Boards›Gameplay

Talons stats

R Æ··43 votes·5,730 views
Champion.gg - Talon Middle Stats, Builds, Runes, Masteries and Counters

Talons stats are horrible, meddler, my great friend meddler. I get where you come from with talons rework. But he's lacking aaalott right now. I mean a lot. You mentioned in talons update direction that you would increase his burst window. But you said most won't notice it. Talons old playstyle was a snowball assassin. I'd rather have a useless passive and a blink than the clunky kit he has now. There are even visual bugs with some of his skins. You guys took him, butchered him. And forgot him again. Meddler please look at talon for the sake of all talon mains and the people who hate it. Go look at his stats in champion.gg. please. He's is very weak right now. I just don't get the reason for his rework. Only the people who played talon cared about him. And no one complained about him. But now there are many complaints about talon. I know there are next to no chances of a revert of his rework. I encourage you to think it over. His kit is very buggy. Only a few people (maybe 200) at the most of talon players like the rework, but still complain about it. I've head no one on Reddit or my games with talon (I have about 50 now) say talons okay now. Please think about buffing q range or scale w to lessen the delay. Recap. No one cared about pre - rework talon. His stats are garbage right now. And I really encourage you to please either think about reverting or buffing talon.

You're good friend -Reaper

166 Comments

Ralanr18 votes

I agree that Talon could use some love, but I don't agree that he needs his rework reverted.

Basically what Talon does now is just snowball really hard and fall off when people start grouping up. His roaming potential is meant so that he can set back enemy lanes/help his own laners snowball.

Personally I feel he could use some MS buffs (his base MS is terrible) and maybe make it so he doesn't need to AA to proc his bleed. Also potentially giving his bleed GW.

Doseqis1 votes

I just think for the GIANT BLEED it was hyped up to be in it's pretty mediocre. I think if he gets the bleed on you that should be it you are now dead.

Either Riot needs to give it more damage or a let talon blink to a bleeding target or something.

Ralanr6 votes

That's why I feel the bleed should cause GW since getting healed pretty much nullifies it.

So all an ADC needs to do is pop heal if you somehow activated the proc. Considering the counterplay to even getting proced in the first place, I don't think there should be a way out of the bleed damage. At least not so easily.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

item 3071 makes up for the MS issues. And item 3142 allows you to temporarily ignore any MS issue altogether.

I've found rushing item 3071 over item 3142 to be more beneficial to him so he's doing more for his team while also getting the speed boost he needs to land crit Q while also being more tanky--on no cooldown.

Ralanr1 votes

I just run ghost instead of flash.

Squey2 votes

or be like most talons and just take stormraiders surge

Grimspeake10 votes

Talon sucks so bad i cant even play him anymore

Astôlfo10 votes

Gotta love how the assassin rework was nothing more than gutting assassins because crappy players QQ'd.

Oakleaf Ranger7 votes

IDK maybe revert the MS nerfs?

GigaPube7 votes

"clunky" oh boy theres that word, yet again. word of the year apparently. you dont like something about the game? call it clunky, everyone will understand. everyone will rally with you

some other tips for future reworked champion complainers, as evidenced in just this post

  • address it to a popular rioter that everyone knows, especially meddler, hes on the boards the most
  • pretend to understand and/or be relatable with the rioter or the readers, like "i get where you come from"
  • speak in the past tense as if its too late to save him so its easier to feel sorry for the state of the champion "you butchered him. forgot him again"
  • back up your argument with anything other than your own words. especially useful if you just mention a website domain so other people have to do the work.
  • speak. for. everyone. "Only the people who played talon cared about him. And no one complained about him. But now there are many complaints"
VoidWaIker3 votes

{quoted}

"clunky" oh boy theres that word, yet again. word of the year apparently. you dont like something about the game? call it clunky, everyone will understand. everyone will rally with you

some other tips for future reworked champion complainers, as evidenced in just this post

