Morello, Meddler, Xelnath, whoever, what do we have to do to prove we need more bans?

The Soraka·Jul 6, 2014·6 votes·1,188 views

You don't want to do anything to related to balance changes anytime soon for any of the toxic champions. So why can't we have more bans?

What proof do you need that will let you give us more bans?

Why are more bans NOT the solution besides "oh well then people have to own more champions to play ranked," they should have to own like 50 champions to play ranked period.

Let us show you who needs to be tamed back by keeping them permabanned in ranked.

You're far too out of touch with the game that the rest of us play.

27 Comments

IlyaK1986Jul 8, 20143 votes

"Oh hey, X has the best Blanka in the world! I mean, it's SICK" "Cool! Can I see him play it?" "Errr, no, because everyone just bans it out against him."

Champs are in the game to be PLAYED. Not to just take up a ban slot. If you need to depend on bans, you're a bad player and should feel bad. Now go away.

KingSmizzyJul 14, 20141 votes

Thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard, go play fiddle mid vs zed and tell me you dont need bans.

Bans are in the game to make champs viable, by banning out their counters, or to fix holes in your team comp, right now thats not what they do. Everyone is too busy banning out champs that end up 1v5ing and winning the game.

IlyaK1986Jul 14, 20142 votes

Don't pick Fiddle into Zed?

KingSmizzyJul 17, 20141 votes

My point, if you use some sense, was that most midlane champions have a hard counter, someone who will absolutly crush them without massive jungle attention. So in order for you to play these midlaners safely you would normally ban your counter. For a long time Zed was the counter to immobile mid laners like lux so if you wanted to play lux you had to ban zed. its an example, dont comment after me claiming you pick lux into zed winning everytime. i dont care, its not the case for everyone else, and its a generalization, and an analogy at that.

MrSc0ttyJul 15, 20141 votes

What about Zed makes fiddle unviable? I'd think having fear and silence to use during Zed's ult would make him pretty obnoxious. Sure he can juke the drain damage but good positioning on fiddles part would invalidate that.

If I played Fidd vs zed id just do what I always do with Fidd: harass and be obnoxious pre six then roam and gank post six.

Sneak DogJul 6, 20142 votes

More bans means more targeted bans and players, especially professional players, would have to get a larger champion pool and you'd see them less on their main champions.

Personally, 6 bans are enough for me. I don't see why I'd need two more.

Remlap1223Jul 7, 20141 votes

I'm sorry but that's BS. You aren't good enough to be professional if you can't play more than 6 champions. I can play at least 3 champions in a certain role, which equals a minimum of 15 champions that I can play well, and I'm bronze.

12talesJul 7, 20142 votes

In the case of roles like jungle, there simply aren't more than 6 champions that are usable at the highest level. If I've got 4-5 bans and I'm blue side, I can ban any four of Elise JarvanIV Evelynn Rengar LeeSin and pick whomever remains, and the enemy jungler might as well not be playing.

It doesn't matter if the enemy jungler can play XinZhao Udyr or whatever - the gap between Lee Sin and Volibear is so freakin' huge that they're going to fail pretty much by default.

People are already doing this with 3 bans. I think it'd suck pretty hard if any role with a small champion pool could just be sniped into irrelevance before the game even began.

Remlap1223Jul 8, 20141 votes

Honestly, the team that is vindictive enough to snipe a role off is not going to succeed, because there are 4 other roles that have now gone unchecked. Sure, your jungler or ADC may not be OP as required to be a LCS champion, but your other lanes now consist of Renekton top, LeBlanc Mid, Leona support, and Lucian ADC. Was gutting jungle really worth it? Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing that there shouldn't be more bans, but let's be frank, you don't deserve to be a LCS player if you can't play multiple champions in a role. If a bronzie like me can do it, but Bjersen for example can't (not saying that he can't, he's just the first Challenger player that comes to mind) then there's vital flaw in the ranked system. The problem isn't the fact of the bans, but it's the fact that the meta is extremely top heavy. If Riot actually makes a more balanced meta and have a somewhat equal amount of good and great champions as not good enough to be played in ranked champions, this problem would evaporate. But no, let's nerf Skarner and gut Sona instead, and leave the same 15 champions to dominate the meta unitl Season 6.

