Boards›Gameplay

I could be wrong, but to me the Ryze changes seem like a huge nerf

JedenVojak··34 votes·5,037 views

Passive - no longer always on, activation tied to spell cast charges, now provides a shield, cooldown redux per spell cast tied to Q cooldown Verdect: Looks like a nerf. Why? _ a) It's not always on, meaning that you will have times where you do not have a passive_ _ b) The cooldown reduction on spell cast is tied to your Q cooldown, meaning that if you get cooldown reduction (which you WILL GET due to your ult passive) the benefit you gain from your passive remains the same, relative to your abilities - i.e. the same number of spell casts get you the same amount of cooldown reduction regardless of how much CDR you have._ Q - Flat damage increased, Mana scaling reduced, Ap scaling increased, cooldown increased (not enough to matter though), now a skillshot, cooldown reduction passive moved Verdict: Massive nerf . Why? _ It's a skillshot, which means it can miss, and can't hit someone behind minions, which is bad. Why does every mage need to have a skillshot?_ W - Flat damage reduced, Cooldown increased, ap ratio reduced, mana scaling reduced, duration higher at first level but lower at max level Verdict: Nerf. They just really don't like reliable CC abilities in this game I guess. E - Cooldown halfed, flat damage reduced, ap scaling reduced, guarenteed second bounce, but that second bounce damage is about half of the initial hit damage. **Verdict: ???? **- This is a very weird change that's hard to quantify; due to the semi random nature of the ball, the floor of the updated ability is higher but the ceiling is lower - This is a Gankplank ult style change which is hard to rate. I would say, if you were regularly getting one hit off of this ability, its a buff, but if you were getting 2 or 3 hits (on one guy) consistantly, than it's a nerf. R - Cooldown passive here, which goes up to 30%, duration reduced, cooldown reduced Verdict: Nerf. Why? 30% Cooldown reduction provided as a passive when core items already provide cooldown reduction, means that cooldown reduction on core items is a wasted stat. A 10 second less cooldown on ult does not make up for a 1 second less duration on ult - his ult is worse with no meaningful compensation.

Overall Thoughts: Ryze got his mana scalings across the board lowered, and had extra cooldown added into his kit, and while the ap scaling of one of his abilities (his Q) has gone up, the ap scalings for his other abilities were reduced, perhaps to emphasize his "windowed moment of power" moment especially with the cooldown reduction on E. Given from the changes they've made to him (lowering mana ratios and giving him a higher flat cooldown) they don't like Ryze building, or don't want Ryze to build these: item 3110 item 3025 and want him to bulid more magey items - but Ryze still has super high mana costs (100 mana on W and E) combined with that cooldown reduction on the E, I don't know how sustainable that really is. Also, without the armor from those items, I feel like he might not be tanky enough in the later game when he has to move into range to use said abilities.

Perhaps the intention is to make Ryze a champion that sort of function in cycles so that you just spam Q's until you're "powered up" then go to town, then drop back to useless mode for a while so you spam more Qs. In other words, Ryze is now being made into a skillshot spamming mage, which we've certainly never seen before.

**EDIT: **It has been pointed out to me that I appear to have misread Ryzes updated Spell Flux - rather than hitting the initial target once and bouncing around before hitting him one last time, it would appear that after hitting the initial target, it bounces out to a number of secondary targets simultaneously, and back to the initial target for half the initial hit damage each. As such, it looks like Spell Flux actually got a pretty nice buff, rather than a nerf.

114 Comments

Saianna32 votes

They should make delay on Ryze rune prison to compensate for no DFG. That should make him balanced.

JedenVojak6 votes

But, Ryze didn't build DFG as far as I know.

Also why would adding a delay to rune prison be a compensation? That doesn't even make sense.

Sightless6627 votes

It's a joke about the Veigar rework. The timing of Veigar's rework was meant to compensate him for the removal of DFG, but the delay they added to his E made him one of the worst champions in the game.

The Soulforged2 votes

That wasn't a rework. It was literally a rework to 1 ability, which in many cases was worse than before, and they nerfed everything...

junglerboy167 votes

and a change to his Q, and a change to his R, and a change to his W, and a... You see the pattern?

The Soulforged4 votes

A rework is something that changes the mechanics of the abilities. His q change was a rework. His w change was a buff because all that was tweaked was numbers, but he cannot land it. His r change was a numbers change nerf which literally did nothing but lower numbers.

junglerboy162 votes

E was entirely reworked actually, it doesn't bounce between enemies anymore, but instead sends out secondary bolts to enemyies surrounding the primary target, before bouncing back to the primary target dealing reduced damage a second time.

R wasn't nerfed at all, in fact the only change they gave it was a lower CD and passive CDR on ranking it up.

The Soulforged3 votes

O I was talking about Veigar xD Edit: was replying to the guy explaining joke about Veigar rework GG chronological order with discussion format as well :/

Sire Hippington6 votes

while it definitly is a nerf with the current numbers on pbe, but your still quite wrong on manny points. The passive-mode grants far more reduction than his current, allowing for an infinte combo for the duration of that passiveboost regardless of how much cdr you've got. If it weren't for the 0.25sec forced delay that is, makes that whole thing hella clunky.