  • address it to a popular rioter that everyone knows, especially meddler, hes on the boards the most
  • pretend to understand and/or be relatable with the rioter or the readers, like "i get where you come from"
  • speak in the past tense as if its too late to save him so its easier to feel sorry for the state of the champion "you butchered him. forgot him again"
  • back up your argument with anything other than your own words. especially useful if you just mention a website domain so other people have to do the work.
  • speak. for. everyone. "Only the people who played talon cared about him. And no one complained about him. But now there are many complaints"
  1. Makes sense doesn't it? If you were to make a boards post addressed to riot wouldn't you address it to the person most likely to see it?
  2. I mean, I also got where riot was coming from. They just really fucked up in the numbers department.
  3. I mean, given that OP was speaking about something that happened in the past, the past tense makes sense and riot has done nothing to show that they haven't forgotten him
  4. So what your saying is, don't back up your arguments with facts. You've never been in a debate before have you?
  5. In this case OP is on r/talonmains and its respective discord a lot so speaking for everyone here isn't to bad given that he knows what most people who talk about its problems are and the 200ish people he mentioned is pretty accurate given the known information once again from people who have spoken about how the feel about new Talon.
GigaPube2 votes

i agree. im just making fun of him and many other people for making posts where they either assume we've all read and/or been exposed to the same information they have, or that they assume we already agree to a large extent, so they feel they have much less to say than what is actually necessary to get their point across to every single person reading their post. you could make this post in r/talonmains and circlejerk your riot hate with your internet buddies all you want, but how do you expect to draw sympathy by telling people meddler is wrong for the millionth time, calling talon"clunky" which is an overused word by people who are too lazy to write what they really wanna say or are not intelligent enough to do so, and backing this up with meaningless numbers that they cbf even trying to explain or give context to

Ibn La Ahad6 votes

Nobody will listen as we are few, and Riot only follows and takes good care of what's being mostly picked. Who wouldda thought Talon would drop to 44% or less win ratio with 1.5% pick ratio? the old talon was balanced, and easily countered, now he doesn't scale at all, he's slow, clunky, and can barely get a kill unless you perform the full combo then apply the passive.

Riot gave him a fun mechanic with gives him situational mobility yet doesnt provide any other source of dmg, passive or utility. "remember the old E? blind, slight slow, dmg amplifier".

As much as I love talon, I'm 100% sure he'll never be buffed or changed in the next 6months- year

NineTailedMystic2 votes

the old talon was balanced

You mean how you either snowballed in lane and instantly deleted anyone you blinked to while doing a shit ton of AoE in teamfights or got put behind in lane and was useless?

Kosm1K3 votes

and now he can't even do that

The Truman Show5 votes

rip my main. haven't played him but two times from date of rework.

Blåbæret5 votes

Talon was better before. The new one just sucks in general.

The Deckowner4 votes

I like playing new Talon, running around the map like a mad man is definitely a lot of fun, but you lost the ability to actually kill the squishies unless they fuck up tremendously. He did get some great ratios on his abilities, but those numbers don't really mean anything if you can't actually apply these dmg before you get killed. Unlike Leblanc who also got similar delayed burst in exchange of extra dmg, Talon doesn't really have a free get out of jail card and it is much harder for him to apply his damage. He is kind of like Teemo right now, at best only an annoyance to the enemy team.

Kosm1K2 votes

Seriously. Once it gets to the point that the enemy team is grouping, I just use all the ms I get from the lethality items, mobi boots and youmous to run around the map taking towers. There's not much else he can do because his time to kill window is so huge right now, that an adc can literally 2shot heal their hp back with lifesteal and warlords. No amount of grievous wounds from ignite or mortal reminder actually does anything since the amount of heal is huge as fuck.

Handin Out Naps4 votes

Welcome to the club, don't worry being useless only hurts for a bit.

THE RlVER KlNG4 votes

Tahm's doing worse, but whenever I talk about it I get downvoted to hell despite concrete numerical evidence.

Meep Man1 votes

It's because of Tahm's potential being so god damn high when the team he is on is a coordinated machine. Also, usually asking for buffs to a champion your Summoner Name is usually just makes you seem like a OTP wanting for their main to get buffed. Look at Malicious Metal for example. He is a beloved Mordekaiser player that most on the Boards like, but when he asks for buffs, he usually receives some negative reactions for it.

THE RlVER KlNG3 votes

And 'Cutthroat Reaper' asking for buffs to Talon is okay then?

Or 'The Darkin Blade' asking for buffs for Aatrox?

And I don't know what you're smoking but Malicious gets upvotes just by existing.

InivtesPreeze2 votes

Tahm is fucking cancer, that's why.

Zero fun to play versus. I don't give a shit if he's bad. He's antifun.