12talesJul 8, 20142 votes

Yes, that would absolutely be worth it.

And again. Back a few weeks ago when Amazing had this happen to him, it's not like he ran out of champions. He ran out of remotely competitive champions, because at the time were literally four. You could play every jungler in the game at the highest level, and you'd still have a rough time jungling against Lee Sin with a top 5 at best jungler.

The issue is that having 4-5 bans creates this dynamic where, if there are only 5-6 viable champions in a role at any given time, blue side suddenly has the power to just screw over one particular player on the enemy team if they so chose. And when you consider the possibility of champions being disabled because of bugs ( Rengar ), reworks ( Skarner ), or just being nerfed into the ground ( LeeSin if most of the people here get their way), it's not really implausible to suspect that competitive champion pools might dip down into that territory at some point in the future.

So - for the sake of red side junglers everywhere. No extra bans.

Remlap1223Jul 8, 20141 votes

But let me ask you this question, why should we have to get stuck with a group of top heavy champions? Trust me, this would be a lot simpler if there were only 6 champions in question that are dominating ranked play right now, you'd just ban them all and the game would be balanced-ish. When gut a single role pre-game, you are fostering a bad habit of extreme inbalance. The main reason why we are at this point of asking for more bans is because the ratio of God Tier champions to everyone else is just high enough to not be balanced through banning, but not populous enough to foster diversity. And since Riot has proven that they aren't getting this crap under control anytime soon, there's only one solution, and that's dropping the banhammer more times. Before Kassadin was reworked, he was almost permabanned in games. Jax was getting pretty damn close to that, and is still hovering around a 80% ban rate, despite what in my opinion is some pretty heavy base stat nerfs.

So here's the question. Why should we have to worry about so many champions who's so overpowered or unbalanced or toxic so much so that we have to ration out bans for specific champions? I often wait to ban the problem champions last to force the other team captain's hand to waste a ban on them, or feel the wrath of Jax or Kassadin. It shouldn't have to come to that point is what I'm saying. Bans are being used as a gotcha game to see who slips up and doesn't ban one of the OP champions atm, and that's not what League is about. The game shouldn't be decided at the champion select screen. So until the balance team gets its crap together (which at this rate is sometime Season 6) we have to resort to drastic measures such as more bans. I'm not saying it's perfect or even a good idea, but it's a necessary evil. It's a choice between the possibility of screwing a lane over, or the guaranteed static champion pool until Riot abandons League. I'm not comfortable with the latter since the main selling point to MOBAs is the ever changing strategies.

With patch 4.10, we're already seeing some new options come in. Marksmen might be coming top lane with the newfound knowledge of the power of Quinn top. Jayce might return top as a result of this as well. But if we don't allow these stubborn and unhealthy champions to warm the bench every once in a while, it will be Renekton top, Lee Sin jungle, Kassadin mid, Caitlyn ADC, and Thresh bot until League dies.

12talesJul 8, 20141 votes

I often wait to ban the problem champions last to force the other team captain's hand to waste a ban on them, or feel the wrath of Jax or Kassadin. It shouldn't have to come to that point is what I'm saying. Bans are being used as a gotcha game to see who slips up and doesn't ban one of the OP champions atm, and that's not what League is about.

What you're describing is literally my favorite part of this game :/

Anyways, re: stagnant champion pools

The following is a non-comprehensive list of champions who have had a dramatic rise to or fall from grace in the past, oh, three or four months. I probably missed some.

Annie Caitlyn Corki DrMundo Gragas Graves Irelia JarvanIV Jax Jinx Karma Kassadin Kayle Khazix KogMaw Leblanc Leona Nami Nidalee Nocturne Pantheon Rengar Ryze Sivir Skarner Soraka Tristana Trundle Twitch MonkeyKing XinZhao

Just sayin'

KingSmizzyJul 14, 20141 votes

I think the list should look more like

Kassadin Khazix Rengar

12talesJul 14, 20141 votes

Nah.

TheKaymonJul 13, 20142 votes

Bans are being used as a gotcha game to see who slips up and doesn't ban one of the OP champions atm, and that's not what League is about.

This is similar to how I feel.

