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What i took away from "the round table DQ discussion"

OldDirtay··3 votes·1,138 views

this is what i took away from the video

-riot cares about the top 10%, and offers no fix for the other 90%

-they plan to make that top 10% go back to pretty much soloq format? (only up to 3 premade)..why have dq?

-they agree que times all around are bad to put it lightly, and in high mmr its horrendous

-this is a 2 parter, first they say premade vs solos is fine if mmr is equal, dq offers no advantage

-then not even 5mins later says you have an advantage by being in a premade

-totally disregards voicechat and how that could unbalance things

-quality of matches is just bad

-soloque used to mean something, now dynamic que makes it mean something else (aka integrity to no integrity)

-toxicity is down! WRONG, play as a solo player and you will see what i mean....in the video they say toxicity is down by a HUGE margin....but also forgot to add the fact that people are grouping with friends and obviously not going to report eachother....is it that hard to make this basic connection? did u think grouping with friends that reports would stay the same or amount to more reports overall? no...this is common sense and honestly this gets me the most.

-gbay made a good point, player A is better than player B....player A ques solo and takes a year to get say gold, while player B is worse and does it in a month....yes player A will feel like crap for obvious reasons, and thats what it boils down to ranked integrity and it meaning something to climb...not get boosted to where u dont belong couple with the fact you're gonna ruin games if u play solo because you shouldnt be that rank/ you will hinder your own team and it will come down to how far they can carry you

-"dynamic que is overall better expect one part, the meaningful part" when the rioter said this i could only laugh....que times are bad, match quality is bad, integrity overall is bad, unless you're premade you usually feel like a hostage.....how was dynamic que better again? cuz u can grp with friends? i see how that hurts the game but not help...as far as ranked...but exactly what parts of DQ make it "overall better" than SQ? SQ has ranked integrity going for it, lower que times, more even games going for it so what does dq have? dont say champ select because thats not DQ thats literally a new champion select...dont confuse the 2

-gbay brings up another good point, its probably less toxic because people arent fighting in champ select for mid etc...but that again is somehow a benefit of DQ and not the new champion select....i guess...

-"we are going to fix the quality but we cant tell you how" another we are gonna X without giving a date, or an facts on how they plan to do it..."secret sauce"...lol reminds me of "we are releasing soloque!"

ill leave u with one of riots last comments, right after gbay (wants to say but beast around the bush) u guys are shady af and u say fk the community if they dont agree to something you want.

but onto the quote from that shady ass rioter next to scarra

"we want soloque players to have an EQUAL chance of winning all their games and WE HAVENT with dynamic ranked"

his words, not mine....but he seems to somehow say dynamic que doesnt offer advantages but then says stuff like this that hints to dynamic que being an advantage and soloque players dont have equal chances... but then again thats riot in a nutshell, bunch of money hungry shady lying mfers

dont believe me? watch the video again, all of this was pull from the video and the last quote is at 24:20

7 Comments

SOLOQSUPERHERO2 votes

Honestly my biggest issue with DQ is that I have a pretty wide champion pool and spread, I don't feel like I can really access it.

Previously if someone was like, hey i'd really like to play rumble top I'm great at it! I'd be like awesome, I can jungle sejuani, let's burn their team alive!

I think that kind of dynamic team building was really fun to play with. I'm sad to see it go, though I do get that DQ offers a stability in position. For some people they won't play if they don't get X position and now they can. I just wish I wasn't so pidgeon holed (let's not pretend fill is anything other than another word for support in this queue environment.)

MisterHealYoGirl1 votes

The reason that Riot is focusing their efforts on the extreme upper end of players is because that's where the problem is. Dynamic queue has had effects on the entire playerbase, but because of how the pyramid works, the highest end is massively more affected; as such, taking measures to address the people with the biggest problem makes sense, dude.

Premade groups do have an advantage over five solo players with the same MMR as they do; that's why they're matched with slightly more skilled players (giving them a 50% winrate). That's why fours and fives are being removed from the highest level; the net is being cast too wide already for those small adjustments in average ELO to work without a massive increase in queue time. Voice chat is not something that League can control; either you use it or you don't. The best that they can do is adjust for it.

Reports are used to say whether a PLAYER is toxic. This can help to see whether a game might have been, they measure lots of other things, too, like in-game flaming, afk checks, unresponsiveness, and suspicious reports. It's their JOB; if they say that toxicity is down, believe me, they've measured it.

Gbay's part is a little more subjective. The way I would say it is that player A was really good at hard carrying when playing on her own; making smart rotations, outplaying opponents in lane, getting objectives and towers, and so on. Player B is just as good at the game (that is, she wins just as many games), but she's better at working with a team. They're both equally good at different parts of the game (working alone, working with a group), and so they reach the same MMR. I don't see anything wrong with this, though you might. I'm just here to explain the other side.

