After a crappy game of adc ahri, I was burned out. But then, I saw this on my screen.
I'm happy that someone who made the game experience worse for players of the game finally got rightfully punished. But, I'm even more thankful you told me I made a difference.
Beerstein5 votesI just want the tribunal back. I knew I made a difference with the tribunal.
Rito Ponytail2 votesI just want the tribunal back. I knew I made a difference with the tribunal.
The amount of times I heard that people would just nonstop vote guilty on any tribunal they got made me hate the system way more than now.
Jubbinaut2 votesEh. It wasn't really much of a thing, tbh. I mean, a lot of people claimed it happened, but it didn't, really. And honestly? It didn't really make that much of a difference - those spam-Punishers were drowned out by voters who actually reviewed the case.
Beerstein4 votes[{quoted}](name=Sea Soul,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=pTME7ta8,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-07-15T05:27:19.165+0000)
The amount of times I heard that people would just nonstop vote guilty on any tribunal they got made me hate the system way more than now.
Mostly just rumors. The few who actually did it were filtered in final results.
blacknerdtaku2 votesThe tribunal had a member report. it told you how many cases you were right in voting on.
and i seriously miss it.
Rito Ponytail3 votesI didn't know that, thanks!
Jubbinaut2 votesNo problem! Lyte has spoken about why they chose to only show it for the triggering reporter, and mostly they're just worried about it being too "spammy." He's stated that if it doesn't seem too bad, they'll scale back on that and open it out some.
Personally, I'm really excited about this, and I'm hoping it'll show more people that reports really are meaningful.
Rito Ponytail2 votesAssuming this is a verification every time riot punishes a troll/afk that is reported, it feels pretty shitty knowing that every report I've done hasn't made an affect.
Jubbinaut4 votesIt's newly implemented, and - right now - only shows for the player whose report triggered the case.
Eleshakai1 votesWow... that's just... wrong...
If I ever come back and play the game again, Riot has just ensured I will NEVER report someone again, no matter how bad their behaviour is or what they do.
The last thing I want is to be REMINDED of someone I reported... I don't want to know what happened to them, I just want to report and forget about their existence.
Ugh I hate the way Riot keeps enabling things like this. Now they're encouraging us to engage in spite... what a nice message to send.
Jubbinaut4 votesPeople asked for it. Specifically, people asked for it because they felt their reports were meaningless. And to be fair, there wasn't really much indication that they were wrong.
I don't entirely agree with it myself, but I see the need for it - or something like it. And I don't much mind this implementation in particular, since they're careful not to indicate names of any sort.
Eleshakai1 votesPeople asked for it. Specifically, people asked for it because they felt their reports were meaningless. And to be fair, there wasn't really much indication that they were wrong.
I don't entirely agree with it myself, but I see the need for it - or something like it. And I don't much mind this implementation in particular, since they're careful not to indicate names of any sort.
well ya, people are spiteful. Doesn't mean we should ENCOURAGE them to be spiteful. It's not a very positive attribute, yet here we are nurturing it like it is constructive.
Jubbinaut3 votesThat seems to be a pretty harsh assumption to make. Are they wanting it because they're spiteful, or because they need to know the system actually works?
I dunno, I guess I just don't see it as being - of necessity - a conduit for terrible. Perhaps I'm simply naturally more optimistic.
Eleshakai1 votesThat seems to be a pretty harsh assumption to make. Are they wanting it because they're spiteful, or because they need to know the system actually works?
I dunno, I guess I just don't see it as being - of necessity - a conduit for terrible. Perhaps I'm simply naturally more optimistic.
If they want SPECIFIC proof that the person THEY reported is punished, it's spite. If they would be happy with statistical data showing how many people got punished via reports, then I'd buy that they just want proof it works. There's no other reason you'd need a specific notification.
I even talked to my wife, who is in general a pretty spiteful person(she admits it, its one of her few flaws) and even SHE thinks this is utterly ridiculous.
It'd be like if you reported a co-worker for doing something and your boss came and told you the punishment he was receiving. You have NO RIGHT to that information, and if a workplace provided it they'd be hit so hard by the labour board... it's inethical. There's no reason for that info to be provided. And the only reason to want it is so you can gloat. It's a horrible behaviour to encourage.
Jubbinaut1 votesIf they want SPECIFIC proof that the person THEY reported is punished, it's spite.