Q definitly is worse W due to the higher cdr-reduce in passive mode, the higher base cdr is ptretty relative, and it'S still a instant point n click hard-cc and therefull very powerfull even if it wouldn't deal any damage at all E got alot aoe-potential and the up to 36% mr shred is massive, but it sucks now vs isolated targets Ult got an even higher uptime than currently, it's basically up in every passive-boost lategame. The cdr isn't that usefull as u easily get cdr from items, but it certainly doesn't hurt.

JedenVojak2 votes

The passive mode will give him more cooldown reduction per spell cast while its up, but it's not up all the time, which means that while his passive isn't up he has zero cooldown reduction from casting spells, and the duration of it is very short until about 11th level.

Basically I don't really like how his passive turns on and off. I think the current always on 1 second reduction per cast is better, but ymmv

junglerboy164 votes

I agree about the passive overall being a nerf, along with the whole of this rework. The key thing to remember here is that these nerfs aren't just number tweaks, but mechanical changes that allow Riot to buff him in healthy ways in the future. The passive isn't always on anymore, but now they can tweak how much it gives him in those short windows. Q is a skillshot now, yes that is a nerf, but it means they can mess around with the damage it deals, the cooldown it has, the range, width, etc. W is a flat nerf, E feels like a flat nerf, mainly because it deals a lot less damage in a 1v1 than before (they need to increase the secondary range by at least 50% for it to be useful really, and they already buffed the number of secondary targets it hits today). R Having CDR actually increases his build diversity allowing him to build something other than frozen heart third item every match, now he can go for a Lich bane, or a void staff, or something else instead, which is a much bigger boon than the fact that FH becomes overkill after level 16.

This is all about changing Ryze's balance levers so that Riot has more to work with. Before these changes go through, Ryze's balance levers are:

  • Passive: amount of CDR given on casts.
  • Q: base damage, AP Ratio, Mana Ratio, cooldown, CDR given, range.
  • W: base damage, AP Ratio, Mana Ratio, cooldown, root duration, range.
  • E: base damage, AP Ratio, Mana Ratio, cooldown, number of bounces, range of bounces, MR shredded, duration of shred.
  • R: cooldown, spell vamp, move speed, duration, AoE range, AoE damage ratio.

Now, Ryze will have at least these levers:

  • Passive: number of stacks before activation, duration of stacks before resetting, CDR given by cast during activation, mana shield base amount, mana shield ratio, minimum cooldown of spells during activation.
  • Q: base damage, AP Ratio, Mana Ratio, cooldown, range, projectile width, projectile speed.
  • W: base damage, AP Ratio, Mana Ratio, cooldown, range, root duration.
  • E: base damage, AP Ratio, Mana Ratio, cooldown, range, max number of secondary targets, range of secondary bounces, MR shredded, duration of shred, damage of secondary bounce, damage of return bounce.
  • R: CDR given, cooldown, spell vamp, move speed, duration, AoE range, AoE damage ratio.

Now, I'm probably missing a few from both lists, but it is undeniable that the new Ryze has many more tuning levers than current Ryze, and that means they can give him more power without immediately making him pick or ban, or if necessary take away some power without making him absolutely useless again.

JedenVojak3 votes

Thing is, we already have a bunch of super complicated skillshot based mages with 8-bajillion tuning levers; Ryze doesn't need to be this way.

As a champion, Ryze is like a revolver - he works. Now they're making him into a champion that doesn't work. He has shenanigans now, there's all sorts of moving parts being added there now.

Q doesn't hit anymore, it "shoots", his passive doesn't work any more, it "builds up", E is weirdly "less bouncy" when you can isolate people, his ult doesn't last as long for "reasons".

I will agree with you that the changes add more levers to Ryze to balance him and buff or nerf him, but the question to be asked is, "Does this make him a better champion?"

junglerboy163 votes

the whole point is that when you have a champion that is too reliable (Ryze did always work) he is either way too strong, or not strong enough to be viable. Having these little bits of unreliability mean that he finally won't be either totally over the top or completely bleh anymore.

I would say overall, this does make Ryze a better champion. He will be more fun to use, more fun to play against, and they will be able to finally make him strong without making him completely beyond reasonable strength, because no matter how fun his current kit is, having it either be so weak that you are pretty much useless or be so strong that it is banned all the time and you can't play it negates that fun-ness quite thoroughly.

JedenVojak2 votes

Funny, I don't believe a champion can be too reliable - that's literally the best thing a champion can be. The issue with competative is that the types of champions they like to use/are successful with tend to be very mobile bursty champions or champs who can generate picks (granted, this is going from the LCS I watched last year, haven't watched any LCS at all this season) and Ryze shuts those types of champions down hard. And even then, I still saw losing games with Ryze because even though he's reliable, he's very weak early game: he basically is a magicarp champion.

We will have to agree to disagree on the fun part. I absolutely hate skillshots with a passion - I spent the mana, I put the ability on cooldown, and it doesn't have any CC whatsoever only damage, it should WORK. But on top of those things, the enemy can just stand behind some minions, or use some dash or displacement to negate my ability? That's not even remotely fun.