More people are playing ranked than ever, and toxicity has gone down. That's the immediate benefits. If you want to exclude the new champion select (even though it's part and parcel with dynamic queue), fine, but I'd put that down, too.

They can't say exactly how they're planning to fix it because they are literally not allowed to. The analysis or engine that they're using is proprietary, and they are contractually limited in how they can talk about it. It's not some massive conspiracy, and they've stated that they plan to be more open in the future. What more do you want?

The last quote just seems like 'this system isn't perfect yet, we're working on it'. I don't see the scandal you're digging for.

BestTristMyHaus1 votes

{quoted}

More people are playing ranked than ever, and toxicity has gone down. That's the immediate benefits. If you want to exclude the new champion select (even though it's part and parcel with dynamic queue), fine, but I'd put that down, too.

Speaking only to this point, I can't say for toxicity (I think role selection is much more of a factor, but I admittedly have no proof), BUT I will say for ranked my participation is ONLY due to Role Selection (which you CAN do solo (and I do)). No matter if DQ stays or goes, I currently play ranked because I have capability to choose my role. If you take away ONLY that feature and leave everything else intact, I will stop playing ranked. (I do this because I don't want to be a liability at the role I suck at)

OldDirtay1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mahou Girl Mami,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=WV4yPTAP,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-06-01T18:50:40.581+0000)

Speaking only to this point, I can't say for toxicity (I think role selection is much more of a factor, but I admittedly have no proof), BUT I will say for ranked my participation is ONLY due to Role Selection (which you CAN do solo (and I do)). No matter if DQ stays or goes, I currently play ranked because I have capability to choose my role. If you take away ONLY that feature and leave everything else intact, I will stop playing ranked. (I do this because I don't want to be a liability at the role I suck at)

theres no real reason to get rid of new champ select

however, im saying new champ select is the main reason and new champ select is NOT dq, it is a whole seperate thing

BestTristMyHaus1 votes

And I TOTALLY agree, I was noting that many, including (I thought) the poster I replied to and definitely the Rioters in the released video, think that DQ is responsible for increases in ranked play. And speaking ONLY for myself I can say it had absolutely ZERO impact on my choice. In fact, right now I expressly choose NOT to play with my friends. (partly so as to not weight them down while I improve)

OldDirtay1 votes

first off there is a difference between focusing on something, and ignoring something

second, premade groups do have an advantage, least u admit it.....but also, they said they COULD make it so you get matched with slightly higher skilled opponents if u premade.....that is not the case right now and if u want i can link u to a game where my team had one duo...highest rank was 2 silver players 1 bronze and 2 unranked against 2 golds and 3 silvers....btw the golds were gold last year, and one of the silvers on my team and the bronze were both...u guessed it...bronze last year...oh btw on na.op.gg it even said their mmr is higher... so if what u say is true how did this happen? dont take what they say they CAN do as something that IS being done....2 totally different things

third, theres not really much difference in terms of DQ ina high elo vs low elo scenario...i mean sure obv high elo players are better and can capitalize on mistakes etc better but if ur in low elo i imagine that those "unfair" qualities are still there just not utilized AS much...but to say it isnt utilized is dumb...its a broken system dude face it even riot agrees with me on this

fourth, did i ever say toxicity wasnt down? or did i say its down bc people arent reporting their friends for the same behavior they would report someone else? read the whole thing just dont stick to keywords plz

fifth, really gbay said that? pretty sure he said both people are about the same but one is slightly better yet the worse one got higher quicker bc of DQ (in his example) i dont remember one part about him saying how he was better...also he never said anything about player B being better at teamplay...in fact the only thing he said about him was that he premade and was worse than player A....so w/e u say for player B i can say for A +1....yet player B climbs quicker.....makes u think, or least some of us

sixth, more people play ranked....wow...tell me how getting preschoolers to play football makes the sport any better? oh it doesnt, it just means more money coming in to them...wonder why they support it....

