Hey Riot fix botlane please

Kythers·Dec 31, 2016·142 votes·6,210 views

Fucking Heroes of the Storm is more fun than League right now, seriously this is embarrassing.

There is no winning strategy in botlane. You can't play aggressive because you instantly die to tp/jungle. You can't play passive because you don't gain an advantage and die to 4 man dive anyways. And more importantly than any of this, it's just not _fun _ anymore. Games feel completely out of your control. Botlane is now just another epic jungle camp, and the game won't be fun until this is fixed.

I don't care if your fix makes the LCS boring and stale, it already is anyways. Please fix your game so the actual players can enjoy it.

139 Comments

Keylight XDDec 31, 201656 votes

They need to buff towers plain and simple. Add hp and attack speed to towers pls.

Umbra IoniaDec 31, 201645 votes

And remove first blood tower. Srly who think that was a good idea?

Papa AndreiDec 31, 201615 votes

Make towers slow on hit would be nice

Nameless VoiceDec 31, 20162 votes

Wouldn't really affect divers with lots of mobility, though.

ZerenzaDec 31, 201614 votes

That's a good thing, it discourages dives from champions that can't escape but doesn't ruin the playstyle of champions that were built to. It would make Hecarim a little less strong along with Shyvana and other Psuedo Diver's who can only dive right now due to tower's being really weak.

ZT XperimentorDec 31, 20163 votes

'Grounded' would be better, it'd discourage all those hyper-mobile champions from diving repeatedly at least.

MrryZDec 31, 20166 votes

Also fuck over an entire subclass of champions

ZT XperimentorDec 31, 20164 votes

Because being dived every minute from the beginning is fun right? Riot has already shown multiple times they don't care if they negate an entire class of champions; especially with their 'rotation' design philosophy now.

ZerenzaDec 31, 20165 votes

Diver's exist because some champions are way to safe under tower, most of those champions being champions that can farm efficiently and outscale. In addition, champions such as that (an example being Gangplank) run the risk of making games take much longer than usual and becoming hyper carries once they get to that state.

Diver's are a necessary evil similar to assassins, we need them to help balance the game. Without them classes of champions would be much more overpowered than they already are.

ZT XperimentorDec 31, 20161 votes

Assassins & marksmen, nothing new; however I've also said marksmen need nerfed along with the assassins. 'Divers' are just an alternative name for assassins given that they're just aiming to nuke the adc first; and should also be tuned back.

AnidanJan 1, 20174 votes

Assassins and marksmen, what? You think they're the ones that are way too safe under tower? My boy, you have got a lot to learn about the absurdity of diving some mages and bruisers. Allow grounding to be implemented on towers, good luck ever ganking that Riven, or Vel'koz, or Viktor, Annie, Ori, lolKayle, Swain, and so many more.

Also, divers tend to be bruisers, not assassins...

ZT XperimentorJan 1, 20171 votes

Yeah because it's absurd when caitlyn shoves you behind your own tower thanks to her traps. Also why would you tower dive a riven? That's asking for suicide. At least you can try to bait out a mage's crowd control skillshot, that'll have a cast animation giving you time to dodge it.

Bruisers have always been a problem; they have a mix of durability, damage, mobility, crowd control, and utility. Sure they may be melee range only, but thanks to mobility items & more allied methods of transportation, the close range combat isn't as much of a limitation anymore. Due to the burst damage of marksmen, only bruisers can survive long enough to kill them; on the flip-side bruisers have the damage & cc to kill them while tanks don't have enough before being killed themselves. By nature of bruisers being able to build defensively or offensively, they've had several balance issues over the years from abusing so many items across the board.

It's not a matter of being unable to gank, it's that generalist champions edge out too many of the specialized ones. Where has xerath & cassiopiea been? They aren't needed because other champions can do their jobs better and on-top of other tasks.

AnidanJan 1, 20173 votes

Well, what's happening with generalists vs. specialists is actually a direct problem of League's design philosophy wherein every champion is generally a decent pick every game (in pubs, assuming they aren't horribly undertuned) - everyone becomes generalists. This problem is further magnified by people complaining that certain champions can't do anything when they're behind or do too much when they're ahead. Kunkka, for example is a good generalist pick in DotA2 so you can get away with spamming him (just ask !Attacker, worked well for him), but just try to spam someone like Lone Druid or Phantom Lancer (he got buffs, so he isn't kinda crap now, yay!), it won't end well. But you can spam over half the roster of League and be just fine because everyone is able to fit in pretty well because of the rather generalist design philosophy of League.