As for the banned problem, that would be easily solved by eliminating bans from ranked matches. In fact, I think that would be a good idea just for general play, as people would be forced to play against those "OP" champs and learn how to fight them and develop counters, rather than Riot needing to step in with knee-jerk nerfs because people are getting destroyed and haven't developed a counter strategy yet.

junglerboy161 votes

You know, that is a fair assessment about how since it is really just a nuke it shouldn't have to be unreliable, however, I think the whole point is that now it requires a bit more focus from the Ryze, while also allowing options for higher success when played really well and healthier optimal use cases (basically, it adds in variability to the game, which means that you put in just as much resource on average to get just as much out of it total, but moment to moment it creates a more dynamic environment than "hover mouse over X until all spells blow it up"). Because of this, they can give it higher damage and a lower mana cost, or a slew of other unique effects that enhance the feel of his gameplay. Also, I mean sometimes you don't want to hit them with the skillshot, odd as that sounds, because you want them to have to walk a certain direction, or you want them to have to step in the way and tank the damage rather than letting you CS with it, etc. I agree that tons of skill shots aren't fun, but having at least one of them can add a bit of flavor to an otherwise vanilla champion kit. Ryze is a cool concept, and being able to spam spells all the time like a madman can be fun, but it doesn't seem like it is as satisfying as being able to spam spells sometimes, while knowing that you were able to outwit your opponent.

Additionally, skill shots allow you to do more things than a point and click, like leading a champion who is out of range by firing your spell sooner than otherwise possible and seeing them unfortunately walk into it, or being able to scout brush, or being able to still kill someone after you lost sight of them by firing a blind shot after them when you normally would lose the kill because you couldn't target them anymore.

Just for an example, look at Lux's light binding; since it is a skillshot, she is allowed to use it at extreme range and have it hit two targets. That's cool, that's different. Ryze has a short range targeted nuke, and that is all it can be at this point, because being able to reliably get a 2 person snare at 1200+ range would be totally unfair as a point and click. Does Ryze need that extra long range snare like Lux? Probably not, but the point still stands that by changing it to a skillshot, Riot now has more room to make his Q that much more unique. Maybe they give it some effect where casting Q causes the damage to amp up for following casts within the next few seconds, or maybe they make it so that killing a unit with it restores mana to Ryze, or anything. Not that those particular ideas are great or should be a part of his kit, but they just prove my point that skill shots let Riot make the champion cooler than they were before. As it stands now, leaving Q as just another nuke in his kit doesn't justify turning it into a skillshot, but it gives them the option of amplifying its uniqueness beyond shoot damage at X.

Basically, skill shots and point and click abilities each have their own tradeoffs, and in a situation where a kit is all skill shots, throwing in a point and click for some reliability can be good to make it more balanced across all levels of play, and in a kit that is all point and click, throwing in some variability can also be good at keeping things interesting while opening up opportunities for some really unique adjustments that would otherwise leave the champion completely and utterly broken.

Thanks for the discussion, I hope I was able to add something of use to it :P

JedenVojak2 votes

{quoted}

Thanks for the discussion, I hope I was able to add something of use to it :P

You know, I like you, because you take the time and text to properly explain your points.

What you say about skillshots has some merit in the sense of their zoning potential - you can use them to move them into your other abilities, like Lux using the snare to force them to run into her singularity where they're slowed for her hyper beam. And that's a fun, sort of stratigic way to use her abilities.

But Lux is a champion who is designed around high-impact low reliability abilities - it's fine if I don't hit you with my snare since you and all your friends take my giant beam to the face.

That's not Ryze though. His other abilities are all on clicks, and he has a short range on them - Q is his primary offensive ability. He attacks with that the way Tryndamere hits with his sword; but now his Q doesn't work anymore: the high end case you talk about is basically he hits with all his Qs, and then he's only doing as much damage as he was before the change. Changing his Q into a skillshot doesn't make any sense given the nature of that spell and the rest of his kit; After all, whats the point of firing one Q every .3 seconds if they all whiff?

If I was going to "balance" his Q, I would lower the damage on initial hit, but give it a ramp up with multiple successive casts on the same opponent, to reinforce the idea that he's drilling down on one guy; he's not a "burst mage" hes a "spammy-fight mage".

Lux already exists, Xerath already exists, Ziggs already exists, etc. These high zoning AOE high impact strategic play champions all already exist - there is no reason to turn Ryze into a cheap knockoff version of them. Even if you wanted to make one of his abilities a skillshot, it makes no sense for that ability to be his Q.

Hard4Hamsters1 votes

What made Ryze so strong in season 4 was that he could bully out many toplaners with a point and click nuke. Stay safe and farm up and then have one of the strongest lategames due to his ability to output AOE dps. Only after the nerfs to his Q would I consider him a Magikarp early game. Before the nerfs he could hit you with 80 (60 base + scaling) damage every 2 seconds at level 1. Junglers had to shut Ryze down before he could complete RoA or he would be a huge problem. Even without kills, Ryze can generate enough income to complete his core build before anyone else. He was only somewhat weak in the midgame teamfights when he was stacking mana and before he finished his RoA, Archangels, FH combo.

