Have you guys ever considered making a non-marksman champion that specialize in working with a support to compete in bottom lane?
Kinda like how you went on with Quinn, because I feel like Quinn was a great alternative to the usual top lane fighters.
RiotMorello7 votesWe're looking at some methods to allow this experimentally, though I think teams will want the Marksman value somewhere on the team (mid with someone like Corki, or top with someone like Quinn, etc).
Items are our first avenue of exploration here.
hashinshin3 votesHi Morello, I hate the community beta because it's all just a circlejerk but I do have a question...
When making non-ADCs viable bot lane by changing items you are of course referring to nerfing ADC items right?
I think I need a catch phrase for my witticisms.
Limakoko8084 votesHash. Please stop trying to make adcs weaker. They are already weak right now. Very few can actually make it in this meta so stop complaining about them; this isnt season 2. If you want people to take your posts seriously, you are going to have to stop with your bias against anything not melee.
Sincerely everyone
hashinshin3 votesThe war on christmas is real, gay propaganda is real, and ADCs are weak.
The earth is 5000 years old, big business is good for America, and bruisers are the top class right now.
Tortferngatr1 votesWho are, then?
Jingerbeardman5 votesHonesty all the components are already there. As long as the team has a good siege champ (heimer or ziggs as examples) it is possible to get away without even having an ADC. A massive wombo combo team with a Yasuo mid, Malphite top, Wukong jungle, and Nami Ziggs bot lane would do rather well id think. I could also see a support paired with twisted fate doing rather well.
As I said all the right pieces are there. It is just a question of who will be courageous enough to fit them together.
Limakoko8081 votesI agree here. If teambuilder has showed anything its that any comp can work with good teamwork, Botlane is the same way. The problem is anywhere else ppl will dodge without a ranged ad at least somewhere on the map.And for an adc to work anywhere else than bot you are going to need a good team to back you up.
The problem is a duo lane at bot is the best place to put a ranged adc. ESPECIALLY since mid and top turrets are harder to take down. Most adcs have trouble at top because they are too susceptible to tower dives and ganks, and very few ap midlaners would want to switch with an because of bluebuff(could work on purple side).
RiotMorello2 votesThat's awesome if that works out that way. I do think we need to put support for that in though (and items are the way I think can help most).
Jingerbeardman2 votesThat is true, right now mana dependent ap champs could only thrive bot if a Soraka is their support. This is one of the reasons I was disappointed when mana manipulator was removed. If an item were given the ability to increase allied mana regeneration again it would open a bunch of possibilities.
FF12241 votesWhat about an item or ability where a support or someone can "link" with an ally causing a percent of all mana they spend to be deducted by the support instead? I don't see very many downsides considering the mana is still being deducted, I suppose it could get a little insane but that could be fixed by adding a cap at which the link breaks.
Troller1 votesthing is people like playing their own way so its hard to really build a team that works together, i usually play whatever is missing or lacking in my team because people overlook that, like full ap team, i go ad, full ad team i go ap, squishy team, i go tank, tanky team, i go full on damage like zed etc.
Meep Man1 votesI like you called Ziggs and Heim Siege champs cause they are. I kinda wish Siege was a defined role though.
Linna Excel3 votesAP Soraka yo!
We don't need no stinking ADCs when we've got bananas!
Mandaari2 votesI really don't think you're going to make much headway with that until you address the fact that ADCs are OP at pushing compared to every other class.
Just a random thought, but to make APs push turrets harder lategame might you make an AP item with a passive that applies an additional percentage of your AP to turrets?
Theorycraft aside though, I really wanted to try a Cassy/Lulu bot lane since Cassy plays a lot like an ADC and Lulu has an AP Janna shield. Then you went and took away Lulu's AP buff. I want you to know I hold you personally responsible for that :(
Phoenix Kotori 4 votesDamage to a turret is based on your base attack damage plus the higher of your bonus attack damage or 40% of your ability power. It is not affected by any kind of armor or magic penetration
We already deal a % of AP to them.
Also Nashor Tooth and Lichbane both let mages push towers harder, the problem is mage generally never build Attack Speed, so their push power is much slower in nature due to this.
daft inquisitor1 votesYeah, Nashor's Tooth is really more an item for champs like Poppy. Building it on Supports or AP's just feels... dirty. :/
Roaranor3 votesBut Diana and Kayle. :(
daft inquisitor1 votesI consider Kayle a "Champ like Poppy". She's a bruiser that builds AP. Or, rather, can be. Alistar fits into that camp as well.
Mandaari2 votesThat's why I said an additional percentage.
Lichbane is a great item for pushing towers because it can usually sneak its way into a kit without going out of your way. But yeah mages don't build attack speed. Why would they? It doesn't scale with anything in their kit. I'm saying mages need an item that scales their kit normally and can push towers. Or just bump up the existing 40% AP ratio to account for the lack of attack speed on mages.
Phoenix Kotori 2 votesThat's a fair point I could see it being reasonable to up to 45-60% of AP.
And some AP champions benefit from AS due to parts of their kits (some more than others) 
, but AP AS itemization is limited to 
, 
, and *maybe *
thus doesn't really encourage it.
Mandaari1 votesYou also need to take into account the range of those champions. Ask yourself who you'd be comfortable taking shots at a tower with during a late siege. Immediately rule out all melee champions. Kog stands out with 710 range. The next highest is a group with 550 range. Eventually you get down to Teemo's range.
I don't think any item solution should force AS onto a hypothetical AP pusher's build. Thinking back to my original proposal I think that's a bad idea too. At least it is while ADCs don't have to go out of their build path to push towers.