A champion can't be useless when behind in League, and this results in utility even for champions whose main goal is damage. But a champion also can't be too good when ahead, which means everyone is averaged out in terms of overall power (barring over- or undertuning). This results in situations in League wherein once you have enough champions on the roster, the specialists will be phased out unless they're overtuned. This is a game of generalists. The game is designed with generalists in mind.

Just remember: Any time a specialist is strong, they get nerfed down because they're doing their specialization too well. With that in mind, why the hell would I want to choose them when I know that as soon as they do their role better than the generalists, they'll be nerfed until their average power level, even for their role, is the same? You're right in saying that generalists edge out the specialists, but it's long past time to blame the generalists - it's on the people pumping them out.

UrPalAlJan 1, 20172 votes

Uh, what? The assassin update was a nerf across the board for the vast majority of assassin's. On top of that, the marksmen class is regarded as the weakest and least enjoyable role at he moment. You can look at my match history, I play neither assassin nor marksmen, but I can at least recognize they are weak, especially marksmen.

Just about every single pro at the moment is complaining about the state of the marksmen class, just take one look at the front page of reddit (the community that Riot actually listens to, this is coming from someone who enjoys both communities.)

Xela SyabDec 31, 20164 votes

It isn't a bad idea in theory, essentially forces good plays and teamwork early on and objective control which is all that the game is about.

MrStealYoGanksDec 31, 20161 votes

Yeah remove the incentive to push objectives....

Umbra IoniaJan 1, 20171 votes

Isn´t enough incentive take a tower which doesn´t respawn? The game is around take towers you don´t need incentive.

MrStealYoGanksJan 7, 20171 votes

These changes push teams to carefully consider whether it’s worth sacrificing gold and tempo if they want to opt for the path of least resistance, rather than defaulting to laneswapping in every situation

Or we can go back to lane swapping becoming the default strat again, which was annoying as hell and were practically no repercussions for teams that chose to swap. Ever since the change in high and low elo it's become less of a go-to strategy.

Unless you're saying lane swapping should be meta enough to warrant reverting the change, curious as to why you'd think that would be healthy for the game.

Fondling GemsJan 1, 20172 votes

I would not agree with attack speed as that would make csing harder for champions with low attack speed, and most of them already tend to have trouble last hitting since they need to hit casters twice.

I do agree with higher overall stats for turrets though, especially defensive.

JaxeloDec 31, 201629 votes

SwarovskoDec 31, 201627 votes

"I don't care if your fix makes the LCS boring and stale, it already is anyways" OH BABY LET'S FUCKING GO

AnidanJan 1, 20175 votes

Them's fightin' words that I like to see.

Watching this whole thing from an outsider's perspective is the best way to enjoy the Players vs. LCS fight.

Joseph GladstoneDec 31, 201615 votes

but heroes of the storm is a good game

ModAcademy KaynDec 31, 201618 votes

It's what Socialism would look like if it was a game.

AnidanJan 1, 20174 votes

As a Socialist, I am okay with this.

NuparuDec 31, 201614 votes

Just revert the jungle changes from last season. Make it possible to punish the enemy jungle if they spend so much time bot lane.

And reduce Rift Herald's tankiness early game so it's a reasonable objective to 2v2 over. (It also needs to be active during teamfights, idk why it's not, totally stupid that it's completely useless if you have a teamfighting/not tryndamere top laner)

But Riot's not going to revert the jungle changes. That's almost completely invalid as an option (because Riot doesn't revert shit, they'll nerf a bunch of jungles instead sometime within the next 2-3 patches I bet.) They'll probably just completely kill the camp experience and then everyone who's not the golden five junglers ( LeeSin Hecarim Ivern Zac ) will all be complete dog shit and then these five will be even further cemented into the meta.

There's no good solution for this shit at the moment. If they add fortification to bot, the meta will still be to camp them because tank top laners don't get jungle attention because it's pointless. If they nerf jungle experience, the jungle will just become worse as all the diversity of it will die horribly (and none of the problem characters will be affected except maybe Vi and Hecarim, and that's a strong maybe.) If they reduce the impact of Dragon, it'll be still more useful than Rift Herald.

They need to make a sweeping change to fix this bot-centered-clown fiesta meta, because the issues lie at the center of their design of both the jungle and the map objectives. Something needs to change at it's fundamentals.

AirKingNeoDec 31, 20162 votes

I think the jungle is fine but I feel that XP should be lowered slightly and also XP from kills should be downed down slightly. Also junglers aren't camping bot, they're usually camping mid or top.

