*Critical Chance seems like the furthest thing from balanced.

GigglingAngel··10 votes·1,183 views

Tell me how luck is balanced in this game, please.

27 Comments

Tsugaga7 votes

It seems the same logic for removing dodge could apply to crit. Having your attack randomly blocked isn't good for the game, but having champs randomly deal 2-2.5x damage is? Any champ with crit is already strong enough, that's why they're building full damage items, I don't see the need for a stat that randomly multiplies the damage. I've never liked crit.

GigglingAngel1 votes

{quoted}

It seems the same logic for removing dodge could apply to crit. Having your attack randomly blocked isn't good for the game, but having champs randomly deal 2-2.5x damage is? Any champ with crit is already strong enough, that's why they're building full damage items, I don't see the need for a stat that randomly multiplies the damage. I've never liked crit.

I was thinking the same thing. But hey ... when is Riot actually smart with their balancing, especially lately? XD

JustMyBassCannon2 votes

{quoted}

But hey ... when is Riot actually smart with their balancing, especially lately? XD

There's a difference between knowing what they're doing (Riot does) and being able to fix everything at the instant that it's a problem (Riot can't, and shouldn't be expected to).

They know about Crit Chance being problematic. But they have to come up with a viable solution to the problem; something that replaces Crit Chance, doing it's job without the same problems. That involves brainstorming options, programming and testing them to see if they do what you want, then going back and re-brainstorming because it didn't quite work out the way you expected.

Like every goddamn balance change, it takes time and work to figure out what exactly to fix.

GigglingAngel2 votes

{quoted}

There's a difference between knowing what they're doing (Riot does) and being able to fix everything at the instant that it's a problem (Riot can't, and shouldn't be expected to).

Because they totally knew what they were doing when they nerfed Kassadin and Veigar (who was supposed to be compensated, btw) the way they did, right? ;D

They know about Crit Chance being problematic. But they have to come up with a viable solution to the problem; something that replaces Crit Chance, doing it's job without the same problems. That involves brainstorming options, programming and testing them to see if they do what you want, then going back and re-brainstorming because it didn't quite work out the way you expected.

They can just remove it altogether while they think of something to replace it with. You know, like they did with DFG, one of the 3 main AP items for mages. :3

Like every goddamn balance change, it takes time and work to figure out what exactly to fix.

How many more seasons will it be until we see a change with crit chance? By then, will it even matter?

Naw, they are too busy putting resources into updating skins and creating a computer to deal with tribunal cases ...

JustMyBassCannon3 votes

{quoted}

Because they totally knew what they were doing when they nerfed Kassadin and Veigar (who was supposed to be compensated, btw) the way they did, right? ;D

"It wasn't perfect on the first try, they have no idea what they're doing."

Veigar and Kassadin have incoming buffs, if you pay any attention to the PBE.

They can just remove it altogether while they think of something to replace it with. You know, like they did with DFG, one of the 3 main AP items for mages. :3

The difference is that DFG was causing minor problems with the balance of AP champions. Crit Chance is systemically necessary, but the way it is implemented is not healthy for balance.

If you were to entirely remove Crit Chance, all Marksmen would either switch to on-hit builds or disappear entirely until they came up with a solution.

The removal of DFG, by comparison, doesn't hurt any mages that don't already need reworking. The removal of DFG allows them to focus on fixing those mages that relied on it, and hand out a few buffs to the ones that weren't dependent on it but still need some help after its removal.

How many more seasons will it be until we see a change with crit chance? By then, will it even matter?

Naw, they are too busy putting resources into updating skins and creating a computer to deal with tribunal cases ...

Yes, because Riot is one team of programmers instead of several teams divided into artists, programmers, math-crafting balancers, public relations and every-fucking-thing else they do.

But you wouldn't know a single thing about programming or group projects, so I can't really be upset with your ignorance.

GigglingAngel1 votes

{quoted}

"It wasn't perfect on the first try, they have no idea what they're doing."

Good job putting words in my mouth.
Anyone can go do that, but it doesn't make them smart. Just makes them dull.

Veigar and Kassadin have incoming buffs, if you pay any attention to the PBE.

I do. However, they should have tested out those original changes before making them live. If they truly knew what they were doing, they wouldn't release such broken changes.

Veigar's Win Rate: http://www.lolking.net/champions/veigar#statistics 49.46% dropped to 42.64% (0.18% shy of a whole 7%). It went as low as 39.76% on the 3th, just 3 days ago. It can't even reach 45%. Kassadin's Win Rate: http://www.lolking.net/champions/kassadin#statistics 47.48% dropped to 39.29% (over 8%). It went as low as a measly 33.48% on the 6th, just 5 days ago. The highest it got was 41.3% ...