He was way too reliable as a pick for this reason. Champions shouldn't be overly reliable and strong at the same time. This change allows Ryze to be strong because they take away some of the reliability. He now has power windows to work into his laning, he actually has wave clear without using his ult, he can build his Tear much faster than before BECAUSE his Q is a skillshot, and he has more options in his build path (doesn't have to build FH for the CDR). I think this gives Ryze the option to become a stronger champion than he was before. He still has a point and click root and his E is much more reliable and will do MORE damage if the target is near his minions if you're worried about hitting a target in a crowd of minions with his Q. Just use your E instead (still point and click).

My first champion I picked up was Ryze. I loved the tanky close range mage idea, but I eventually started to get bored with him. He was strong and I could win with him, but I would rather play Gragas or Sion (post rework) because of how much more there was to do with their kits. I can work to master a champion like Grag or Sion by improving on my ability to make choices with their abilities, enhance my accuracy with their skill shots, and incorporate different items into their build. The biggest choice you had as a Ryze was "should I Q then go for my W or should I just W first to make sure I lock them down and then use my other abilities. You master the mechanical aspects of Ryze very quickly, and his build doesn't change subbing possibly one item.

I understand the need for mechanically simple champions for new players, but one skillshot isn't going to overcomplicate things for a new player. Yes, it will be harder to hit, but the kit is fairly simple. The passive isn't overly complicated; any new player will understand that if you spam your abilities, you will get a short powerspike. But as they keep playing the champion, they can learn to hold off on abilities to maximize the use of their passive when they are ready. They will also learn about skillshots, targeted abilities, and self targeted buffs all in one champion. I think he will still be a great starter champion, but he will be less reliable in both higher and lower tiers of play which will allow him to become a strong pick, without being overpowered.

JedenVojak2 votes

The problems of his early game being too powerful could have been addressed by having a portion of his damage locked off by levels of his ultimate, or even through his passive in some way, if he's not enough of a magikarp early while still preserving his late game powerhouse playstyle.

See, I think the thing people are missing is it's not like just "oh they're just adding a skillshot to his kit" - q is literally his primary offensive ability, it's what he attacks with. The difference between "will hit" and "can hit" is huge, and I think a lot of people are underestimating it.

This isn't about having a champion that's mechanically simple for new players or a starter champion; this is about having a champion that's mechanically simple and effective at all stages of play, while having reliable damage output. It's not that making Q a skillshot is overwhelmingly difficult to comprehend, rather that it completely ruins his damage output, since his spells will no longer hit. Even if someone hits 3 out of every 4 Qs, that's a flat 25% reduction to his overall damage from Q. On top of the fact that he has to... well aim it, he will most likely not be able to fire it off of cooldown like the old Q. There is no way to look at this other than being a substantial damage nerf.

On the part of CDR opening up his build path, I will concede that this may not be a bad thing. Being locked into 3 primary items is somewhat rough, and if the CDR change can do this without significantly changing his damage output, that's probably more interesting overall.

Phoenix Kotori 2 votes

Basically I don't really like how his passive turns on and off. I think the current always on 1 second reduction per cast is better, but ymmv

It's also cancer that forces ryzes to be nerfed when he becomes viable because it makes him overbearing in lane if he's even a little a strong.

Crett5 votes

Actually, I tried it in PBE. The new passive is way stronger than the old one, but only for a few seconds. I was nearly able to chain rune prison. Nearly. Riot said that if Ryze needed it, they're tuning him up.

Sightless666 votes

Riot said that if Ryze needed it, they're tuning him up.

Riot says many things about buffing champions. Still can take them forever to get around to it.

Abyssphere3 votes

{quoted}

Riot says many things about buffing champions. Still can take them forever to get around to it.

They've buffed most of the champions they've recently made changes to very quickly after those changes. Zilean and Veigar needed buffs and they got them. Only Mordekaiser has been left untouched.

Loken Stoneheart3 votes

{quoted}

They've buffed most of the champions they've recently made changes to very quickly after those changes. Zilean and Veigar needed buffs and they got them. Only Mordekaiser has been left untouched.

They made no meaningful buffs to either of those champions. Both are still unviable, in-fact less viable than they were before.

Sightless663 votes

Zilean and Veigar needed buffs and they got them

And they're both still bad, because the buffs have been so cautious. Buffing the champions in a way that doesn't leave them terrible takes absolutely forever. It's been a while since their reworks, and they still have a while before they're actually decent champions. Not satisfactory.

Beoridas4 votes

honestly i dont like this all counterplay religion hyperbole. IT shouldnt be like making every champ like ezreal. does his mouvement speed, aa , skin color has counter play? OMG NO? NERF NERF NERF. like honestly its tad ridiculous. ryze had weaknesses and trade offs. they didnt need to make Q a skillshot. we can live with it. but its annoying that this whole counterplay thing hits everyone. same way as people calls everybody toxic like a witch hunt just cause you forgot the dragon timer for instance. I dont like the culture Riot is creating.