Herald's buff being splitpush is completely fine. Otherwise I agree with the rest.

Fortification being added to bot doesn't do much when 4 mans bot post 10, which is way after fortification ends. Top laners do get jungle attention. Heck, you're supposed to camp top so they can win top and start roaming. They spike much earlier so they can put their opponent behind much easier and can snowball the team much easier.

S0LST0RMERDec 31, 201613 votes

LCS in a Nutshell
>> farm for 30 minutes >> late game everyone groups and are at a stand still for 10 minutes doing nothing >> some retard gets caught out >> they lose the game

Lisa BabeDec 31, 201612 votes

Have my support.

Supreme Senpai69Jan 1, 20173 votes

That's right, take all his Janna s

General Esdeath Dec 31, 201610 votes

I'm still upset they nerf tp's channel time instead of making it only longer to wards or make it so you can only tp to tower/minions.

ExalomaniacDec 31, 20165 votes

Before the TP nerf getting 4-manned was rare because you'd often get 5-manned instead.

ZeusyDec 31, 201610 votes

This isnt a botlane problem. This is a result of shifting the top power from mid to jungle. Its across the map problem.

CarameI FrappeDec 31, 20167 votes

As a Support main, I can tell you without a doubt that whoever wins bot lane (getting kills / getting tower first / having jungler camp your rivals / ect.) will very likely win the game overall. Bot has 2 players, and if they get the tower down or get fed, they can just roam and ruin other people's lanes hence why 4 man bot clown fiestas happen constantly in bot lane ... because it's a secured way of getting early advantages.

What's also bot? Dragon. By getting bot destroyed, the enemy team can secure a free dragon and / or get a free tower. Not to mention because towers are weak as crap, tower dives are always a thing even if the support is tanky (as a Leona main, even I can't stop 4 people from diving my ADC under tower and we're both likely to die). I blame Riot trying to shift the meta in favor of junglers and not updating other stuff like towers. Give too much power to a role where you're roaming 24 / 7 and keep everything else the same and you're going to see some ugly results.

AirKingNeoDec 31, 20165 votes

"Buut but but ad carries are so strong right now!! Look at Caitlyn, sub 53% winrate!! It's totally not inflated by the fact every other ad carry sucks! Also adc is a shit role because everyone 4 man dives bot."

How can the boards circlejerk that AD carries are so broken while also saying they suck and the 4 man bot lane gank is "common". (I barely see it happen.)

Considering 4 man ganks are happening post 10 minutes there's nothing regarding fortification (which bot tower lacks) causing it though bot tower should still have it back. So is the problem with the ADC class being weak? The support champions (it isn't, no way)? The ADC player (I don't think these have changed)? The support player (autofill)? Junglers being broken (as if they weren't before)? Mages still being broken?

Realistically, the AD carry champions need buffs. If their items are buffed I might as well play Aatrox as an ADC abusing that potentially. I actually liked the idea of Armor Pen on ADCs because it made them clearly earlygame based and fall off later. Except the problem was they got Cleaver and LDR so there was no fall off. If cleaver was made melee only and LDR was nerfed (like it should have been), I feel armor pen could help make the role more diverse by making MF and Draven viable without overbuffing their kit.

As for Ziggs APC bot lane, that should stay. It adds to diversity and I'd love him to be balanced around the role.

Remlap1223Dec 31, 201610 votes

I don't mind the idea of APCs going bot, but the clown Fiesta has to go. Diversity hasn't been this bad since Season 4 because of this, and hasn't been this unfun or cheesy since preseason 6.

AirKingNeoJan 1, 20171 votes

The clown fiesta isn't happening.

Remlap1223Jan 1, 20173 votes

I've got 30 ranked games of evidence to the contrary.

I've got data showing a tower d u n k i n g APC being a viable replacement for an ADC in challenger that says otherwise.

BIH DiamondDec 31, 20161 votes

You are the first smart/good player I've seen so far on these forums(boards and reddit).

Seriously, if adcs are so weak right now why do we still have them EVERY game? When every other class of heros is weak we don't seem them played this much. If you think adcs are weak, THEN DON'T PICK THOSE CHAMPS BOT LANE. I seriously want to see what happens if they were to take a tank/mage/fighter bot lane instead of an adc. They would get destroyed. Why? because adcs are fucking perfectly fine right now

AirKingNeoJan 1, 20171 votes

Why do we have them? They're a requirement. What other class can deal DPS damage for sieging, killing tanks, and monster slaying? Because you can't replace ADC. People have and it works. Ever heard of of BOT LANE ZIGGS?