If you don't see a problem here, then it's no wonder you kiss Riot's behind so heartily.

The difference is that DFG was causing minor problems with the balance of AP champions. Crit Chance is systemically necessary, but the way it is implemented is not healthy for balance.

If you were to entirely remove Crit Chance, all Marksmen would either switch to on-hit builds or disappear entirely until they came up with a solution.

I was making a sarcastic point of them suddenly taking out something without there being anything to fill the void; something they shouldn't do. So very sorry you missed the sarcasm. :3

The removal of DFG, by comparison, doesn't hurt any mages that don't already need reworking. The removal of DFG allows them to focus on fixing those mages that relied on it, and hand out a few buffs to the ones that weren't dependent on it but still need some help after its removal.

Like how they "fixed" Veigar with his "compensation" rework, spotting him a new win rate of less than 45%, right? :D

Yes, because Riot is one team of programmers instead of several teams divided into artists, programmers, math-crafting balancers, public relations and every-fucking-thing else they do.

I said "resources". What are resources?

Resource: ** a source of supply, support, or aid, especially one that can be readily drawn upon when needed.**

What would "resource" mean in the context I stated? Obviously (to people with half a brain), it would mean their budget. If you can't even understand what I meant by "resources", then stop trying to sound intelligent. It's not doing you any favors.

But you wouldn't know a single thing about programming or group projects, so I can't really be upset with your ignorance.

I know plenty about programming and group projects, having taken Visual Communications in college and co-leading several groups while in the course. The only ignorance here is yours. Stop spreading it around everywhere, please.

JustMyBassCannon2 votes

{quoted}

Good job putting words in my mouth.
Anyone can go do that, but it doesn't make them smart. Just makes them dull.

A word is such a small thing to put in the mouth of a man who regularly sticks his foot in it.

If you didn't want to imply that, maybe you should have thought about what you said. Riot knew exactly what they were doing with the nerf, but they could not predict how much it would affect Kassadin and Veigar.

I do. However, they should have tested out those original changes before making them live. If they truly knew what they were doing, they wouldn't release such broken changes.

Veigar's Win Rate: http://www.lolking.net/champions/veigar#statistics 49.46% dropped to 42.64% (0.18% shy of a whole 7%). It went as low as 39.76% on the 3th, just 3 days ago. It can't even reach 45%. Kassadin's Win Rate: http://www.lolking.net/champions/kassadin#statistics 47.48% dropped to 39.29% (over 8%). It went as low as a measly 33.48% on the 6th, just 5 days ago. The highest it got was 41.3% ...

If you don't see a problem here, then it's no wonder you kiss Riot's behind so heartily.

If the PBE tests could fully predict exactly how a change would affect a champion, you would be right. Unfortunately, all the PBE can successfully show is how changes affect a champion, and whether or not it's an effect that Riot wants.

Quite obviously, they were satisfied with the PBE changes, and while they were aware that it would have a negative impact, they figured they would see to what extent it affects them, and make changes from there.

Did you know that, for the first month, Syndra's win rate was around 37%? And what did they do? Oh yeah, they buffed her. Multiple times.

I was making a sarcastic point of them suddenly taking out something without there being anything to fill the void; something they shouldn't do. So very sorry you missed the sarcasm. :3

So what? You made a lame joke and I made a valid counter-point. You decide to say, "It was a joke." And I reply, "So where's the punch line? Or is it just not supposed to be funny?"

Like how they "fixed" Veigar with his "compensation" rework, spotting him a new win rate of less than 45%, right? :D

Implying that fixing a champion means one patch, instead of several patches applied over time.

I said "resources". What are resources?

Resource: ** a source of supply, support, or aid, especially one that can be readily drawn upon when needed.**

What would "resource" mean in the context I stated? Obviously (to people with half a brain), it would mean their budget. If you can't even understand what I meant by "resources", then stop trying to sound intelligent. It's not doing you any favors.

"I was implying money," to shorten all of your bluster.

Did you know that employees in a company are often called "human resources"? So, to anyone with a full brain, they could easily see that sentence as implying either monetary or human resources. The fact that I assumed the wrong one simply means I didn't read your mind through a computer. Which would be fucking awesome.

In any case, they have resources put into everything in their business. The fact that everything doesn't happen instantly doesn't mean they aren't working.

It would be nice if they'd actually communicate, but considering how people like you "communicate" to them, I can't say I'm surprised at the lack of discourse.