JustMyBassCannon2 votes

TL;DR - You don't like the fact that Riot's deciding to shift from counters to counter-play.

Because, apparently, roshambo is more fun for you.

Beoridas1 votes

did i say counter play? or counterplay religion hyperbole? is there other things than counter play? yes there is. dunno the point of your answer lol.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

{quoted}

did i say counter play? or counterplay religion hyperbole? is there other things than counter play? yes there is. dunno the point of your answer lol.

I know what you said. The point of my response is that the game has always been about counters. It's a teamwork+strategy game. It's been shifting from hard counters to counter-play, which is the difference between Rock-Paper-Scissors and Fire Emblem.

Beoridas1 votes

i dont mind counter play. but the emphasis is so intense that it completely disregard things that also makes the game fun and meaningful like: trade offs, weaknesses, strenghts. That and the fact that the community are mega bandwagons followers that will use terms that riot uses and treat it like absolute truth evenb if they dont understand the concept or what it truly means.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

{quoted}

i dont mind counter play. but the emphasis is so intense that it completely disregard things that also makes the game fun and meaningful like: trade offs, weaknesses, strengths.

Strengths and weaknesses--the trade-offs of champion picks--is part of counter-picking, which is a part of counter-play.

Riot is changing the strengths and weaknesses--the trade-offs--of champions that they rework, because they cause systemic health problems (Ryze being inviable in mid-lane forcing him to run top lane and making melee bruisers feel like shit, for one example; they can't buff Ryze to mid-lane viability because top lane will get shit on even harder, but they can't just leave him a terrible mid-laner when his core design was for mid-lane).

That and the fact that the community are mega bandwagons followers that will use terms that riot uses and treat it like absolute truth even if they don't understand the concept or what it truly means.

But the players that do understand what it means, and are saying the same thing not because of the bandwagon, but because there is legitimate purpose to it, still get shit for going along with it because it's popular. Seems legit.

What strengths does Ryze lose from this rework? Well, he can't afford to build mana-tank and still kill everything, because power was shifted into AP ratios (although his mana ratios, particularly his E, are still respectable). His Q is not 100% reliable, despite the projectile speed being rather high, from what I have seen. His W has been nerfed in every aspect, his passive now has a prerequisite to work in combat, and his R has a shorter duration (and innate CDR that makes Frozen Heart less valuable).

What strengths does he gain? Longer-range harass/farming through his Q, increased potential damage output, more viability with AP itemization (which still has respectable defense options compared to mana items), better and more reliable wave-clear, stronger mana shred, and thanks to his E's new cooldown, he can either harass outside of the wave with his Q, or inside the wave with his E.

His strengths, weaknesses and counter-play will all change with the rework. Honestly, I've been waiting for this for a few months (and I'm still years waiting for them to decide what the hell they'll do to Mordekaiser, but that's a totally off-topic story). I'm excited to see how the new Ryze performs, and I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up with some post-rework buffs, considering Riot's recent history of low-balling reworks and then buffing them on par with other champs.

Nilok2 votes

Yes, because the only counter play is dodging a skill shot instead of having better positioning, zoning, communication, ganking, warding, or itemization.

JustMyBassCannon2 votes

Yes, but do any of those fix the fact that current Ryze has shit range?

Nilok2 votes

That's the main counter play against Ryze, zoning him with more range.

The range increase I have seen for Ryze, only his Q, is a pittance and overall looks weaker and can now be blocked by minions. Furthermore his kit is designed around him being close in a fight and being tanky. Ryze right now is a fairly balanced champion if sometimes a bully. If the Riot wants to give him a skill shot, which will weaken him, it will need to give something substantial back.

Honestly, I don't know if the Balance Team knows what they are doing with the Ryze remake or if they are following a mandate that every champion needs a skill shot now. However, I will await for final judgement when Ryze is released on the quality the Balance Team is producing.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

{quoted}

That's the main counter play against Ryze, zoning him with more range.

And this counter-play is what forced him into top-lane, making bruisers' lives hellish.

Something extremely important to consider when talking about counter-play is if it makes players change how they play the champion so they can avoid dealing with their weaknesses. And, if it does, whether that change in playstyle is a healthy playstyle pattern or not.

The range increase I have seen for Ryze, only his Q, is a pittance and overall looks weaker and can now be blocked by minions. Furthermore his kit is designed around him being close in a fight and being tanky.

That is his current design, yes, but they're quite obviously trying to shift his design so he actually fits in mid lane like he did in the ancient past. And increasing the range by almost +50% is pretty big; sure, he's not Xerath-tier sniping, but it comes to about-average range for mid-lane mages.

Ryze right now is a fairly balanced champion if sometimes a bully. If the Riot wants to give him a skill shot, which will weaken him, it will need to give something substantial back.

Ryze right now is a fucking terrible choice in mid lane, and as I said previously, does not make top lane any fun for melee champions.

Making Overload a skill shot has become a trade-off change. He loses 100% reliability, 0.5 seconds base CD and a bit of mana scaling for higher base, higher AP scaling and longer range with a respectable missile speed.

