Why do some champions benefit very slightly from AP??

Tripgnosis·Dec 5, 2014·8 votes·2,614 views

just played Urgot in ARAM and forgot to change my masteries and runes, so I had AP. Only benefit of this is a slightly better shield making AP urgot (obviously) non-viable. So from a design standpoint then, why does he benefit from AP at all? if played correctly, that 'bonus' should be 0 anyway. I very much like the idea of champions being designed in a way that allows for different VIABLE builds. And there are many champs who could be AP, AD, tank, or mixed builds. But There are still quite a lot of champions who, though they may have one ability that benefit from AP, its not enough to make an AP build viable. like Urgot for example, its not even enough to warrant an AD/AP hybrid or an AP/Tank. So again, why have him benefit at all from AP? Any thoughts? A response from riot would be awesome - just to satisfy my curiosity ;)

44 Comments

PryotraDec 5, 201419 votes

Actually, Trinity force was initially a tertiary reasoning, that only makes sense now because the old reason no longer exists.

Back in the day, Ability power meant "stat that makes abilities better". Over time, we have seen more and more forms of scaling happen, which is why you usually see only mages scaling with ability power, a stat now defined more as "Stat that makes magic stuff better", while other champions get different scalings.

Now this also fed into ancient times Baron. Back in S1, Baron used to give AP and other combat stats. This was supposed to be a universally good buff for your team, hence AP as a buffed stat. Because every champion had abilities, right?

Nowadays, the only real remaining reason is Trinity force, but honestly for some of the scalings it only makes some sense.

OblongOtterDec 6, 20141 votes

Well Baron still gives AP.

Drunk RummateDec 5, 201414 votes

to make triforce a viable pick for all champions was his mission

insert picture of phreak

AP SejuaniDec 5, 20145 votes

It's for Trinity Force. Even champions that don't often build it (Sivir, Aatrox, Yasuo) have AP scalings so that they can make use of the AP Triforce gives. Rito just wants to increase diversity and new build possibilities.

TripgnosisDec 5, 20142 votes

eh, I'm less than convinced. Its just one item. I dont understand why they would have a rule of thumb on including AP for all champs (or most champs) just for ONE item. And besides, its not enough of a benefit to make it worth it. If it scaled BETTER with AP (still talking about urgot specifically) than it would be a different story. But even with a full AP build, the bonus to his shield is not worth it. And if the trinity force is the ONLY ap item, then its pretty much nil.

ShadowParkerDec 6, 20141 votes

I don't think you understand how much triforce is actually used. And would you rather have no bonus instead of a little one?

XonraDec 5, 20143 votes

The only reason champions like Urgot have AP is because of outdated design methods that have yet to be fixed with a few select champions. Same reason why Yi used to have a ton of AP scaling for no reason. Granted it used to be a lot worse but there are still some odd cases like Urgot shield or Cait trap.

I get they can't all have AD scaling but why not have no scaling there, or scale with something different that you might actually build? Why does a Cait trap even need a scaling? Why does Urgot's shield need AP scaling of all things? Etc etc

TripgnosisDec 5, 20142 votes

Actually i miss the old yi. AP yi used to be viable, allowing you a choice in how he is played. Now theres really only one way to build him, which is less interesting in my opinion.

And if its old, outdated design methods that have YET to be fixed with certain champs, why are they releasing new champs desgned along teh same lines - ie Yas and Gnar. I'm not that familiar with them myself but from what others have said....

And cait actually has TWO abilities that scale with AP, I wouldnt say it makes an AP build viable but its less a waste than AP on Urgot. And to be honest I wish her ult scaled off both AP and AD which WOULD make an AP build viable for her, and like old-yi would give players a choice of how they want to build her. But thats just me. My most disliked thing about LoL is how its easily metagamed and that for so many (most) champs, there's really only one way to build/play them. It makes for a less interesting agem in my opinion. Not trying to flame em for it, its stll a great game. Its just my own humble opinion...

JunkοDec 5, 20143 votes

Actually i miss the old yi. AP yi used to be viable, allowing you a choice in how he is played. Now theres really only one way to build him, which is less interesting in my opinion.

First of all AP Yi was broken and frustrating to play against. There was no choice. You Q'd and Q'd and Q'd with free resets. You are about to die? Press W and regen all of your health. There was no way to build him without being called a troll other than 5 rabadons and a Zhonya either

AGarnerDec 5, 20142 votes

It's just to give a second scaling. Gnar has a 1:1 ratio on his W just because he has two scalings, doesn't make him OP just another scaling. It's also to keep from making something, OP Gnars W no matter how low the AD scaling would be really strong with AD scaling, so it's AP.

