What's this weird thing people have against targeted abilities all of a sudden?

JedenVojak·Feb 16, 2015·2 votes·578 views

Undodgeable, uninterceptable ranged spells doing damage you can't avoid seem to be a large complaint with people these days, yet there's an entire class (marksman) built around that function, and optimizing the damage of those attacks. Their entire class is based on point and click damage, which doesn't have a cooldown, and doesn't cost mana, yet no one seems to have a problem with the way those work...

Why then all this recent hate for spells that are targeted? I'm not picking a fight, and I don't have a problem with ranged auto attacks working the way they are... I just honestly don't understand.

11 Comments

JubbinautFeb 16, 20153 votes

At a guess? The huge differences in either damage or utility. Consider: The base damage of Annie's Q (as a pure damage spell) at rank 5 is 220 (plus scaling). The highest base AD in the game is only 132.6, and it's shared by Cho'Gath and Skarner (both melee champs) - the highest base AD on a ranged champion is Urgot's at 113.2. Add to that that AP items tend to have higher numbers (120 for rabcap vs 80 for BT), and we see that targeted spells tend to be significantly more powerful.

Additionally, there's very few targeted spells that don't have some kind of additional utility built into them. Taking Annie's Q again - if her passive is up, it's an inescapable stun for almost 2 seconds in addition to being more damage than any single basic attack.

That said, I personally believe there's space for them, and there's very few that I take any real issue with.

disregardableFeb 16, 20151 votes

Because, in general, those untargetable spells can either 100-0 you Veigar or happen from so obscene a range that you can do NOTHING to stop it Zilean . Neither of those things are true for AAs. Even in the late game, you need 3-4 autos.

Matthias9119Feb 16, 20151 votes

Their entire class is based on point and click damage, which doesn't have a cooldown, and doesn't cost mana, yet no one seems to have a problem with the way those work...

There's a big difference between someone chipping away at you with AAs and Veigar going E->W->Q->R and 100-0ing you while you're stunned (see also: Ahri last season doing the same with the combined damage amps on Charm and DFG). If that first ability lands you are eating the whole combo with no retaliation possible. At least with someone like Zed or LB you have a chance to stun them, exhaust them, dash or flash away, use Zhonya's, etc.

Most AA-based carries also don't have the ability to lock you down, or if they do (e.g. Ashe or Varus) they don't have as much damage/steroids in their kit. Or their kit is ALL damage and they don't have much else (e.g. Kog'maw or Draven).

JedenVojakFeb 16, 20152 votes

{quoted}

There's a big difference between someone chipping away at you with AAs and Veigar going E->W->Q->R and 100-0ing you while you're stunned (see also: Ahri last season doing the same with the combined damage amps on Charm and DFG). If that first ability lands you are eating the whole combo with no retaliation possible. At least with someone like Zed or LB you have a chance to stun them, exhaust them, dash or flash away, use Zhonya's, etc.

Most AA-based carries also don't have the ability to lock you down, or if they do (e.g. Ashe or Varus) they don't have as much damage/steroids in their kit. Or their kit is ALL damage and they don't have much else (e.g. Kog'maw or Draven).

The list of adcs who can cc lock you is actually Ashe, Jinx, Varus, Vayne, and Urgot, although the latter is more of a ranged tank than an adc.

Also I don't think you can really say it's just "chipping away" - certainly early game it may feel like that, but when and ADC is sporting a item 3035 item 3046 and item 3031 (and I don't know how adcs even use those swords anyhow...), that is not chipping, that's more like drilling. A hole. Through your skull.

Also, Vayne can roll dodge you, turn invisible, slam you into a wall, and chew threw all your defenses.

...Vayne is awesome.

I do understand getting annoyed at getting cc locked and instabursted, but I've seen people complain about things like Kassadin's Q or Sona's Q of all things, and those only do damage to you.

Matthias9119Feb 16, 20151 votes

Also I don't think you can really say it's just "chipping away" - certainly early game it may feel like that, but when and ADC is sporting a and (and I don't know how adcs even use those swords anyhow...), that is not chipping, that's more like drilling. A hole. Through your skull.

Just about anybody with 3+ damage items is going to do a lot of damage. But generally a "marksman" can't stunlock you 100-0 with no chance of retaliation or escape. A fed Ashe or Varus might be able to, but they have to land a skillshot ult. (And I guess Urgot if he catches you in a bad position, if you consider him an ADC.)

Also, Vayne can roll dodge you, turn invisible, slam you into a wall, and chew threw all your defenses. ...Vayne is awesome.

Vayne's only CC is situational, as you have to get into a position where she can pin you against a wall. It's also easy to accidentally save an enemy by knocking them away from you. Of course a good Vayne will try to bait you into the stun, but there's some counterplay there beyond "don't get within X units of the champ". She's a ridiculous duelist for sure, but she also has short range and is bad at running away.

