Who is "The Renekton" of each role?

Neofederalist·Jun 25, 2014·6 votes·1,555 views

I'm curious about what Riot thinks of the ideal balance of each role/lane.

For background, various Rioters have stated that for the state of top lane, Renekton is the bar for what's considered viable. He's got the best laning phase for "viable" top lane champions.

I'm curious about who Riot considers what champions in other roles fill similar bars as Renekton does to top lane, i.e. the baseline that isn't likely to be nerfed itself, but to which other champions should be buffed.

28 Comments

CritkeeperJun 25, 20148 votes

Top- Lee sin

Jungle- Lee sin

Mid- Lee sin

Support- Lee sin

Adc- Caitlyn

MackleDogeJun 25, 20141 votes

This looks right.

MrBuffingtonJun 25, 20149 votes

Top-

Jungle-

Mid-

Support-

Adc-

ftfy :P (Also, Lee Sin adc new meta)

MackleDogeJun 25, 20142 votes

I'll give my opinion on it if you don't mind, I'm no Rioteer (thought I wouldn't mind them hiring me since I'm applying haha) but I think this is an interesting discussion. Only thing is I'm going to make my decision based off of the entire game, not just laning phase, because I feel only including laning phase would be bad for overall game balance and skews the actual state of the game.

Top

Shyvana actually, not Renekton.

Jungle

Lee Sin far and away.

Mid

This is difficult to me. I think that overall right now Lulu is the strongest. But TF and Ziggs are also strong.

ADC

After these recent changes, I'm not sure. But I'm going to say either Lucian or Caitlyn.

Support

Thresh.

NeofederalistJun 25, 20141 votes

I don't think you're wrong in which champions are currently strong, but that wasn't exactly what I was looking for. Renekton beats Shyvanna in lane (he just gets outscaled by her and is more popular in competitive play). He's got the best laning phase for a competitively viable top laner, not necessarily the best overall pick.

My question was more for which champions does Riot see as a good bar ideally, not where the balance is right now.

MackleDogeJun 25, 20141 votes

And today in MackleDoge is an idiot....

My bad man haha, I misread it entirely. In that I can't help then, though it would be interesting to here some Riot perspectives on it, so I hope this thread gets noticed and they answer you.

NeofederalistJun 25, 20141 votes

Not a problem. I'm curious what the community thinks as well.

For ADC it's probably pretty easy. Caitlin has probably the best early game. If there is an ADC who can beat her in lane (controlling for the support players), there'd be a problem, since she's also got probably the worst late game for ADCs as well.

For jungle, Lee/Elise are the top two right now, and I think that's a decent benchmark. The way they are built, typically tanky, the sort of fall off late, so I'd say it's reasonable that they have the best early jungle power.

Mid and support are trickier. In the 4.11 forecast, it looks like they're looking into nerfing Yasuo and Ziggs. Last patch LB lost her silence, and Nid got reworked. So it seems like Lulu does end up being the default.

I also dislike how strong Thresh is early game given the late game power of his lantern.

MackleDogeJun 25, 20141 votes

Personally I think that Riot would do well to improve the state of some of the more traditional supports. Its hard to say anyone competes with Thresh right now, even Morgana is picked in large part because she can counter the hook or flay with Black Shield. I'm not sure if Thresh should be the bar and improve everyone to him, or if he's a little too strong and he should be lowered a bit and then have everyone raised to match if need be.

Hyrum GraffJun 25, 20141 votes

I've seen a not-fed thresh 1v1 a not-fed adc, by chain ccing the adc to death (he may have also had a triforce, I don't remember). IMO, thresh could use VERY small nerfs.

MackleDogeJun 25, 20141 votes

Yea I think he's a bit too strong as well, but I'm not sure how to nerf him without too severely changing his power. Decrease his damage too much and he can't meaningfully do anything in the laning phase. Decrease his utility can only be done by increasing his cooldowns which honestly are already pretty long to begin with especially early. Maybe decrease his base tankiness a tad to see where that puts him?

You have any ideas?

Hyrum GraffJun 26, 20141 votes

Lantern gives a bigger shield, but only shields the person who clicks it?

