response.

TinlegsSep 21, 20161 votes

You are welcome to think I have used malicious software scripts or any other software to cheat. Thing is I know I haven't whether it be by accident or on purpose. As for the ticket I have already opened one and all I have received is cut and paste messages and a refusal to allow me to defend myself or prove my innocence.

This above anything is my point. They have accused me of doing something I haven't done and not provided any method of proving my innocence. You only have to look at cases like this one

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/cETPvHAE-black-alistar-king-rammus

where the person was innocent and it was by a miracle that a Riot employee was smart enough to work out that the incorrectly banned account had a similar name as someone who was meant to be banned. They too went through the ticket system and received the same poor service as I am seeing now with my case.

Now working in IT for over 15 years I understand how programs work and there is no way you can make a detection system work 100%. You are always going to get unintended false positives, so no matter how specific they have targeted their anti cheat they are always going to collect innocent people.

So do you think it is fair for someone who hasn't cheated to have their 5 year account banned without a way of proving that they are innocent?

lolptwoSep 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You are welcome to think I have used malicious software scripts or any other software to cheat. Thing is I know I haven't whether it be by accident or on purpose. As for the ticket I have already opened one and all I have received is cut and paste messages and a refusal to allow me to defend myself or prove my innocence.

This above anything is my point. They have accused me of doing something I haven't done and not provided any method of proving my innocence. You only have to look at cases like this one

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/cETPvHAE-black-alistar-king-rammus

where the person was innocent and it was by a miracle that a Riot employee was smart enough to work out that the incorrectly banned account had a similar name as someone who was meant to be banned. They too went through the ticket system and received the same poor service as I am seeing now with my case.

Now working in IT for over 15 years I understand how programs work and there is no way you can make a detection system work 100%. You are always going to get unintended false positives, so no matter how specific they have targeted their anti cheat they are always going to collect innocent people.

So do you think it is fair for someone who hasn't cheated to have their 5 year account banned without a way of proving that they are innocent?

Your link does not apply at all in your case. Find me a single example of riots anti-cheat software banning innocent people. You must not work in IT, because there are many ways to ensure your detection is a 100% positive rate. One strategy is to detect a practice you do not condone, for example, lets say skin hacking. If you target users using skin hacks, only users who are actually using skin hacks can be flagged.. this means that there is no false positive. There is no legitimate program that could set that off, because by nature, if a skin hack occurs, the program is not legitimate or at least not condoned by riot.

TinlegsSep 22, 20161 votes

Firstly there is no way of knowing if the above example applies in my case or not because Riot won't provide any details on WHY I was banned in the first place. Secondly Riot doesn't publish details of people who were banned and then unbanned cause they made a mistake. In scientific terms your statement is a Argument from ignorance . It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proved false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that: there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four.

As for working in IT, I have no interest in beating my chest and demanding you accept that I have had a long career in IT. As for your skin hacking theory it is faulty in the basic premise. You can't say well only users who are using skin hacks are detected because you haven't even thought about how they are detected, when you boil it all down it just comes down to 1's and 0's and you have to write a program that matches those patterns of 1's and 0's and there can be many instances where you get unintended pattern matches.

When it comes down to it really doesn't matter what your thoughts are on my situation, I just hope you don't have to face the same situation as I do cause I know your position will change 100% in a heart beat when you experience an unjust banning.

lolptwoSep 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Firstly there is no way of knowing if the above example applies in my case or not because Riot won't provide any details on WHY I was banned in the first place. Secondly Riot doesn't publish details of people who were banned and then unbanned cause they made a mistake. In scientific terms your statement is a Argument from ignorance . It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proved false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that: there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four.

As for working in IT, I have no interest in beating my chest and demanding you accept that I have had a long career in IT. As for your skin hacking theory it is faulty in the basic premise. You can't say well only users who are using skin hacks are detected because you haven't even thought about how they are detected, when you boil it all down it just comes down to 1's and 0's and you have to write a program that matches those patterns of 1's and 0's and there can be many instances where you get unintended pattern matches.