Rune Cage was, for the most part, nerfed. It has a higher base root duration, but by ranks 4 & 5, it's shorter than the live version. It also has lower damage. But, unless I'm mistaken, it looks like it might have gotten back a bit of the range it lost in the past.

Spell Flux lost some of the unreliability factor, and was changed from strong in duels to strong in group fights. Unless it hits next to 0 targets, it does more than the 1-bounce damage of old Spell Flux, with better shred unless they bought no MR. And at maximum targets, it's something like 450 +8% mana +120% AP damage and 36% MR shred if I remember the numbers correctly. And it has half the base cooldown. This is the reason why Ryze's Overload becoming a skill shot is alright; Spell Flux means they can't safely hide inside the minions, only far behind them. Like, out-of-range behind them.

I'm kind of upset with Desperate Power being boring as hell, but it could be worse.

Honestly, I don't know if the Balance Team knows what they are doing with the Ryze remake or if they are following a mandate that every champion needs a skill shot now. However, I will await for final judgement when Ryze is released on the quality the Balance Team is producing.

I'm pretty sure they know what they're doing. They're making him less overbearing in top lane, without altogether shoving him from top lane to mid lane.

Harry34183 votes

In response to your comment about his Q being a nerf because it is a skillshot, if you cant land skillshots, go play someone without them.

JedenVojak17 votes

I do, but they're taking all the champions that don't have skillshots, and making them skillshot champions.

They did it to Soraka, they did it to Veigar, they did it to Sion, now they're doing it to Ryze.

They're changing the no-skillshot champions into skillshot champions.

Also, taking an ability that was a targeted ability and making it a skillshot is a nerf, whether or not you're good at landing skillshots; even Challenger level players miss skillshots, and taking an ability that does damage 100% of the time, and making it not do damage 100% of the time is a nerf - you cannot objectively say otherwise.

MetalGearTeemu9 votes

{quoted}

I do, but they're taking all the champions that don't have skillshots, and making them skillshot champions.

They did it to Soraka, they did it to Veigar, they did it to Sion, now they're doing it to Ryze.

They're changing the no-skillshot champions into skillshot champions.

Also, taking an ability that was a targeted ability and making it a skillshot is a nerf, whether or not you're good at landing skillshots; even Challenger level players miss skillshots, and taking an ability that does damage 100% of the time, and making it not do damage 100% of the time is a nerf - you cannot objectively say otherwise.

I can't wait for the Gangplank rework where he's turned into a sub par bruiser with a ranged skillshot Q

Sure will be great to see him finally reach the diverse play style they're hoping for. Hue.

flibitydoo3 votes

I wouldn't say making an ability into a skillshot is a nerf.

With the new changes, Ryze can kill Akali in her shroud without the assistance of vision items.

Previously, Ryze would start to unload his combo, then Akali presses W (she can do this because all Ryze has is a snare, and Akali W isn't stopped by snares). Then Ryze can't do anything to finish the combo because he needs vision of the target to throw spells.

Now if Ryze Snares Akali, he can pump her like 3 times with Q by weaving W and E and actually kill Akali through her invisibility shroud

There's also the fact that when an ability changes from targeted to skillshot, they tend to get a range boost. Pretty much all ranged targeted spells have about 600 range or less, and most skillshots tend to float around 1000 units. This range difference is a big deal if URF mode has taught us anything.

JedenVojak2 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't say making an ability into a skillshot is a nerf.

You would be wrong. Taking an ability that applies its damage 100% of the time, and making it apply its damage less than 100% of the time is a nerf. Also it completely changes the way the ability has to be used.

{quoted}

I think his E is a straight up buff, and a pretty strong one, at that. Sure, the secondary targets might take less damage, but the primary target is going to get REKT, especially if they're in the middle of a minion wave or their team.

From what I read of the E, the change that was made is that it will hit the primary target, hit a number of nearby secondary targets (exactly 1 time each) before bouncing back to the primary target again at 50% damage. This means that it will hit the primary target exactly 2 times, and the second time will hit for half the damage of the initial hit.

As I posed up above, if you only ever hit your enemy in one bounce (the initial hit) its a buff, but in any circumstance where you would hit your initial target 2 or 3 times, and if you could reliably do that, it's a nerf.

It's the difference of 1.5x damage verses the old 1x,2x,3x damage paradigm.

Also, it bothers me how everyone always calls skillshots massively disadvantageous over targeted abilities. They both have their strengths and weaknesses. Having more range and damage isn't bad, it just means you have a chance to succeed and a chance to fail.

Skillshots are massively disadvantageous over targeted abilities. What's better, a 1000 range skillshot or a 1000 range targeted ability: the answer is clear, the targeted ability. The chance to fail is exactly what makes it worse.

flibitydoo4 votes

Except abilities that don't require targets have way more flexibility and range than targeted abilities (as I've stated earlier in my previous post).

Compare: Yasuo is classed as an easy gank target because while he does get a lot of dashes, he can only dash into enemies.

Nidalee on the other hand, is classed as a near impossible gank target because she can spam W freely in any direction.

Compare: Mundo can keep a guy slowed at 1000 range because of his skillshot.