THE RlVER KlNG3 votes

Ok, that's your opinion, but the fact is he's shit and you disliking him doesn't mean he should be left in the gutter.

Downvote a guy who's passionate about his main because you harbor irrational hatred.

Sylas Dr3gb0urn31 votes

[deleted]

THE RlVER KlNG1 votes

Do you have anything better to do with your life

RcGjWO640w3 votes

I mean, the meta assassins got nerfed, which was the point of the rework, really.

Penns29 votes

Implying there were any meta assassins lul

RcGjWO640w3 votes

I wouldn't really have called Talon meta, but he was a huge problem balance-wise.

R Æ4 votes

I don't think it was that big of a balance problem. He did all ad dmg. And if you stacked armor he'd do nothing to you till late game when talon had armor pen. Yea he deleted sauishies. But he did die with them most of the time

Doseqis8 votes

I don't think so, he did his job as an assassin crazy i know.

I don't get why riot has a problem with an Assassin killing an ADC instantly if that's all they can do ADCs get to pretty much kill everyone in teamfights so why not have some sort of real threat to them

Ralanr7 votes

Fairness.

Dying before you realized what happens doesn't really feel fair or feel like much of a learning experience. It felt like the only way you could play around a good assassin is if he fucked up royal.

Now personally I feel that they were successful with this, but forgot to consider just how powerful their intended targets were at this time.

RcGjWO640w12 votes

This.

When you're a fed ADC, you're doing well, playing safe, warding and all-of-the-sudden an enemy assassin comes out of a bush and instakills you before you can even flash, then that's a HUGE gameplay problem. That's extremely toxic to play against since there's no counterplay to it. It doesn't matter how well you play, the moment you step off of fountain, some random assassin can dash onto you and instakill you before you can humanly react.

Before the rework, when assassins got fed, that's all they did was just instakill squishies over and over with zero counterplay. You can't CC them when it's physically impossible to hit the button fast enough.

Troll for Trump7 votes

But that's the POINT of an assassin. Get in, kill a primary target, get out. The problem lies with the CONCEPT of assassin.

Same thing with ADCs. They're supposed to do a bunch of dmg and basically all be unstoppable monsters lategame. Nothing can stand up to them.

It is kinda like a rock paper scissors type of thing. ADC mains hate assassins, assassins hate (juggernauts/tanks), juggernaut/tanks hate ADCs.

But, because an ADC is required every game, you will end up with a lot more ADCs than things of any other class (you don NEED a tank top, or an assassin mid, but always NEED a marksman ADC)

Divewing2 votes

Except that concept has changed somewhat. It's still about taking out priority targets, but on a more macro focused scale, assassins were given the tools to heavily punish carelessness, and he have the tools/tricks to outplay a squishy in the 1v1.

I'll use Talon as an example since I'm very familiar. Before rework it was 7/10 times a case of sitting on the keyboard and unloading literally everything into an ADCs face. Now it's about ambushing with unique pathing (assassins path), proccing the passive, then ulting BUT HOLDING THE STEALTH TO WAIT FOR COOLDOWNS. I have not had trouble with new talon at all because I use my stealth, I don't mash it to get quick damage off because if I'm not ahead it won't kill anyway. I've also given up ignite for ghost because if I don't proc my passive no amount of ignite true damage will compensate.

Lastly I want to bring up picking Talon. Even as a guy who's played a pretty noteworthy amount of Talon, I don't first pick him. He's a pick I save if I'm 4th/5th in line, and if the team composition allows it. He is somewhat niche among assassins, so he has to picked as such.

RcGjWO640w2 votes

You really have to look at things from a gameplay perspective.

At the end of the day, League of Legends is a GAME and GAMES are intended to be fun. Challenges are supposed to have counterplay and opportunities to win. Most of the community had determined a while ago that dealing with a fed assassin isn't fun. When you feel helpless, you're not having fun, you're just getting frustrated.

MisterJulia3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Run Down Mid,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zjdxWghY,comment-id=00020000000000010000000000000001,timestamp=2016-12-12T23:54:08.277+0000)

You really have to look at things from a gameplay perspective.