I know it's not easy to directly compare games, but DotA2 has about as many heroes as LoL and they get 5 bans in Captain's Mode. It is structured differently, though, as bans and picks alternate. For reference: http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Game_modes#Captains_Mode

KingSmizzyJul 14, 20141 votes

I honestly think LoL's pick and ban phase is outdated and simply isnt working to provide the best gaming experience LoL can offer. Some of the time I feel like the game is either won or lost because we missed a ban or they let us get a champ

Sneak DogJul 7, 20142 votes

I've listened to commentators in tournaments and often I've heard about professional players needing to practice new champions before they're even able to play them at the level required for the tournaments. Then they need to constantly keep their current champion pool up and they just can't master too many champions at a professional level at any given time. Sure, they can pick up a champion and beat soloqueue with it, but eachother in organized play is a whole different story.

Next to that, there's just certain players that are known for a certain champion (Froggens Anivia, Wickds Irelia, some old examples) and it'd be sad if we'd just have enough bans to never ever see them play their main champion when it's viable.

Earl EulrichJul 7, 20141 votes

i completely agree, more bans could only benefit the game...forcing people to develop broader champion-pools and prepare more strategies, therefor stepping up their game...finally making use of the broad variety of champs and strategies the game offers.

It´s just pointless to have 100+champs in the game if 90%of them aren´t played in "serious" games.

12talesJul 8, 20141 votes

Counterpoint - having fewer bans force people to consider their bans more carefully, and come into pick/ban with a clear plan of what they want to do. Increasing the number of bans reduces the opportunity cost of banning a champions, which encourages players to simply ban the same champions every game because that's not mutually exclusive with whatever strategy they have planned. So, you end up with 3 bans on each side, plus Kassadin and Jax don't exist in this game anymore.

And as an aside, we've seen nearly 50% of the total champions in the game on 4.10 alone.

The Bored FrogJul 12, 20141 votes

Not taking sides here but saying we have seen 50% still means that almost 60 champs havent been seen....

12talesJul 12, 20141 votes

That is an accurate statement.

12talesJul 12, 20142 votes

It's also worth mentioning that the phrase 'competitive' doesn't necessarily do justice to what we're talking about. When 50% of champions are viable in situations where you're competing for seeding at Worlds, or potentially have your career on the line, or stand to gain thousands of dollars if you win - I call that pretty good balance.

Especially when you take into account the number of champs that are intended to introduce players to the game, rather than to bring them success at higher level play (like Garen), or champions who are presently so screwed up that they can't be allowed to be viable (like Poppy), or even champions that are chronically bugged (like Shen or Rengar) - the majority of champions that could potentially compete at the highest level, can.

TheKaymonJul 13, 20141 votes

I don't know if that really is good balance. According to http://www.datdota.com/blog/?p=807 91/102 heroes were picked so far at TI4, which is the equivalent of Worlds. I'd say that, in comparison, ~50% seems a bit underwhelming.

12talesJul 13, 20141 votes

I lack the background information on both dota and that particular tournament to assess what that statistic means and how it should be compared to LoL.

KingSmizzyJul 14, 20141 votes

The fact that Kass and Jax need permabans basically means of the 117 champions left only 4 bans remain. And there are at least double that number of broken champs.

Plus stop thinking about LCS, we play this game too, and there are more of us than them, with the 7 million players world wide I think we deserve a little more consideration, pros will always be pros. We need to enjoy the game as well.

12talesJul 14, 20141 votes

On 4.11? I wouldn't ban either.

Anyways, Kassadin is the only champ I'd consider calling broken at the moment. Braum's gotten smacked down to a more reasonable level, Jax's early game got gutted, LeBlanc lost her silence, Kayle's late game got gutted.. like, maybe Yasuo? Even he got nerfed this patch.

And if some change were being suggested that would benefit competitive but screw over soloq players, I would have issue with that too. This change would be incredibly destructive to a significant demographic of league players, and thus I oppose it.

KingSmizzyJul 14, 20141 votes

I dont know about the openly insulting hardworking members of riot staff, who made this game which we all play and enjoy (when we're not being cheesed by toxic champs).

But I do definitly 100% want more bans in ranked and even in team builder. There are more than double the number of champs in the game since the system was set up and 3 just doesnt cut it anymore.