MackleDogeJun 25, 20141 votes

We seriously hit the embed limit again lol

Anyways, that might be interesting, that way it is really focused onto preserving that single target, but then again I'm not sure it would feel good for the Thresh player if at least Thresh didn't get the shield as well?

Hyrum GraffJun 26, 20141 votes

Actually my first idea was to keep the shield as-is, but make thresh not get it himself. It already has so much utility, why does it need to give thresh a shield too?

The reason I changed my suggestion was that I felt like my original idea would just annoy thresh players who expect the shield - it's a straight-up nerf. By making it a bigger single-target shield, it changes the nature of the ability (and gives it more finesse, instead of raw power, in a fight, especially teamfights).

KSHarrisonJun 25, 20142 votes

Here's my opinion:

Top

Renekton

Jungle

Jarvan IV aggressive / Nunu support

Middle

Yasuo (for the foreseeable future)

Bot

Corki

Support

Leona

All of these champions can change the game but also offer considerable counterplay and/or tradeoffs. I think Twitch (since his nerfs), Draven, and Nami are also possible standards.

Champions who need nerfs are: Shyvana, Jax late game, Lee Sin, Elise, Leblanc, Ziggs, Lulu, Kayle, Ryze, Lucian, possibly Braum and Thresh. I'm on the fence about Morgana, simply because I don't like how her Black Shield hard counters so many things.

I'm also not sure if Orianna should be nerfed or if she should be the standard lol. She would make a good standard, but she offers everything except mobility. I'm not sure if that's healthy in the long run.

Well this is what popped into my head. It's obviously a complex topic so there's probably a lot more to consider.

SilverclawJun 25, 20142 votes

Purely on laning phase strength:

Top - Renekton (Shyvanna being #2)

Jungle - Lee Sin (Elise being #2)

Mid - Ziggs (Yasuo being #2)

ADC - Caitlyn (Lucian being #2, but I'm not 100% certain on that yet)

Support - Thresh (Braum being #2)

MrBuffingtonJun 25, 20142 votes

When you mention a baseline, does it also include champions that should be nerfed down to that level? It just seems strange to me that Renekton should be the baseline for top lane, since, as you mentioned, he has the best laning phase, yet also scales pretty well into late game (recent changes to his ult gives him more tankiness late game), especially if he got ahead in early game, which he usually will. I feel like Shyvana would be a better baseline, since it seems she's a more consistent pick, usually won't crush a lane, but will really rarely lose or fall too far behind.

If we're considering picks similar to how Renekton is in top lane, I'd probably say Renekton top, Lee Sin jungle, LeBlanc mid (even though Riot is sort of trying to nerf her), Caitlyn/Lucian and Lulu/Karma. My reasoning is that these champions will usually win their lanes, but it's more difficult to transition into late game, especially if they're behind (or not far ahead) of their opponents.

NeofederalistJun 25, 20141 votes

Maybe I wasn't clear in the initial post. What I'm going to call The Renekton Bar doesn't have anything to do with overall champion strength, only power in lane. Renekton is The Pick if above all, you don't want to lose your lane.

It's all about early game power, not the current meta or how well they scale.

And I'm less concerned with current actual champion balance than with what Riot sees as a good standard to aspire to.

MrBuffingtonJun 25, 20141 votes

So are you asking about the strongest early game champions? I sort of tailored my list to strong laners anyways, but, I mean, you can, with more ease than most champions, get a lvl 1 first blood in 1v1 with Riven and Yasuo, especially in mid lane where champions are typically squishier and need a few levels to get their spells.

As far as what Riot would consider a good bar, (and I'm still surprised about Renekton top, since he dominates most lanes, seems a little unhealthy):

Top: Renekton (I guess? I would still say Shyvana since I think it's been longer since we've seen a Shyvana nerf than Renekton nerf, but idk)

Jungle: Pantheon - Basically out-duals everyone early. Also he hasn't really been touched as far as nerfs go, (minor changes to his ult that most people didn't even know about, they were more bug-fixes than nerfs imo).

Mid: Orianna - Consistently a strong laner, has been picked in competitive play for a long time, and I can't recall the last Orianna nerf I saw.

ADC: Caitlyn - Same as Orianna, also because Lucian just got a minor nerf and may be looking at a few more in the future.