There's a key word in your first sentence that isn't really applicable here: "the." This pop-up in no way indicates who was punished, only that some player that you reported was judged guilty in the case against them.
In that sense, I think it's more akin to a victim receiving a letter of judgment against a reported abuser - much like our current legal system often issues. From the individual's position, it's a matter of closure. From the system's position, it's a matter of instilling confidence in the system.
If they would be happy with statistical data showing how many people got punished via reports, then I'd buy that they just want proof it works.
Riot's done that. Repeatedly. The problem is that people don't believe it, because it's meaningless to them - it's impersonal. If I sat here and dispassionately explained about the hundreds of thousands of children starving every day, I doubt it would move you overmuch. But if you found out that your neighbor's child hadn't eaten properly in a week, that would matter to you.
It'd be like if you reported a co-worker for doing something and your boss came and told you the punishment he was receiving. You have NO RIGHT to that information, and if a workplace provided it they'd be hit so hard by the labour board... it's inethical.
It's... more like if your boss came back and told you that something had been done about it. Note, there's no details about the sanction. The only information offered is "Hey, something is actually being done about this thing."
I'm not trying to dismiss your point of view, I just think that perhaps you have a naturally more negative perception of the average person than I do. Because I don't see that desire as being spiteful, so much as gratifying or comforting.
Eleshakai1 votesIt's... more like if your boss came back and told you that something had been done about it. Note, there's no details about the sanction. The only information offered is "Hey, something is actually being done about this thing."
Except they STILL wouldn't be able to do that. Not without that guy having a case against the labour board.
Edit: And THIS is why I don't buy that people just want 'proof its working':
Riot's done that. Repeatedly. The problem is that people don't believe it, because it's meaningless to them - it's impersonal. If I sat here and dispassionately explained about the hundreds of thousands of children starving every day, I doubt it would move you overmuch. But if you found out that your neighbor's child hadn't eaten properly in a week, that would matter to you.
They're not just wanting proof it's working. They want to SPECIFICALLY see it work for the sake of getting personal gratification. Hell, Riot should just send out these notifications at random to anyone who has reported people just so people can get their sick sense of satisfaction at another's misfortune... because Riot is clearly no longer interested in nurturing healthy attitudes, just providing satisfaction to peoples' petty urges.
I have a negative perception because of the WAY THEY ACT ABOUT IT. "I love it when I get feedback on my reports, lets me know something was actually done to the PoS trolls that cost me LP" - spite "I'm happy that someone who made the game experience worse for players of the game finally got rightfully punished" - spite
Time and time again, you see the people who WANT THIS don't just want 'confirmation that something's working' they want PERSONAL SATISFACTION that this person has had something bad happen to them since they were wronged. Basically, they want revenge. Of course it's gratifying, but it's gratifying BECAUSE it is fulfilling their spite. That's a negative behaviour, and it shouldn't be encouraged. It should be discouraged.
Not everything that is gratifying is good.
Jubbinaut1 votesExcept they STILL wouldn't be able to do that. Not without that guy having a case against the labour board.
Specific to that situation, perhaps so. That doesn't address the other example.
They're not just wanting proof it's working. They want to SPECIFICALLY see it work for the sake of getting personal gratification. Hell, Riot should just send out these notifications at random to anyone who has reported people just so people can get their sick sense of satisfaction at another's misfortune... because Riot is clearly no longer interested in nurturing healthy attitudes, just providing satisfaction to peoples' petty urges.
Personal gratification is not an inherently bad thing. It's all fine and well to know that tens of thousands of people are being helped by any of the social systems we have (the system works!), but if they aren't doing anything for you, it seems like the system is completely failing.
This is simply an extension of that same concept - personalize the message to the audience. Which is a standard communication tool.
I have a negative perception because of the WAY THEY ACT ABOUT IT. "I love it when I get feedback on my reports, lets me know something was actually done to the PoS trolls that cost me LP" - spite "I'm happy that someone who made the game experience worse for players of the game finally got rightfully punished" - spite
You see it as spite. I see it as validation. Specifically, the overarching emotional tone I'm reading into most of these statements is "What I did mattered, and benefited myself and others." That it did so at the expense of another is intrinsic to the action itself.
Not everything that is gratifying is good.