At the end of the day, League of Legends is a GAME and GAMES are intended to be fun. Challenges are supposed to have counterplay and opportunities to win. Most of the community had determined a while ago that dealing with a fed assassin isn't fun. When you feel helpless, you're not having fun, you're just getting frustrated.

dealing with any fed champion is not supposed to be fun , that's the whole point of being fed and among all the assassins Talon had the most counterplay if fed : you always know who is he going for, you know where he's going to land, he will porbably die after engaging, the goal of any Talon was to take someone down with hil cuz once you engage with Talon you are most likely dead, and if any ADC builds a single one defensive Item Talon can no longer one shot them, they can build A sterak's gage and 1V1 Talon if they want, the current Talon can't 1V1 an ADC even if he builds full ad and I guess that's what the ADC players want : the power to build full AD and not die when you're caught out of position.

PermabannedGaren3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Run Down Mid,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zjdxWghY,comment-id=00020000000000010000000000000001,timestamp=2016-12-12T23:54:08.277+0000)

You really have to look at things from a gameplay perspective.

At the end of the day, League of Legends is a GAME and GAMES are intended to be fun. Challenges are supposed to have counterplay and opportunities to win. Most of the community had determined a while ago that dealing with a fed assassin isn't fun. When you feel helpless, you're not having fun, you're just getting frustrated.

"Losing isn't fun".

You don't say?

Kosm1K2 votes

Technically League is an Esport now. It's in the same vein as soccer and football. Sure it's supposed to be fun, but as a sport there will always be a time where you're frustrated that you can't do anything because their strategy is specifically to take you out.

RcGjWO640w1 votes

If there exists a strategy to "take you out" in any game, sport, whatever you want to call it, with little to no counterplay and you get fucked by it simply because its your "designated counter", then you don't end up with a sport at all. The outcome of a match may as well be flipped on by a coin. At the end of the day, it would be the team with the most counters that wins, by that logic.

Fortunately, that's not how games work and even in "counter" scenarios, counterplay exists to test the skills of the players. A "counter" should never be a "I win because I picked this strategy or champion", it should ALWAYS be a "I have the advantage, now you have to play better to beat this advantage."

Assassins dealing 4k burst one shots is not an advantage, it's a hard counter.

Anyone with any remote respect to game design and balance understands this.

Kosm1K2 votes

so its ok an adc can get full hp with 2 autos? Because that's what all the lifesteal items and keystone do, making any burst negligible. ADCS always having the advantage in that regard is bs.

Elikain1 votes

Assassins can still do their job but they aren't allowed to instantly delete champions from the game, which is fair. Imagine having to deal with the same thing but with Marksmen in question. The moment you get into their range, you get instantly killed and nothing you do can help you avoid it, except avoiding interacting with them on occasions.

Troll for Trump1 votes

That's exactly it, ADCs all have a zone of control. They don't instagib you, but they don't take risks, in the case of Caitlin and Twitch. For Vayne, you take more risks but get a much higher payoff. Vayne is one of the assassin ADCs, and she does the job better than most primary assassins. As does twitch.

But rather than being a part of their kit, their burst is linked to Crit chance, which is often paired with attack speed, giving them bursty dps

Elikain1 votes

Marksmen have really poor zone control. One ability added for a slow, stun or a snare doesn't constitute for a broken design and for most of them, it's not a point and click ability that disables another champion in some way. It's a skillshot that requires aim. Jinx and Ashe are examples of Marksmen that don't do so well if you get in their faces. Whether or not a champion plays with risks involved also depends on you or your team. You can't say that anything a champion does requires an inherent risk if you never want to make a move yourself to inconvenience them and make their action risky.

Vayne has always been strong. People have just been playing her the wrong way because BotRK was insanely popular for whatever crappy reason. And suddenly people switched to Shiv + IE, two items that were available in their form from the Marksmen update (because of the Shiv changes). Vayne always had this assassin potential built in because even with a BotRK build, she ends up buying it as a 5th-6th item, still killing people the same but it's OK then because she's fed?

She doesn't do a job better than Zed, Katarina, Rengar or a Talon for example. Because you already know what happened when Zed and Rengar had the stranglehold on the instagibbing potential. Vayne's really an AA built champion, her entire kit revolves around right clicking on things while assassins are AD spellcasters, often relying on combos to deal the brunt of their damage.

You remember when Zed had a high skill ceiling kit? The more and more a champion stays in circulation, the more and more time people have to practice, itemize and optimize their playstyle. When that happens, the average skill gap is lowered, accompanied by plethora of montage or "how to" videos that act as shortcuts to learning the champion faster. Once the true potential of that champion can now be reached by a lot of people, Riot has to increase this ceiling or nerf something about that champion to prevent overperformance on a consistent level. Meaning that Riot is always looking for that 50% winrate on an average level, slightly increasing for the higher skilled players but the inevitable part here is that with time, people always get better and this process has to repeat itself.

