About talon, he's really weak right now, riot has admitted this and I just want to know from everyone, do you like his new kit, do you hate it, do you want the rework reverted (similar to what happened to kog) or do you just want some simple or hard buffs? Please let me know.
Sona x Rubick3 votesi want his old kit back not because of how weak he is, but because i don't want to play a kit revolving around roaming and being a second jungler instead of an assassin that can delete someone in the backline
Ralanr3 votesSo basically make him only viable when he's stronger than Zed?
Sona x Rubick2 votesRemind me when talon was able to get AD from the ADC?
also remind me when talon was better than zed at roaming? better split pushing? better laning phase? Remind me when zed had the ability to go into a wombo combo composition?
they said they wanted to give talon an adventage near terrains, i thought he was going to deal bonus damages or doing something else than a jump over a wall.
Ralanr2 votes[{quoted}](name=Sona x Rubick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vJHE07q2,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2016-12-08T20:42:46.305+0000)
Remind me when talon was able to get AD from the ADC?
Why? That's a new thing for Zed and has nothing to do with the past struggle between the two.
also remind me when talon was better than zed at roaming? better split pushing? better laning phase? Remind me when zed had the ability to go into a wombo combo composition?
I can't find a specific moment because I don't watch proplay at all and don't pay that much attention to the assassin meta. But thinking about your points and Talon's old kit make me realize that neither of them were really better than the other (except for Zed's safer laning phase) at the regular assassin gig.
That IMO was Talon's problem. He was the most bland of the assassins with very little actually special about him.
Now granted I do like his rework, but I'm not going to say he's not weak. He is, the lose of a reliable gap closer basically killed his own engagement potential and now he requires his team to engage first. The requirements of needing an AA to proc his passive also makes it really weak late game (honestly I think that he should proc it on the third proc, maybe have it so his passive scales to do that in late).
Sona x Rubick1 votesWhy? That's a new thing for Zed and has nothing to do with the past struggle between the two.
nothing wrong with reverting the rework of talon then, since zed has something new
{quoted} That IMO was Talon's problem. He was the most bland of the assassins with very little actually special about him.
you're joking? Talon was the ONLY ONE with AOE damage making him going into the "wombo combo" composition, katarina of course had her ulti but in high elo she was always hard countered by hard CC.
Ralanr2 votes[{quoted}](name=Sona x Rubick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vJHE07q2,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-08T20:56:57.118+0000)
nothing wrong with reverting the rework of talon then, since zed has something new
you're joking? Talon was the ONLY ONE with AOE damage making him going into the "wombo combo" composition, Katarina of course had her ulti but in high elo she was always hard countered by hard CC.
So technically no, he wasn't the only one.
Why not just make his E work on enemies as a blink, keep the terrain hoping, and remove the dash on his Q then?
Edit: plus if Katarina's rework helps her become more viable in high elo, then he wouldn't even have the AoE assassin niche anymore.
Sona x Rubick1 voteskatarina still isn't a niche for wombo combo as long as her ulti is channeled
Katarina wasn't doing this niche and never did because in high elo you prefered Talon combined with fiddlestick or someshit rather than more magical damage that is channeled
So yes he was, no assassin used to 50-0 your team (except tanks)
Ralanr2 votesExcept now if her rework allows her to be viable she can fulfill the AoE assassin role.
Terumie2 votesHe is not weak. He just got a sh*tty passive that can only proc with an AA. And we follow that goddamn Passive on impuls and end up dying cuz yolo.Plus; His Q is now an ability instead an AA.
MunchCrunchLunch2 votesif talon doesn't get a kill pre level 6. he loses the game. to be specific. talon has to get a kill at level 2.
VoidWaIker1 votesif talon doesn't get a kill pre level 6. he loses the game. to be specific. talon has to get a kill at level 2.
Even then, he cant kill shit after 30 minutes. No matter how fed
MunchCrunchLunch1 voteshes pretty bad. he has to not just snowball. but super snowball. he has to get multiple kills before level 11.
here is the thing. talon kit. has a lot of damage. more than before. the issue is that since his dash is short and isn't a blink. laning with him is EVEN worse than it was. way way worse. even wth the hp return on Q. its meaningless when a mage can just auto you down to half hp and your stupid ass predictable linear dash can just be cced midway or at least give the enemy basically a free opportunity to combo you.
VoidWaIker1 votesEven then its still not enough, he completely falls off late no matter what
MunchCrunchLunch1 votesit falls off because you just get exahusted and die
every assassin falls off late game. its just how the game works it favors auto attacks and crits or magic damage in the late game.
since a good chunk of a caster damage is from base damages. after you max an ablitiy. stats will only give you so much. meahwile building ad and crit amplifies your aa damage exponentially as a whole
VoidWaIker1 votesYes but Talon falls off worse then the rest, as someone in r/talonmains discord so eloquently put it
"hisn late is not perfect? its pure shit"
MunchCrunchLunch1 votestalon is just not good in general. but he doesn't work at all late game i agree fizz and zed can function late game. and most other assassin but yeah hes probably the worst late game assassin atm.
any decent mid laner will beat you at level 3 and above because u only have 2 abilities lmao. your E is uselss in lane.