ADCs are so perfect right now. That's why Freeze thinks they suck. That's why Imaqtpie thinks they suck. That's why Hashinshin thinks they suck. That's why Uzi thinks they suck. That's why the general consensus of the League of Legends subreddit thinks they suck. ADC is such a strong class that's why only 5 ADC have a pickrate ABOVE 10%.

If ADC is strong, explain this shit right here. http://plays.tv/video/58673c1badcadbbe5a/her-only-armor-item-was-sunfire-cape-50-armor- No damage, runs out of mana from attacking Poppy.

BIH DiamondJan 1, 20171 votes

Why do we have them? They're a requirement. What other class can deal DPS damage for sieging, killing tanks, and monster slaying?

So in other words, they're not useless and weak?

People have and it works. Ever heard of of BOT LANE ZIGGS?

Ziggs is literally broken and I still never even see him my games. Hardly a perfect example.

Here's a quote from the best solo que player ever: Description: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVtdB8t3Qn8&feature=youtu.be

When you're too fast https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDtaIljwH7M&feature=youtu.be

"The ADC crying this season is bullshit, if you look at Deft he is 2nd in Korean soloqueue and carry. If you pick Ezreal, Jinx, Twitch you can carry yourself. The problem is that ADC takes 3 core items, but people in soloqueue are bad and can't last until then. Soraka mains that claim she takes skill because you have to land your starfall and silence are delusional." - Apdo

You know what's funny? this was late s6. Shows that adcs bitch every fucking season

ADC is such a strong class that's why only 5 ADC have a pickrate ABOVE 10%.

Uh what does this have to do with anything? Literally in 98% of the games played there is an adc champion. Are you trying to say adcs are never picked? Because they are lmao

If ADC is strong, explain this shit right here. No damage, runs out of mana from attacking Poppy.

ahh yes, the reddit kids who know nothing about the game. I'll explain it.

Poppy is broken. Hardly any champ right now can kill her that fast
Draven is 2-3, behind, while poppy is 5-3 and has 2 levels on him. ADCs aren't meant to 1v1 anyone in the first place, yet you want him to shit on a relatively fed Poppy? Lol
Why don't you bring up how he fucking 2-3 shot the lucian who is 2-1 -3 and probably won lane? He also destroyed the diana who has 2 lvls on him! WTF and you want to call this clip an example of weak adcs are? So you show me a clip of an adc who is behind and they're shitting on people?

This is exactly why reddit = place full of silvers

KythersJan 1, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=BIH Diamond,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zmOtN0Jh,comment-id=000e000100000000,timestamp=2017-01-01T05:13:19.289+0000) This is exactly why reddit = place full of silvers

Can you stop posting, it's honestly cringe as hell. You're insulting silver players while having gold s6, pretending you know shit. Stop shitting up my thread with your "muh reddit", you're exactly what you're insulting.

AirKingNeoJan 1, 20171 votes

No ADC are and pretty useless. They're just required and you have to hope they hit 4 items and can "do something".

Ziggs isn't broken. His winrate hasn't spiked.

That was late SEASON SIX. NOT SEASON SEVEN, BUT SIX, BEFORE ADC BECAME DUMPSTER ROLE. Congrats, you brought up something irrelevant!

ADC have to be picked. Just people are ONLY picking 5 of them, 13 others are ignored. That's shitty diversity. Keep in mind 2 of the 5 have bad winrates.

I didn't think rank had much to do with game knowledge. I'm a silver-gold player yet I know more than most golds. Lucian was killed with help. Diana was at low health and Draven happens to be a champion that hurts squishies meanwhile Diana has no armor items. So Draven is doing exactly what he should be except hurting Poppy. You were gold last season but you have game knowledge of a Silver V player. That's pretty sad.

BIH DiamondJan 4, 20171 votes

Ziggs isn't broken.

This right there shows you're bad

Looked you up, can confirm

AirKingNeoJan 4, 20171 votes

He isn't broken. He's strong and poorly balanced, but he's not broken because he lacks teamfight and monsterslaying DPS.

BIH DiamondJan 5, 20171 votes

2 shotting towers isn't broken 2k17

AirKingNeoJan 5, 20171 votes

We didn't think so 3 months ago. Can't go back now.

BIH DiamondJan 5, 20171 votes

Who's we? He's always been busted, people just found out recently. Balance doesn't change just because it's unknown of how strong something is, otherwise tank yasuo should've never been nerfed