7th, they arent allowed and i wonder why....could it be some type of way to "beat" the system? btw isnt the system on their end? how could u even do that w/o hacking them in some way and how couldnt that be detected? not only that but i see no reason for them to hide it if everything is done on their side and there is nothing we can do to manipulate it....on the other hand, if it could be manipulated or was flawed in any visable way they would hide it....otherwise what is there to hide? honestly idc how the system works as long as it works...atm its not working...sure it gets u in games but the games are horrible compared to soloq (which wasnt the greatest either but great in teams of quality ina DQ vs SQ debate)

last but not least, what scandal? i quoted him, what u do with that quote is on you...those are his words and i even added quotes to it so u know thats him saying it..... or was it cuz i said DQ offers advantages? bc again he said that in the video himself (dont get me wrong earlier in video he says its fine for 5 solos to fight 5 premades as long as mmr is equal....but yet turns it around at end of the video and says the premades have a slight advantage)

facts are facts man, how u take em is up to you....buuuuut....if someone says water is wet, you're free to think its dry but it doesnt change the facts....and in this case the facts are simple

-reports are down bc ur with friends, and new champ select -over match quality is DOWN -que times are UP -ranked integrity is GONE

but its brought us..... -being able to que with friends.......in ranked is only change

worth to you? if so u dont care that matches will be unequal, will take u a grip to get a game, and now ranks mean nothing....then ur just a boostie lol

deal w/ it bro =/

MisterHealYoGirl1 votes

(Assuming that this is in response to me). First of all, please use periods instead of ellipses. It makes your writing super hard to read.

  1. Anectodal evidence, though useful on its own, can't be used to judge the system on the whole. Nobody cares whether any particular game that you play is better or worse; what matters is whether and how the experience of all players has changed on average. They ARE currently leveraging groups against higher level opponents (as your story confirms?), but working out exactly how hard will take a long time. How much more advantage does a 3-man group have than a 4-man group? How much variation is there in teamwork between groups? How much MMR is an effective handicap for a group? And so on.

  2. High ELO is different because the adjustment that offsets dynamic groups is much less effective there, due to the smaller number of players. Say you have 100 MMR and are in Bronze; the system will try to match you with people between 90 and 110 MMR. If you have a group of three on your side, it might instead look for players between 120 and 150; this is easy enough to do; there are many players with that MMR.

At high ELO, however, it's much more difficult. Since there are so few players there, the range of MMRs that it looks for is much wider (in order to get you into a game in reasonable time). A player with 1000 MMR might be matched with players between 900 and 1100 MMR; the change of 30 that the group adds is dwarfed by the variation in that ELO already. The change will average out over many, many games, but in any particular one, the system simply can't effectively handicap for pre-mades.

  1. Again, reports are not the only measure of toxicity. Did you read my whole post?

  2. Oh, I wasn't trying to quote him there, I was just addressing the same issue he was. Sorry about the confusion. And Player A ISN'T as good at teamwork as Player B is: if she was, she'd have a higher MMR. There's a whole new part of the ranked system that she's ignoring. It's just a tool, like rotations, objective timing, and wave management. Say you didn't like masteries, and refused to use them. You might see people who use them rise faster than you, even if they're worse at the other parts of the game than you are. You can't claim that the game is unfair just because you refuse to learn the rules.

  3. What? If people hated Ranked, they would stop playing it. Since a mass exodus from Ranked hasn't happened, I concluded that most of the community doesn't care. I don't get what you're trying to say with the preschoolers thing; the new people aren't incompetent at the game. They just haven't been choosing to play Ranked.

  4. I honestly have no idea what you're saying here. They can't talk about exactly how they're fixing the problem because they're contractually obligated not to. It's an intellectual property thing; the employees don't own the algorithm that makes matches, so they can't talk freely about it. It's not like they're twiddling their fingers and saying 'mmmm, how best can we enrage OldDirtay today'. Given the amount of times that they said 'we screwed up' and 'we need to be more open with the playerbase' in that video, do you really thing they weren't explaining as much as they could?

  5. The quote you gave in the original was "We want Solo Queue players to have an equal chance of winning all their games and we haven't with dynamic ranked." I don't see anything particularly notable about this quote; they're admitting that the system is far from perfect and reminding everybody that they're working on it. You seemed to take it as evidence that there was some vast conspiracy to deceive players and to ruin games, which I just don't see.

  6. Repeat after me: reports are not the only measure of toxicity. Games with large pre-mades are not significantly more toxic than games without them. Match quality is indeed down, and queue times are indeed up, but for someone who repeats so often that Dynamic Queue and the new champion select are distinct entities, you seem to have forgotten it here. These changes (queue time especially) are the result of that, not DQ.

The ranked integrity question is more complicated, and it really depends on how you think about the game. I don't think that the addition of larger groups has compromised the integrity of the system (see 5). If you do, that's your opinion. We're working from different definitions here. In ELO terms, I see the addition of DQ as an expansion of the list of the skills that help you to rise in the ranks (akin to learning a new champion or role, wave management, etc.); you see it as undermining the achievement of those who have already mastered the smaller list. Neither one of us is necessarily wrong or right (I think we're both right, honestly), but Riot seems to be working with the first definition moving onwards.

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