Zilean can keep a guy slowed at 550 range because of his skillshot.

Not only that, but Mundo's cleaver has a travel time meaning the gap can be at anywhere between 1100-1200 units and mundo can slow them in scenarios where Mundo is being chased. This is because he can prefire it before the enemy walks into cleaver range. Something that Zilean cannot do (he can't slow unless they are in range)

There's also the general point that there aren't any basic abilities that are targeted that have greater than 600 range. There are some ultimates, but for the most part their effects tend to be weaker/gated compared to other skillshot based ultimates. (for example, it is a well known fact in the community that RIven ult is superior to Garen ult in every way. Even with the CDR buffs to Garen in the last patch, Riven ult still has the lesser CD)

Chromatic Eagle4 votes

They want to add counterplay. How would you do so without nerfing a champion?

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

well its both a nerf and a buff (the skillshot)

its a nerf cause you can miss and you cant poke through minions its a buff because it gets longer range and beter damage

riot gets hung up on making champions skillshot oreiented, because total lack of skillshot on champion completly kills the skills floor of that champion

basicaly if old ryze would be played in lcs ... it means that his numbers are high enough for him to wreck a big part of his opponents, not that pros like him or can use him to his full extent

personaly i like the fact that only his q became a skillshot, he still has his w and e, in hypercooldown mode he still should get to hit reliable q's thanks to cc

so yes, you are right making everything a skillshot is bad but not giving any skillsot to a champion is just as bad as the opposite

riot went ham with skillshots, thats why community hates that but in the end they need to add some skillhots or any skill oriented element to a champion (mechanical skill), otherwise said champion gets crappy ballance

JedenVojak1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vKmJTTGZ,comment-id=000400000003,timestamp=2015-04-15T23:15:09.800+0000)

well its both a nerf and a buff (the skillshot)

its a nerf cause you can miss and you cant poke through minions its a buff because it gets longer range and beter damage

riot gets hung up on making champions skillshot oreiented, because total lack of skillshot on champion completly kills the skills floor of that champion

That's fine. There's nothing wrong with a low skill floor.

basicaly if old ryze would be played in lcs ... it means that his numbers are high enough for him to wreck a big part of his opponents, not that pros like him or can use him to his full extent

That's also fine. There's nothing wrong with having a champion or group of champions that are simple enough while having a high enough degree of efficacy that some random guy who's never played League before can win against a guy who's played for years and has climbed up the ranked ladder to Diamond.

personaly i like the fact that only his q became a skillshot, he still has his w and e, in hypercooldown mode he still should get to hit reliable q's thanks to cc

so yes, you are right making everything a skillshot is bad but not giving any skillsot to a champion is just as bad as the opposite

I disagree. Not every champion needs to have a linear skillshot blocked by minions. Jax has no skillshots, and he's mostly fine; maybe a little underpowered currently, but not OP in any stretch.

riot went ham with skillshots, thats why community hates that but in the end they need to add some skillhots or any skill oriented element to a champion (mechanical skill), otherwise said champion gets crappy ballance

Or they can just let simple things be strong and let people make the choice of whether they want to fight them or not through bans. Even when Ryze "had high numbers" as it were, the actual scope of his effects was small - he's basically all single target (sans the ult, of course) and even then, what he can actually do is quite limited.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

That's also fine.

but not in a competetive game and lol became such one champions can be simpler, yes, but they need to rely on that interaction, the game is to be beetwen players ... the one who plays better winns, not the one who picks a better champion(if champion is too simple like old ryze, they get picked only for that reason, because he is just better and immune to outplaying)

Jax has no skillshots, and he's mostly fine; maybe a little underpowered currently, but not OP in any stretch.

oh boy you just said it

do you not rememberthat jax got nerfed in near past ? you know ... cause he was op and you couldnt stop him thats the non skillshot design here, with the cycles of buffs and nerfs jax is sure to explode one day, but when he does its only because of his numbers, not some epic skill displayed by the guy who plays him

Or they can just let simple things be strong and let people make the choice of whether they want to fight them or not through bans.

did you notice the "we need more banns" threads every day

banning is not an effective way of counterplay since a long time, it worked when lol was a small game, but those times are past us already

I disagree. Not every champion needs to have a linear skillshot blocked by minions

yeah i corrected myself in next paragraph its some mechanicall skillflor that i meant

Even when Ryze "had high numbers" as it were, the actual scope of his effects was small - he's basically all single target

are you implying that all of our assasins(besides kat) are useless, because they are mainly single target too (im butthurt here because that argument or whatever it is has a slight deficite of sence in it)

JedenVojak1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vKmJTTGZ,comment-id=00040000000300000000,timestamp=2015-04-15T23:46:19.921+0000)

but not in a competetive game and lol became such one champions can be simpler, yes, but they need to rely on that interaction, the game is to be beetwen players ... the one who plays better winns, not the one who picks a better champion(if champion is too simple like old ryze, they get picked only for that reason, because he is just better and immune to outplaying)

That's probably the biggest problem with LoL then. The instant the game stops being about "a bunch of cool dudes just beating each other up" and you make it a "highly competitive PVP experience", it stops being about fun and being a game. It brings in all these misguided notions about "balance and fairness" and make the game less about what's just cool and awesome.