I do understand getting annoyed at getting cc locked and instabursted, but I've seen people complain about things like Kassadin's Q or Sona's Q of all things, and those only do damage to you.

Back when Kass' Q did way more damage AND silenced, it was pretty nasty. Sona actually does ridiculous damage with a Q->AA->Power Chord, and throwing a Lich Bane in there makes it even stronger. But she's also incredibly squishy and a lot of champs outrange her.

JubbinautFeb 16, 20152 votes

An ADC - let's say Jinx - with those items would do about 224 (104 + 80 + 40) damage every 1.0438 (0.625 + 0.4188) seconds. They would have spent 8900 (2300 + 2800 + 3800) gold to do so.

An APC - let's go back to Annie - with equivalent gold/items ( item 3135 item 3089 item 3165 item 1026 at a cost of 8755 [2295+3300+2300+860]) would do 542.40 (220 base + 322.4 [403 * 0.8]) every 3.2 seconds.

Caveats:

I didn't add in math for Jinx's crits because I have other things to do tonight than math. I may also have screwed up her AS calculation - if I did, please feel free to tell me what (and why) it should be and I'll correct it.
I'm only accounting for one spell from Annie, rather than her entire rotation. I also didn't add in the "also stuns every 4th cast" aspect - the added utility that autos don't get.

What we see, though, is that in comparison, ADCs chip health away while those targeted nukes tend to either do far more damage or have actual utility (to set up for more damage).

JedenVojakFeb 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

An ADC - let's say Jinx - with those items would do about 224 (104 + 80 + 40) damage every 1.0438 (0.625 + 0.4188) seconds. They would have spent 8900 (2300 + 2800 + 3800) gold to do so.

An APC - let's go back to Annie - with equivalent gold/items ( at a cost of 8755 [2295+3300+2300+860]) would do 542.40 (220 base + 322.4 [403 * 0.8]) every 3.2 seconds.

Caveats:

I didn't add in math for Jinx's crits because I have other things to do tonight than math. I may also have screwed up her AS calculation - if I did, please feel free to tell me what (and why) it should be and I'll correct it.

I'm only accounting for one spell from Annie, rather than her entire rotation. I also didn't add in the "also stuns every 4th cast" aspect - the added utility that autos don't get.

What we see, though, is that in comparison, ADCs chip health away while those targeted nukes tend to either do far more damage or have actual utility (to set up for more damage).

Even by your estimations alone, Jinx is doing more damage in the same amount of time it takes for Annie to go between casts of her fire shot thingy - plus, Jinx has a 55% chance to crit for +150% more damage, meaning roughly half the time, she's going to poke for 560 damage, at longer range than Annie if she's using her rockets, and in an AOE - pretty significant poke I would say, although that does come at the cost of mana.

JubbinautFeb 16, 20151 votes

All of that is true - but only accounts for one spell from Annie (which isn't her strongest), and completely ignores the utility of the targeted (and therefore unavoidable) stun.

The point is this: If Jinx hits you with auto-attacks you can respond to that (move away, dive in and counter-attack, something). If Annie hits you with her Q at the right time, there's not much of anything you can do to stop her from straight-up killing you except hope and pray that she doesn't have enough items to fully burst you yet. As a note: I chose Annie and her Q because I feel it covers both aspects... it's solid damage, and consistent utility CC. There are better examples of each.

But you bring up the distinction quite clearly, so thanks. The difference is a matter of burst/utility (for targeted spells) or damage over time (for autos). Targeted spells do more stuff than AAs. And adding more stuff to something that can't be avoided (so has little to no counterplay or interaction) can suck.

Hello I am BirdFeb 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

There's a big difference between someone chipping away at you with AAs and Veigar going E->W->Q->R and 100-0ing you while you're stunned (see also: Ahri last season doing the same with the combined damage amps on Charm and DFG). If that first ability lands you are eating the whole combo with no retaliation possible. At least with someone like Zed or LB you have a chance to stun them, exhaust them, dash or flash away, use Zhonya's, etc.

Most AA-based carries also don't have the ability to lock you down, or if they do (e.g. Ashe or Varus) they don't have as much damage/steroids in their kit. Or their kit is ALL damage and they don't have much else (e.g. Kog'maw or Draven).

Draven has a knock... To the side? I dunno

Also, Kalista

Matthias9119Feb 16, 20151 votes

Forgot that Draven's E applies a slow. It's a short slow on a long cooldown. He also has a speed boost, although if he spams it he'll go OOM rapidly.

And, yeah, Kalista can slow on top of her pretty good mobility (at least when she's within range to AA you).

Still, they have to be super fed to kill you during a 2-second slow, and those don't stop you from using Flash or other movement abilities to get away, or from fighting back.