Support: Thresh - Same as above. I don't think Thresh has been changed too much recently (I think there have been some minor issues, but nothing that screams that the champion is too unbalanced).

Angry MonsterJun 27, 20141 votes

The reneketon bar does not mean that. The ren bar is about overall power curve in the game. it has to deal with power budgets and power peaks and declines.

PorkcchopJun 25, 20141 votes

Top - Renekton Jungle - Lee Sin Mid - Kass ADC - Cait Support - Thresh

Sire HippingtonJun 25, 20141 votes

role != position

Renekton is the Renekton of off-tanks, not toplane. U could hardly compare renekton to jayce or Akaly, as they fill different roles

if u mean position, i would go with what Mr.Buffington said

if it's about lane-dominance, it's always matchup dependent. off-tank beats bruiser and assasins, assasin beats ranged, ranged beats offtank. ranged vs bruiser is rather close and depends on each champ, kog would loose vs jax, but vayne has a relative good chance if the E is timed right. Assasin vs bruiser is also close and usually depends on a close all in early or the jungler and than snowballs either way.

for simply a save laneing, renekton works vs any melee top, ziggs can always farm savely mid, cait got no bad matchup bot, Thresh alaways works as support, and lee can do anything on any position

Doominator10Jun 25, 20141 votes

I believe he was talking about lane dominance, and their is currently no champion in the game that "Wins Lane" by nature of picking that champion against Renekton. Renekton even does well vs the ranged tops like Ryze, Lulu, Jayce if he is played correcty. He can out-sustain their mana trading for hp then all-in when they are low because they are squishy. Harder vs ranged, but the croc still has the advantage. (Source: SoloRenektonOnly)

Cait and Thresh also by default "Win Lane" simply because of their starting kit and items lvl 1-6. Cait beats every other ADC early if played properly and Thresh should support harder than any other Support early if played properly. The closest that comes is Lucian / Morgana.

For mid I would probably say Oriana is the default ("I will win my lane") champion. For jungle its a bit arder since it isn't a lane, but I would still say the default pick would be Lee Sin. (Personally I think Nocturne and Nunu are really up there as well, but for entirely different reasons. Nocturne wins through farm and opportunist ganks. Lee Sin wins through snow balling the lanes. Nunu wins through objectives.)

As to role vs position: The roles are top/ jungle/ mid/ ad/ and supp. It just happens that top/ jungle/ and mid are also the lanes that those roles are typically called for. So yes, in those instances role == position.

Sire HippingtonJul 3, 20141 votes

roles are tank, support, assasin, mage, fighter, offtank etc, as they descripe ur role/job within a teamfight and define ur mid-late strategy.

Position just say on wich lane u play, and therefor determine ur earlygame.

If u play Quin top, u don't have a tank top so u need to adjust the rest of the setup if u want to do well in the late, A kah jungle fills a different role than a maokai jungle...

And i never got huge problems with a proper ranged champ vs renekton top. Ryze isn't that great as he got no escape, but Quin, Karma, Graves, Lulu and even Sivir did work well for me so far

asamuJun 26, 20141 votes

ADC - Cait, since Lucian is above the baseline that they want.

Mid - Orianna? (Ziggs #2 probably)

Supp - Thresh

Jungle - Lee Sin

Angry MonsterJun 27, 20141 votes

lee is not the base line for jungle. Riot has already stated that he has to much and will get hit just like Lucian.

ILoveTiramisuJun 27, 20141 votes

I think you means, "who is the bully in early game of the role".

In midlane, Leblanc and Ziggs, also without silence deals very high damage. Like support, Karma. Like toplaner, Pantheon. Like adc, caitlyn. Like jungler, Evelynn.

BeastlyNigJun 28, 20141 votes

Top - Renekton

Jungle - Lee Sin

Mid - Ziggs

Adc - Lucian

Support - Thresh

Serpents EmbraceJun 28, 20141 votes

I'm really surprised that no one has suggested Syndra as the bar-setter for mid. :\ She's got the same wave-clear power that Ziggs does, and has a long ranged stun, and is a lot more reliable than him because her ultimate is not a skill-shot.