I know plenty about programming and group projects, having taken Visual Communications in college and co-leading several groups while in the course.

Interesting, and yet you act like you have no idea. I must say, it was an ingenious bluff, if it was intentional.

The only ignorance here is yours. Stop spreading it around everywhere, please.

The fact that I'm more willing to believe that Riot knows what they're doing than I am to believe that you have any rational understanding of how a business run by programmers functions does not mean I am ignorant; it means I am biased. This bias comes from about five years of examining Riot's design principles and the evolution of League of Legends, and about five minutes at a time replying to you.

Riot has generally stuck to their principles. They've made mistakes, and occasionally, they've stepped past old principles for the sake of changing the game. It takes them a while to get some things changed, and there are bumps in the road, but they have made very few long-term mistakes.

You, so far, made a streak of lame, sarcastic knocks at the choices made last patch, either being entirely unaware of what it takes to gauge changes, or just intentionally being an impatient snark. In either case, you are being actually ignorant.

Irelia Bot2 votes

It shouldbe change from a % chance of doing double damage to being a % of extra damage on hit.

aka phantom danacer would make you do 35% of your AD on hit.

Infinity edge would give 20% and then incase this stat in total by 50% so PD with infinity edge would make this stat be ((.35+.20)*1.5)total AD added on hit aka 82.5% of your AD on hit.

Then trynda has no cheese triple crits at level 1 or 2 making him snowball without even out playing the enemy who could not react to 3 crits in a row rare but has happened to me several times. But is still going to hurt just as much in theory.

Ashe can actually get a passive that is more useful. Say auto attack damage is increased by 5/10/15/20/25% when no enemy champs are within 350 units of her.

Panth's 15% or lower target is changed from crits to does double damage

And you no longer have a stat that is unpredictable and uncontrollable but just as strong in the theoretical damage output and more reliable.

GigglingAngel1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zYjuAU1p,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-03-10T05:30:25.806+0000)

It shouldbe change from a % chance of doing double damage to being a % of extra damage on hit.

aka phantom danacer would make you do 35% of your AD on hit.

Infinity edge would give 20% and then incase this stat in total by 50% so PD with infinity edge would make this stat be ((.35+.20)*1.5)total AD added on hit aka 82.5% of your AD on hit.

I'm not sure how well that would work. Every single critical chance item would become a form of Deathcap, and I'm not sure how that would be healthy.

Irelia Bot1 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure how well that would work. Every single critical chance item would become a form of Deathcap, and I'm not sure how that would be healthy.

If you really think about it crit chance is a death cap that happens without the control of the players.

ZombeezyJeezy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zYjuAU1p,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2015-03-12T04:03:21.394+0000)

If you really think about it crit chance is a death cap that happens without the control of the players.

Crit Chance is nothing like Deathcap.

Deathcap = a % AP boost. Characters who build Deathcap build it because their AP ratios are high, and will provide them consistently with much more damage.

Crit Chance = a % CHANCE to do 200-250% more damage on hit. It is not consistent unless you have 55% crit chance, but when you do it's overwhelming to anyone who didn't build armor.

Irelia Bot1 votes

{quoted}

Crit Chance is nothing like Deathcap.

Deathcap = a % AP boost. Characters who build Deathcap build it because their AP ratios are high, and will provide them consistently with much more damage.

Crit Chance = a % CHANCE to do 200-250% more damage on hit. It is not consistent unless you have 55% crit chance, but when you do it's overwhelming to anyone who didn't build armor.

Wel then let us say that Deathcap instead of 30% more AP would provide a 25% for abilities to crit.

Would you call that toxic and a bad design? I would.

Now look at infinity edge. It gives a 20% chance to do 150% of your AD on hit.

Crit chance is by all means an on hit effect already. I just want the damage spread out.

ZombeezyJeezy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zYjuAU1p,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-12T05:36:42.717+0000)

Wel then let us say that Deathcap instead of 30% more AP would provide a 25% for abilities to crit.

Would you call that toxic and a bad design? I would.

Now look at infinity edge. It gives a 20% chance to do 150% of your AD on hit.

Crit chance is by all means an on hit effect already. I just want the damage spread out.

IMO I think Crit Chance being replaced by more interesting on-hit effects and boosts to AD abilities would be way more interesting.

example a Shiv that keeps its "chain lightning" effect but replaces crit chance with AD and have the lightning scale with AD (instead of it being able to crit) Or an item that grants bonus AD after successive hits on the same target, similar to item 3181

Things like this are more interesting than crit chance in almost every way.