Malicious FuryDec 5, 20147 votes

They could make it not scale with anything rather than make it scale with AP. Nobody is going to build AP Gnar unless they are trolling.

Tsukuy0m1Dec 5, 20149 votes

They could make it not scale with anything rather than make it scale with AP. Nobody is going to build AP Gnar unless they are trolling.

triforce

Sewer RatDec 5, 20141 votes

AP Gnar is OP, bro

Not even trolling, if you can get that DFG-auto-Q-auto combo, it deals like 3k damage.

TripgnosisDec 5, 20147 votes

It's just to give a second scaling. Gnar has a 1:1 ratio on his W just because he has two scalings, doesn't make him OP just another scaling. It's also to keep from making something, OP Gnars W no matter how low the AD scaling would be really strong with AD scaling, so it's AP.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree that champs are more interesting and dynamic if their abilities dont scale off of just one stat. But if an ability scales off AP, and an AP build is troll, then the bonus is just 0 anyway which means there actually is no second scaling. And there ARE other stats to scale off other than AP and AD. I dont know Gnar, but Urgots w for example could scale off his armour or mr, which would make him a more viable pick since he is (and I'm sure everyone agrees) very underpowered.

AGarnerDec 5, 20141 votes

It's just to give a second scaling. Gnar has a 1:1 ratio on his W just because he has two scalings, doesn't make him OP just another scaling. It's also to keep from making something, OP Gnars W no matter how low the AD scaling would be really strong with AD scaling, so it's AP.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree that champs are more interesting and dynamic if their abilities dont scale off of just one stat. But if an ability scales off AP, and an AP build is troll, then the bonus is just 0 anyway which means there actually is no second scaling. And there ARE other stats to scale off other than AP and AD. I dont know Gnar, but Urgots w for example could scale off his armour or mr, which would make him a more viable pick since he is (and I'm sure everyone agrees) very underpowered.

I generally see it as a way to pave new paths for builds everyone's always following what the pros say or what's highest rated on lolking but with the AP scaling I could build a hextech Gunblade and use the spell vamp to keep me alive knowing I didn't waste any Gold on 50 AP (this is for Gnar, Don't build a gunblade on Urgot unless you plan on spamming your Q into hell.)

OnegarionDec 6, 20141 votes

The extra scaling isn't because they intend for you to go full AP builds on these champs, but that hybrid options are now viable. If Gnar didn't have AP scaling there wouldn't be a huge deal to getting tri force. He woulnd't benefit nearly as much and would waste almost 1200g in the tri's value. It also allows them more options to alter a champions power. If you find 1 item that is very dominant on a champ you can change the scaling to alter the items they pick.

It allows Riot more options to change champions and allows the player the ability to have hybrid builds. Look at akali if she didn't have AP and AD scaling through her passive it would make a much more linear build. Darius is a really good example in that he has 0 AP scaling and has a very linear build in what he can get. It leaves him with strict options that he can't really deviate much from. Not that it makes him any less fun, but it makes almost every Darius the same.

You may be right in the way that urgot could scale, but I'm pretty sure he is getting a rework and they are putting more effort into the rework than to balance him in his current state. There are a lot of things they could really change about a lot of champs that would fit their style, zac with health/resistance scaling comes to mind. Eventually they may get around to it, but right now we need to just work on the AP/AD scaling.

Hope that gives a little help and perspective

TripgnosisDec 5, 20142 votes

How can we get a response on this from the actual champ designers you think? I would love to get the insights of the people who actually make these decisions. Will riot be more likely to notice this thread if i mention riot more often riot you think riot?

Dr Clueless PhDDec 5, 20147 votes

You're unaware of this, but these are what you've gotten. The responses from Pryotra and everyone else aren't just theory. This is what Riot has said over the years. Maybe you haven't been around to have this conversation before, but it's definitely old, and these are the answers we've always gotten.

TripgnosisDec 5, 20142 votes

Yeah i havent been playin LoL for years and I'm I dont frequent the boards much.

Dr Clueless PhDDec 5, 20141 votes

Well, you've got your answer. Originally, it was the stat that boosted abilities. Then, they decided AD ratios could be a thing, and kept AP ratios around where AD ratios weren't a good idea, so the Champ could still benefit from bonus AP like Baron, Triforce, Sona's Q aura, Will of the Ancients AP Aura, etc.

TripgnosisDec 5, 20141 votes

But if the benefit is so small as to be nil, then there really is no point in having a benefit at all.

Dr Clueless PhDDec 5, 20144 votes

Then what is the point of Masteries or Runes? The benefit they give is so small as to be insignificant. One rune isn't much (in general). Neither is one Mastery point (in general).