Nor is everything that is gratifying bad.
Eleshakai1 votesSpecific to that situation, perhaps so. That doesn't address the other example.
Personal gratification is not an inherently bad thing. It's all fine and well to know that tens of thousands of people are being helped by any of the social systems we have (the system works!), but if they aren't doing anything for you, it seems like the system is completely failing.
This is simply an extension of that same concept - personalize the message to the audience. Which is a standard communication tool.
You see it as spite. I see it as validation. Specifically, the overarching emotional tone I'm reading into most of these statements is "What I did mattered, and benefited myself and others." That it did so at the expense of another is intrinsic to the action itself.
Nor is everything that is gratifying bad.
I never said everything that was gratifying was bad. Winning a game is gratifying, eating food you've made yourself is gratifying, etc.
But most of the things that are gratifying that are good are not things that are built on a sense of getting satisfaction at another's misfortunre, they're not built on a sense of vengeance or spite. They're built on a sense of accomplishment or of acquisition.
Jubbinaut1 votesI never said everything that was gratifying was bad. Winning a game is gratifying, eating food you've made yourself is gratifying, etc.
But most of the things that are gratifying that are good are not things that are built on a sense of getting satisfaction at another's misfortunre, they're not built on a sense of vengeance or spite. They're built on a sense of accomplishment or of acquisition.
I like that. A sense of accomplishment. That's what I see when I look at players who appreciate this system - recognition of accomplishment. "I did something that made a difference." It's the same sense, I think, that encouraged players to participate in the Tribunal - the awareness that they were making a difference.
I think it's unfortunate that you can't seem to see that.
Eleshakai1 votesI like that. A sense of accomplishment. That's what I see when I look at players who appreciate this system - recognition of accomplishment. "I did something that made a difference." It's the same sense, I think, that encouraged players to participate in the Tribunal - the awareness that they were making a difference.
I think it's unfortunate that you can't seem to see that.
If you get a sense of accomplishment out of others' misfortune, then I guess there's just a fundamental moral difference between us.
When a person does something bad and gets what is coming to them I think to myself 'damn, I wish I could've done something to prevent that from being necessary' not 'hahahahahaha he got what's coming to him! WHAT A JERK! MWAHAHA'. There's no satisfaction in it for me. Because, while I accept its necessity, I don't see it as a positive. I see it as a failure that it was necessary in the first place.
It's a pity you see other people having bad things happen to them, deserved or otherwise, as a positive. As an accomplishment. The accomplishments are when I manage to take someone who is acting toxic and help them through it so they can become productive. THAT is where there is real accomplishment, not in letting them get to the point the system needs to take a hand in it.
Jubbinaut1 votesY'know what? I go out of my way to be polite and respectful to you, but just this once, I'm gonna say exactly what I think, the way I think it:
I'm absolutely fucking sick of you making ridiculous assumptions about my morality. I'm sick of your holier-than-thou mentality, and I'm sick of you acting like what you think is somehow the same as what is, purely by virtue of you thinking it. It's utterly ridiculous.
That said, allow me to address your specific statements to ensure clarity.
If you get a sense of accomplishment out of others' misfortune, then I guess there's just a fundamental moral difference between us.
You're assuming that the sense of accomplishment comes from the misfortune. I contend - as I've stated before - that the sense of accomplishment comes from the prevention of future problems.
And yeah, maybe there's some vindictiveness in their words. But humans are complex creatures, fully capable of experience and recognizing multiple emotional states at the same time. To assume that the entirety of that can be summed up in such a simple concept as "spite" is foolish and petty.
When a person does something bad and gets what is coming to them I think to myself 'damn, I wish I could've done something to prevent that from being necessary' not 'hahahahahaha he got what's coming to him! WHAT A JERK! MWAHAHA'. There's no satisfaction in it for me. Because, while I accept its necessity, I don't see it as a positive. I see it as a failure that it was necessary in the first place.
And what's wrong with, "Well, that sucks, but at least he won't be bothering anyone else?"
Or, "Thank God, after being matched with that guy 3 times in a row, I was worried about having to deal with him again."
Or, "At least it's done."
Let me try and be really clear, here: your emotional reaction to this is not the only morally correct one, nor is it the only reasonable or rational one.