Teridax682 votesThe poll is poorly phrased, and reverting a kit is not the answer to a perceived lack of raw power, which is a balance issue. If the issue is simply that Talon is too weak, then all he needs is buffs to his numbers. Reverting his rework would imply that his previous kit was somehow healthier, easier to balance, etc., than his current one, which is highly unlikely.
VoidWaIker1 votesThe poll is poorly phrased, and reverting a kit is not the answer to a perceived lack of raw power, which is a balance issue. If the issue is simply that Talon is too weak, then all he needs is buffs to his numbers. Reverting his rework would imply that his previous kit was somehow healthier, easier to balance, etc., than his current one, which is highly unlikely.
Tbh it kinda was, the whole point of the assassin reworks was to delay burst all they would have needed to do was add the ult delay he has now and maybe delay rakes return but keep its slow both ways. Would be easier to balance then the new gimmicky e. But ya the op did mention he worded it bad on discord.
Teridax681 votesHis E so far hasn't been an especially big issue, and was hugely well-received when it was presented. The point of the assassin rework wasn't just to delay burst, even if it achieved that successfully (on Talon, anyway), it was also to add more counterplay and outplay potential. There are more ways Talon can outplay people, thanks in part to his E, but there are also more ways players can outplay Talon, which is perhaps that's causing the nostalgia for his older, dysfunctional kit. Do you seriously miss his old passive? His multiple personal damage amps? His one-note, ultra-binary kill combo?
VoidWaIker1 votesTbh, I would rather a useless passive then losing a blink + dmg amp for a gimmicky e that is 100% useless in lane and losing all his pushing potential in lane due to his q not being an AA.
So yes in a way I miss his old passive, definitely miss the dmg amp, and given that it actually killed stuff, yes I miss his old combo.
Teridax681 votesTalon got additional damage via his passive, and still has an in-fight gapcloser, on top of the roaming power he has now. His Q at melee range also deals more damage than it ever did pre-rework, and when used for last-hitting provides sustain and has a reduced cooldown. I'm not saying Talon is perfect now, but he is, without a doubt, significantly better than he used to be, and I'd rather not go back to a kit that drew significantly more complaints on the forums even when Talon wasn't a topic du jour, as he is now.
Moving forward, I think one way to improve Talon currently would be to reduce the rank 1 downtime on his E, as it feels a bit too restrictive early on. Alternatively, having the cooldown reduce itself a little with levels, on top of ranks, would allow Talon to naturally roam a bit better without putting points in the skill. His bleed currently scales well, but has really terrible base damage, which should probably be ranked up. I also think it might be better for his kit's functionality if his ranged Q made him vault over his target, or if Vault could itself be used against enemy champions, since his ult makes him naturally want to place himself behind his opponent. Ultimately, Talon's a lot more fun to play and play against, he just doesn't feel as strong as he should be.
ImNotGio2 votesTalon is odd. Ever since his rework there are a lot of match ups that he would win, that are now more difficult for him. Like for example; Veigar. Before you could blink out of his cage and punish him for it. Now all you have is a dash and a wall vault that aren't going to help you out.
DDasani1 votesHere's the thing: I've played a lot of Talon games and I can say 2 things. #1 level 2 kill depends on your enemy laner not backing after you kept W-ing them for a little bit(getting the actual kill with level 2 Q). It is possible but it takes a lot risk that I myself didn't want to do at first but I found it to be very beneficial to me and my team to try and secure the first kill. #2 It is possible to "come back" If you don't get fed early enough, it'll take a while but, I know for a fact it's very possible (the end). Now This all my opinion of course, like it is with everything. I don't and will not claim to know Talon inside and out, but I do know that previously (old talon) had an actual rotation you had to execute before you could get a kill. Now it's all based on picking out weak targets or roaming a lot. Roaming has it's downsides as you all know but it's only good if you keep your eye out for low HP targets.
VoidWaIker2 votesHere's the thing: I've played a lot of Talon games and I can say 2 things. #1 level 2 kill depends on your enemy laner not backing after you kept W-ing them for a little bit(getting the actual kill with level 2 Q). It is possible but it takes a lot risk that I myself didn't want to do at first but I found it to be very beneficial to me and my team to try and secure the first kill. #2 It is possible to "come back" If you don't get fed early enough, it'll take a while but, I know for a fact it's very possible (the end). Now This all my opinion of course, like it is with everything. I don't and will not claim to know Talon inside and out, but I do know that previously (old talon) had an actual rotation you had to execute before you could get a kill. Now it's all based on picking out weak targets or roaming a lot. Roaming has it's downsides as you all know but it's only good if you keep your eye out for low HP targets.
It isnt really possible to come back though, he becomes useless past 20/30 minute marks. His damage is way to low, can't even 1v1 adcs anymore
Sona x Rubick1 votesthat's the thing, his damage is low ON PURPOSE, because his roaming is insane.
that's why the rework sucks cocks