Troll for Trump1 votes

You won't get in your faces, because you can't get in their faces. They will just keep attacking you from a range. Everyone has a zone of control, and the overlapping of these zones is what constitutes a "Trade"

If a champ doesn't have to take any risks except against their counter lanes, that champ is broken. (Yas, for instance). It isn't fair for everyone else to have to play around a champ, while the user of that champ doesn't have to go out of their way for anything in particular.

Because back then, Botrk wasn't gutted, and crit items weren't buffed. Back then, she would build crit too (in the prime of Shyv/Rapid Firecannon), but she wouldn't be successful as a champ, because the champs using those items would be long range champs, which are just better against Vayne.

Vayne does as much burst(if not higher) than most assassins faster than the assassins themselves do, because Riot forced delays on them(Talon). There are exceptions, like Rengar, but this isn't the case for most things.

In addition, Vayne also has the power to kill tanks much more easily than assassins, WHILE optimizing dmg to squishies(because of her mixed dmg, she doesn't need armor pen as much as assassins vs tanks)

That's not true. The skill cap is linked with how overloaded a champ is. It's why the oldest champs, and simple champs will never be good. Even when they've been around a long time, their skill cap can't increase

Elikain1 votes

The skill cap is linked with how overloaded a champ is.

I'm again going have to correct you on on your definition here, just like i did on your "carry is a role" definition. Simple kits and complicated kits play differently and mostly they lack depth because they're meant to be for starter champions. Riot will unlikely make champions with simple kits at all because you can't really express your mastery through mechanics if the kit has no depth. That doesn't mean those champions are boring but it does mean that not every champion should be made complicated because those convoluted kits don't suit every player.

Higher skill ceiling always means the champions appear weaker than they already are because it takes time for a player to find the optimal way to play with a kit. More complicated kits always have more balance levers because there are many things Riot can change or shift power around, without requiring a rework. Simple kits are screwed in such a way because if nerfed in the only thing they do good, they're no longer good. The prime examples of simple but binary kits are Tryndamere and Aatrox.

Troll for Trump1 votes

I'm again going have to correct you on on your definition here, just like i did on your "carry is a role" definition.

Sorry, that's not correcting. It's an opinion. The definition of the word "carry" can be different for people. It's not defined in any way.

The champs that can be starter champs should have simple kits. But many champs, which were once considered less simple, are now made more plain in comparison with the more overloaded kits of today. With each new champ and rework, the older champs fall more and more behind. Thus, reworks happen. But reworks happen at a slower pace than Champion releases, and, reworks themselves also add to the power creeping.

iot will unlikely make champions with simple kits at all because you can't really express your mastery through mechanics if the kit has no depth.

There was a post about it for somewhere, but Riot intends to make a starter "beginner champ" next year.

Thing is, when you become "skilled" at a high skill ceiling champ, you end up with something that can't be beat when that high skill ceiling champ is also overloaded. If you become "skilled" at a simple champ or a medium level difficulty champ, you will never be able to beat the high skill ceiling champ, and you can't control that. You are limited by your champ, not your experience or skills.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Annie is probably an exception. Most simple champs are binary, either good in the meta or garbage.

Riot can release unique concepts, but they don't need to power creep it(Blitzcrank vs Thresh for instance). There is a limit. Unfortunatly, people usually only get hyped when there is power creep. So you sacrifice balance for enrapturing the playerbase

With faster updates, there's even less reason for a champ to be weak. I can understand that they could be weak for a long time with monthly updates, but with biweekly updates, there is no excuse to not at least put SOME number changes for weak champs on the PBE (meaning they're tentative).

See DoTA's balance plans for instance; it works pretty well

Frius3 votes

i think the 550 range on Q hurts extremly much ,so hard to catch someone withotuitem 3142 or ult speed thats its dumb

he used to have 700 range gapcloser on E ,you know

also the delay on W hurts that it takes 0.7 for blades to come back ,that anyone can dodge it ,

khazix E has 700 basic range , 900 with upgrade rengar 725 with passive katarina lb also

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by R Æ

Talons Kit
Gameplay27 comments
7
votes