It's a pity you see other people having bad things happen to them, deserved or otherwise, as a positive. As an accomplishment. The accomplishments are when I manage to take someone who is acting toxic and help them through it so they can become productive. THAT is where there is real accomplishment, not in letting them get to the point the system needs to take a hand in it.
I didn't say I saw it as a positive. I never actually said a word about how I saw that specific situation. I was, however, clearly stating that when I see what other people are saying, I am seeing them expressing a sense of accomplishment.
You talk about accomplishment like it's a binary thing. Like you can't have scales of accomplishment. Like you can't feel good about a partial victory: "I didn't manage to calm him down, but at least he can't hurt anyone else for a while." Except people can. People can choose to recognize the positive of a bad situation. There's a cliche for it and everything.
Eleshakai1 votesHonestly, Jubb, I would buy that for YOU the accomplishment comes from the prevention of future problems. But that's because you've proven yourself to have a relatively strong set of morals. Regardless of whether they're different from mine, they are strong. And I can see you feeling that way.
Looking at the way people are talking about this sort of thing, I would say that the VAST MAJORITY of people who are happy about this are in the opposite situation:
"Woot, he got punished. Oh and hey it helps others too. Even better."(if this latter ever even occurs to them, honestly)
But as to your one comment: "I'm absolutely fucking sick of you making ridiculous assumptions about my morality."
The assumption I made is simple: Your morals differ from mine on a fundamental level.
Is that an unfair assumption? Really?
Jubbinaut1 votesLooking at the way people are talking about this sort of thing, I would say that the VAST MAJORITY of people who are happy about this are in the opposite situation:
"Woot, he got punished. Oh and hey it helps others too. Even better."(if this latter ever even occurs to them, honestly)
See, this is exactly what I was saying: You seem to jump to the worst possible explanation. You also seem to be oversimplifying a complicated emotional state.
But as to your one comment: "I'm absolutely fucking sick of you making ridiculous assumptions about my morality."
The assumption I made is simple: Your morals differ from mine on a fundamental level.
Is that an unfair assumption? Really?
Do you really want me to go back through our prior conversations? The ones where you actually tell me that I'm morally bankrupt? I'm not unwilling to go find those quotes, but I really don't want to. I'm too lazy and not vindictive enough to actually enjoy it.
Eleshakai1 votesSee, this is exactly what I was saying: You seem to jump to the worst possible explanation. You also seem to be oversimplifying a complicated emotional state.
Do you really want me to go back through our prior conversations? The ones where you actually tell me that I'm morally bankrupt? I'm not unwilling to go find those quotes, but I really don't want to. I'm too lazy and not vindictive enough to actually enjoy it.
I really don't care one way or the other what you do. Because I'm speaking in the context of this discussion. If you wish to drag other unrelated conversations into it, that's your call.
It's funny, because most people who know me would argue 100% the opposite. I generally think far too highly of people. My wife is constantly laughing about how I assume the best.
But I'm also realistic. I know that most people don't care about others they don't know. Especially those who have in some way wronged them, however minor the wrong may be. And people generally are willing to be vindictive towards those people.
I recognize this. I understand it. And I acknowledge it. It's been largely proven to be true. You even said it yourself with your example of the 'kids starving'. It only hits home when you know someone in the situation for the majority of people.
What I dislike is that Riot is ENCOURAGING that mentality. They're using it to increase customer satisfaction, and while I get that it's good marketing... I don't think it's a good moral statement. And for a company who has been so vocal about trying to improve the community to be encouraging negative mentalities is something I find kind of unfortunate.
YossarianSensei2 votesThat's your opinion bro
I love it when I get feedback on my reports, lets me know something was actually done to the PoS trolls that cost me LP
Eleshakai1 votesThat's your opinion bro
I love it when I get feedback on my reports, lets me know something was actually done to the PoS trolls that cost me LP
That's because you're full of spite. A decent individual wouldn't be happy to see others have misfortune come to them, regardless of if they deserved it. The fact that you get joy out of knowing others had bad things happen to them is... kind of saddening. Ya, they deserved it, but making fanfare out of others misfortune simply seems morally wrong.
bluegolisano1 votesWhen did the Tribunal come live again?
EL HAMSTERO1 voteshaha great job! the best way to get people banned is to take troll picks and then do terrible. people cant help but rage at yoU! and then you get to troll on while they get banned for it ahahaha!