How many threads have you seen posted complaining about player toxicity? Why is that even a thing? Because it's not just a fun game now, it's about "who's the most skilled" "what is that unskilled noob doing" "lol bronzie", that kinda thing.

oh boy you just said it

do you not rememberthat jax got nerfed in near past ? you know ... cause he was op and you couldnt stop him thats the non skillshot design here, with the cycles of buffs and nerfs jax is sure to explode one day, but when he does its only because of his numbers, not some epic skill displayed by the guy who plays him

I do remember Jax was nerfed in the past, and it was completely unneccissary. In the first place, if he's not being banned 90% of the time, he's just not powerful enough to be Jax (he's supposed to be OP according to the lore).

Aside from that, it's fun to watch people do skillful things, but ultimately who is the most skilled doesn't matter that much.

did you notice the "we need more banns" threads every day

banning is not an effective way of counterplay since a long time, it worked when lol was a small game, but those times are past us already

Yeah they probably should just get rid of bans altogether to force people to deal with OP champions, but as stated earlier, I'm not remotely interested in competitive balance. Only, "is it fun?"

are you implying that all of our assasins(besides kat) are useless, because they are mainly single target too (im butthurt here because that argument or whatever it is has a slight deficite of sence in it)

Not in the slightest. I like assassins a lot, and the ability to take someone out of the fight is fun and useful.

But there's a huge utility difference between assassinating one target, and stunning and entire team; Assassins are, for the most part, relegated to high single target burst, and not much else. Do not confuse role efficacy for scope of effect; power is "how good at I am doing the thing I'm supposed to do", scope is "what can I do, and how many people can I affect with it".

I don't know what you mean, when you say deficit of sense though.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

Aside from that, it's fun to watch people do skillful things, but ultimately who is the most skilled doesn't matter that much.

you forgot to add "to me" at the end of that sentence

the game evolves and the times where it was a game played "for fun" are long past us i see it to have its pros and conns, but you cant just say that it doesnt happen because you dont like it, it already happened and none of us got a say in this

"is it fun?"

then you shouldnt even be here

because those boards are kinda about competetive ballance mostly well game ballance is in itself 100% about playing competetively you cant ballance anything by just looking if "its fun"

But there's a huge utility difference between assassinating one target, and stunning and entire team; Assassins are, for the most part, relegated to high single target burst, and not much else. Do not confuse role efficacy for scope of effect; power is "how good at I am doing the thing I'm supposed to do", scope is "what can I do, and how many people can I affect with it".

and in a game where you usualy have 2 ppl called "carries" being single target only means that you can remove 50% of enemy's offensive power by yourself, which in the end interacts with the rest of enemy and your team

this scope of yours is about interaction, basic strategy/tactics have it covered

stuartk114 votes

{quoted}

In response to your comment about his Q being a nerf because it is a skillshot, if you cant land skillshots, go play someone without them.

You mean like Vegar? I mean Ryze. I mean... Akali? Does that count?

EvilRabbitt2 votes

Akali got nerfed pretty hard. So it does...but.... =(

Abyssphere1 votes

"In other words, Ryze is now being made into a skillshot spamming mage, which we've certainly never seen before."

I'm not sure if this is meant to be/sound sarcastic but just because every mage has a skillshot does not make "mage who literally has to aim nothing" a niche worth having in the game. Being different to most champions is great if you're different in an interesting way. Being different because you require less aiming than every other mage really is not interesting or adding anything to the game unless it's "the champion for people who have no natural aim".

Loken Stoneheart4 votes

{quoted}

"In other words, Ryze is now being made into a skillshot spamming mage, which we've certainly never seen before."

I'm not sure if this is meant to be/sound sarcastic but just because every mage has a skillshot does not make "mage who literally has to aim nothing" a niche worth having in the game. Being different to most champions is great if you're different in an interesting way. Being different because you require less aiming than every other mage really is not interesting or adding anything to the game unless it's "the champion for people who have no natural aim".

Why does EVERY champion in the game need to have a linear skillshot blocked by minions?

Do you actually know what this does to the game? It empowers mobility creep significantly even though they aren't buffing the mobile champions. Mobility creep is already a massive issue.

Do you what else this does? It makes every mage in the game a poke mage, just like they did to Veigar. He is no longer a burst mage, he's a poke mage.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by JedenVojak

Isn't New Sion's health scaling passive on Soul Furnice pointless?
Gameplay164 comments
151
votes
All increasing the burst windows of assassins does is turn them into inferior fighters.
Gameplay123 comments
50
votes
Please do not try to force me to build AD on Mordekaiser; I want to build AP.
Gameplay19 comments
40
votes
I just wanted to say, this is my first time playing URF, and I think it's really fun.
Maps & Modes15 comments
14
votes
Suggestion for new Sejuani stacking passive.
Gameplay4 comments
8
votes
Welp, just saw Poppy's new Q. Poppy is dead.
Gameplay71 comments
7
votes