Alternatively find a way to make ADCs worse at pushing towers, like making crit a stronger stat and AS a weaker stat since you can't crit towers. In that case I'd say it's fine to introduce a "buy me to push" item because it's not a "you need to buy me to push while others don't" item. Everybody would be on equal footing.
ItemsGuy4 votesOne disagreement I have re: solo lane AD carries (which tend to scale much harder into lategame than other roles due to the nature of their damage and current AD itemization--such as IE and the like) is that being able to have both the early game power to survive or thrive in a solo lane early to mid game AND having the late game power to still fulfill the "carry" role (which in games such as DotA/2--well, primarily these two specifically--has a very weak early game to balance out their standing of having the best gold -> effectiveness ratio within the roles) while also sucking up solo lane experience instead of just to solo lane farm supports can afford to give seems to be giving them the best of both worlds. Doing this for, well, any role (ex. a support who loses little power without items due to strong base values, yet also has carry-level scaling) seems it would doom them to eventually being gimped once usable strengths are found in their kit.
Fortunately, this hasn't happened with Quinn (whose full damage output relies on staying in melee range for an extended amount of time, and who overall lacks the scaling/steroids of, well, stronger marksmen carries), but it's generally something I'd be wary of.
ProfDrDeath5 votesHmm - I tend to think that, for AD carries to be viable in a solo lane, they should give something up. Meaning, they need to trade part of their late-game strength for early strength. Plus, solo lane AD carries need to have a way to benefit of them getting solo experience. Let's look at prominent examples:
Top lane. Benefits from XP by means of her passive (an important part of her damage), independant of her skill order. Also, has multiple ways to deal with being alone in a long lane (good base MS, good base stat tankiness, Blind, Gap-opener). Trade-offs include sub-standard range, a factor of unreliability, and lack of teamfight strength.
Mid lane. His abilities, combined with Trinity Force, give him good mid-game damage, poke for sieging and a good enough laning phase. Again, his trade-offs lie in the reduced late-game effectiveness due to low base AS and low AS scaling.
Mid lane. Same vein as Corki, with a bigger emphasis on single-target damage.
Also, two other carries that shouldn't be too bad in top lane, at least against melee champions:
Tankiness, Escape, punishes melees for getting close. His sole problems are his rather exorbitant mana costs. Maybe, after the changes he's possibly getting, better for toplane.
Tons of range, as well as two forms of disengage. In theory, leaving her top-lane, out of the action in the lower parts of the map, should allow her to mitigate her mid-game hole. Also, her passive benefits extremely from solo lane XP.
Voliboar3 votesDefinitely.
gave up her duo lane and teamfighting power substantially. Plus when built as an assassin she lacks a major disengage unless she manages to pull off the kill without using Vault and saving it for later. Though she is stellar at applying pressure through split-pushing and has high catching potential when someone is out of position. Due to the high mobility she possesses through Valor.
I'd say Quinn is a very successful attempt at a Marksman that works on a solo lane. Right now she is a really strong champion with defined weakness. I'd say it's only a matter of time before the pro catch on to Quinn since she has a really unique niche and overall very strong when played correctly.
LordOfTheLeague2 votesWe have Ad and Ap caster. We have Ad and Ap bruisers. We have Ad and AP tanks. But we only have Ad marksmen. Could you imagine to create an ap champ that fill the same role as the marksman ? Something with medium burst with really high DPS and good sustain that need to be with a support. (with a dash ofc) I think a champ like cassiopeia should be able to do that. She is an Ap dps imo but is just outclassed by Ad marksman because she has no sustain and her dps source is kind of clunky. Anything to say about that idea ?
Tortferngatr3 votes
Papy Mougeot1 votesSorry karthus is not close to what I want for an AP marksman. His ranged dps skill (Q) is not really a big part of his gameplay. What I want is really a heavy DPS oriented Ap.
ProfDrDeath2 votesDo you even play Karthus?
WereScrib2 votes
Derp. The AP that plays like a marksman.
Winged Hussars2 votes is such a great assassin enabler that pairing her with someone with high pre-6 kill potential tends to work out really well. 
is the best in my experience. You just have to co-ordinate and you will NEVER be able to find someone to do it in solo queue. Teambuilder was made for this kind of thing.
Drakonitus1 votesWell if you play Katarina and Morgana you probably will win bot lane.
But them everything is about competitive. If people start playing a non-marksman champion in bot lane, them this can happen...
Sonimus1 votesI recall Yasuo-Nami lane still being very powerful in the hands of people who know how to run it.
Hyrum Graff1 votesYasuo-Malphite. So wombo. Very Combo.
Atyres1 votesI thought the point of the game was to be able to play wherever you wanted with whatever champ ._. but it seems like nerfs and changes have stopped that sentiment. Why can't we have a team with no marksman? Shouldn't that be possible? I feel like marksman have been a must have on a team for a bit to long personally =/. Not saying I want them gone, just that they seem to be the only class in the game that is a "must have" for the team.
Sire Hippington1 votesThere are plenty options, u just need to find a team that can adjust to not haveing an adc, or having the adc doing a sololane.
I had alot great games with adc mid or top, and even jungle.
I also had massive stomps playing support+fighter or assasin bot, and i won alot games with mage+support bot aswell.
If most people wouldn't be such meta sheeps and cry as soon as something isn't the exact same way their used to, u could do alot of crazy stuff and win. U just need ur entire team behind the idea and understand that u need a different playstyle/strategy to succeed.
With support+fighter/assasin for example, u need a very early focused teamcomp, get ur jungler around bot for early towerdives and abuse the fact that the enemy marksman won't exist for the first ~20 min of the game if u do it right. U need to roam allot and counterjungle bot there ur lane will be much stronger in early fights than the enemy botlane
U can also pick kog-ap or ez-ap botlane, even kayle or teemo might work(their range is a bit low though)