The point of small benefits is that they do add up, and they do make a difference, even if you may not be terribly aware of it. You may not realize if you were missing one Red off of your favorite rune page. But, you would certainly know it if you didn't have runes at all. Small benefits still make a difference.

TripgnosisDec 5, 20141 votes

because if your using the right runes and masteries, its a bonus to what you are already utilizing. I dont use AP masteries on AD champs (at least not on purpose lol) but AD runes and masteries on AD champs is MORE bonus to what you already have bonuses too. Its complimentary to teh champ and to teh items you are likely building, and so it all adds up. But if the only AP bonus you get is from lil tertiary stuff like auras or buffs or triforce, then it doesnt really seem to matter.. maybe I'm wrong, its just the way I see it.

Dr Clueless PhDDec 5, 20142 votes

You missed my point, because you're focusing on the fact that it's an AP ratio on an AD Champ.

Let's use Urgot as an example. Urgot, no matter how you're trying to build him, would be happy to have more shield. You're not going to look at a free boost to his shield size and say "Nah. I'd rather have nothing." Any time he buys a Sheen item, gets Baron Buff, or gets an AP boost from anywhere else, that's what you're getting. That boost to your shield. That small buff that makes a difference, even though it's small.

TripgnosisDec 5, 20141 votes

that is a good point. Having an ability that scales with AP allows you to get something from those situations where you get a free boost to AP - from other champions auras and the like.

Duke AnaxDec 5, 20141 votes

dunno about being small: 30 AP, give a 23% boost to a level 1 shield and a 8% boost to a level 5 shield.

If he doesn't take triforce, he could take Iceborn as a defensive item.

Even Zhonyas active is worth considering if you don't have to worry about comletely wasting all that stats.

TripgnosisDec 5, 20141 votes

also good points

GorbacheDec 5, 20142 votes

How can we get a response on this from the actual champ designers you think? I would love to get the insights of the people who actually make these decisions. Will riot be more likely to notice this thread if i mention riot more often riot you think riot?

There you go: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/4q7zYFAK-reksai-qa?comment=000e0000 A Riot answer to this question.

Hullabaloo907Dec 5, 20141 votes

Yas is another good example. Why ap scaling on that e?

HeraldOneDec 5, 20144 votes

[deleted]

JunkοDec 5, 20141 votes

You aren't even gonna come close to one shotting champions with E with that build.

CaptnJakSparrowDec 5, 20141 votes

Cause AP Yasuo can one shoot minions and champions with it and it's on a 0 second cooldown.

'Just woke up one day and decided to be a Wizard.'

Ap Yasuo actually still dunks. Done did it.

TripgnosisDec 5, 20141 votes

Well from what I've read so far it seems lkie maybe its more along the lines of Urgot being in dire need of an update. AP on Yas seems worthwhile from what HeraldOne says, and gunblade on Gnar seems worthwhile from what AGarner says. Again, I dont play these champs so i'm just deferring to their opinions. And since Cait does have 2 abilities that scale with AP, it may be worth it for her as well... But i cant think of and have heard no example of how to utilize AP on Urgot. Unless "spamming Q to hell" with gunbalde IS the answer. Appreciate all the insights and opinions.

AkeitoDec 5, 20141 votes

Jax is the most classy reason here

Some "mage" also have slight scaling with AD, Akali Mordekaiser

CoCo BoEyDec 5, 20141 votes

Kinda like ashe, her ult is ap scaled and I have went ap ashe before to see the difference and damage. Even with all ap items her ult she didn't do crap...

SummonerSquidDec 5, 20141 votes

item 3078 OP

TaoistMasterDec 5, 20141 votes

Gangplank item 3089

He pressed W and was K.

Heartless JackDec 5, 20141 votes

In Urgot 's (one very specific) case, you can build item 3078 item 3027 item 3042 . Why RoA? You benefit from the mana pool and it is a niche build but a fun one.

CerbearusDec 5, 20141 votes

Makes use of the random AP you would get from Sheen items, Baron buff, etc.

EleshakaiDec 5, 20141 votes

Usually it's given to champs who itemize things like TF that have small amounts of AP on them ot provide one more lever for balance/scaling on them, as others have said.

MalganaDec 5, 20141 votes

His shield used to scale off of AD, but then Riot said it was too OP and changed it to AP.

Riot also then went on to release Riven, whose AD scaling shield makes it so all she has to do is build AD then slap the keyboard to play, but apparently it's fine on her.

JunkοDec 5, 20141 votes

It's because AP used to be the stat you built for more ability damage, there was no such thing as AD scalings (or they were very weak).

CaptnJakSparrowDec 5, 20141 votes

Though, it was this build to be exact.

item 3020 item 3100 item 3115 item 3128 item 3068 item 3116 Runes: All Crit.