When it comes down to it really doesn't matter what your thoughts are on my situation, I just hope you don't have to face the same situation as I do cause I know your position will change 100% in a heart beat when you experience an unjust banning.

"even thought about how they are detected, when you boil it all down it just comes down to 1's and 0's and you have to write a program that matches those patterns of 1's and 0's and there can be many instances where you get unintended pattern matches."

You are further proving my point that your "IT experience" is not relevant here, no offense. You think the only way you can detect something is by a signature scan? Detecting unwanted programs is not an exact science. Just for examples sake, lets say you wanted to detect people calling a game function through their cheat.

They might place a hidden hook on that function call inside the client which is activated in response to a packet being sent, and check the call stack for calls outside the expected result. This is just one of many things done by other games that simply does not return false positives.. if you're calling their games API from a place you should not be ,there is no false positive, you simply are doing something they do not want you to do.

TinlegsSep 28, 20161 votes

I am going to just do you a favour here. I gather if you understand what hooks are then you understand what anti virus programs are and how they "detect" a virus. Please just do a google search on " hooks in programming getting false positives " and take some time to read the pages there you might learn something.

KaiokoSep 21, 20162 votes

The on topic part: Riot has previously unbanned certain accounts due to them erroneously banning users for third party software. Fact of the matter is, the use of third party software to gain an advantage is very prevalent in League and an issue that needs to be resolved. I just hope you did not share your account with someone who did use such software otherwise you would be on the hook as well.

The off topic part: As someone holding a law degree and having passed the BAR it bugs me that you refer to your punishment and "trial" like it should somehow work like an actual civil trial. You are using Riot's intellectual property and as such they have the right to limit your access to their intellectual property as they see fit especially because you do not pay a monthly membership. Any purchases made through their store is made with the agreement that they do not owe you anything should they terminate your account for any reason. Furthermore, you agree to this upon downloading the game and every time a patch occurs.

The law is definitely not on your side on this one.

TinlegsSep 21, 20161 votes

Kaioko you are correct that use of scripts and 3rd party software is very is prevalent in League and I agree with measures to stop people from using such software. What I have issue with is that I have limited to no recourse in getting my account back for an issue where I haven't broken the T & C's etc. As for your last statement I have never loaned my account out to anyone and this is why I am so certain as to what has happened or not on my account. I have had this account for 5 years and I have friends in plat and challenger who have offered to "boost" my account. I have turned them all down cause I know I wouldn't get any sense of achievement if I didn't do it myself.

As to your off topic statement, whilst I have studied the basics of law in University I am not a lawyer nor passed the BAR so I will bow to your legal knowledge here. That being said just because the law is set out one way doesn't necessarily mean it is just or fair. I am a person with no power having something that I enjoy being taken away from me for something I didn't do with little or no avenue to get it back. How is that even close to being fair ? Just because you have the legal right to do something doesn't necessarily mean that such actions are fair and hence my title " Automatic Assumption of Guilt and No Justice for Innocent People "

On my part when I play the game and purchase items their is an implied assumption that there will be fairness in the dealings that I have with Riot and visa versa. Now according to my own judgement I have kept my side of the agreement. What this is worth legally is nothing yet personally it means a lot.

MagicFlyingLlamaSep 21, 20161 votes

Lots of people complaining about this lately. I think it is a windows 10 related issue, from most of the posts. Another reason to not use shit OSes. Riot will probably change their policy.

TinlegsSep 21, 20161 votes

Well in my case I am using Win 7 64 Bit so it may not only be a windows 10 related issue. I would be willing to have someone from Riot remotely access my system whilst I am playing a game so that they can check my processes whilst their "Detection System" still triggers. That way I can prove that it wasn't scripting that cause the trigger. There is no point for me trying to prove that I don't have scripts / hacks on my system because the simple answer to that will be that I uninstalled them.

TinlegsSep 25, 20161 votes

Well it looks like I am not the only one with this problem.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/Yoni8xoR-this-could-be-you-nextplease-read

looks almost exactly what I am experiencing. Kinda brings some doubt to the riot detection system is 100% accurate claim that you always get when ever you see one of these types of posts.