Hıryu2 votes

I prefered the bloodthirster rush meta. Even thought it meant whoever got BT first won lane, it's better than seeing someone snowball off of a lucky crit.

GigglingAngel1 votes

{quoted}

I prefered the bloodthirster rush meta. Even thought it meant whoever got BT first won lane, it's better than seeing someone snowball off of a lucky crit.

Too true. :(

Leti the Yeti1 votes

you dont . w. http://puu.sh/eCCej/1240264362.jpg luck is all over the place, not just crits if u ask me

Señor Karthus1 votes

Crit chance should also have a cap of 40% like CDR. Or just not exist at all.

GigglingAngel2 votes

{quoted}

Crit chance should also have a cap of 40% like CDR.

How would that solve anything? Luck would still play a major factor.

Señor Karthus1 votes

Edited

Tsugaga1 votes

Crit can just be removed any time in my opinion. Sure it may also nerf some champs, but that didn't matter when dodge was removed. Removing dodge mainly affected 2 champs, Jax and Udyr. Jax was compensated with changes to his E, Udyr however just got nerfed altogether by it. The main issue with removing crit is that some champs would need changes such as Panth and Ashe, and masteries would need to be changed because the Frenzy/Reinforced Armour masteries involve crit.

Mathbalnase2 votes

Removing Dodge necessitated reworking a small handful of champions and items. Removing Crit in a similar fashion would necessitate reworking most of an entire class of champions.

Scorpionex1 votes

actually panth doesnt need a change he gets 100% crit from his e which isnt luck based and the only thing on ashe that would need to be changed is her passive unless it had a cooldown and after that cooldown it did 100% crit? idk but those are two of the least effected by it because all youd have to do for panth is say in the spell thing that once a champ is below 15% health he does double damage with his auto and q done lol

doublelift fg1 votes

it's not even about luck, how 250% bonus dmg is even balanced?

Fizz is not Fish1 votes

another week, another critical thread.

Hinagiku331 votes

If we're talking luck...why is it balanced for East Coast players like me to be matched against West Coast players that have a big advantage dodging our skillshots while we have a sizable handicap dodging theirs?

But on-topic:

What would you rather have? All AD items give a lot more AD? Nerf all Armor items? Make Last Whisper even more insane?

Dodge was removed because if you dodged an attack...that was it. Done. Crit stayed because even when you Crit it can still be mitigated by armor and health.

The simple fact is that AD Carries, by design, need to make Tanks die horribly late-game after they become much, much harder for everyone else to kill. The trinity of Attack Damage, Attack Speed, and Crit ensures that AD Carries out-scale everything damage-wise. Having only one aspect of the trinity isn't too great, having two makes for a solid mid-game power spike, and having all three makes you like unto a God. These power spikes can also be called "Bloodthirster" (although BotRK is popular these days too), "Phantom Dancer", and "Infinity Edge".

AD Carries, Tanks, and their items are currently balanced around the carries dealing 250% damage every 2-3 basic attacks.

Riddle me this:

If you spend 360 gold for a Long Sword and deal more damage on every basic attack and your AD-scaling abilities, and I spend 400 on a Brawler's Gloves that provides no stats/damage but gives me 8% chance to crit...then why is it wrong for me to occasionally crit you in lane? You paid for a reliable boost to your damage at all times (instant gratification) and I paid for an unreliable chance to deal a lot more damage to bide my time and engage when it did go off (delayed gratification). Why not just ask for items that can mitigate crit damage? Why should I not be allowed to opt into this strategy? Why should we be forced to play only one way?

GigglingAngel1 votes

Your whole argument revolves around the assumption that "luck" is a balanced thing.

Riot has said time and time again that they want wins to happen because the team that won was more skilled.

When someone buys Infinity Edge and has a 20% chance to crit, only 1 in 5 attacks should do that. Yet, there will be games where someone will only get IF for Crit Chance, yet get 4 crits in a row during teamfights, instantly killing people because the rest of their build was meant to bolster their AD.

Or ...

Someone will buy 55% worth of Crit Chance and only get 1 crit after 5 attacks ...

I note both of those situations because I see them happen way too often.

That's not balanced. Luck isn't balanced. Luck shouldn't win/lose games. Skill should win/lose games.

Hinagiku331 votes

"Luck" is, in fact, balanced.

It's called Pseudo Random Number Generation (PRNG). The computer distributes your crits with a formula and you will not just never crit while having 40% chance or crit a bunch of times in a row with only 5%.

You assume that 55% chance of Crit means that someone can only crit once every other attack and that any other outcome is somehow "wrong". This is completely untrue. The computer has more-or-less already decided when a player will crit and sometimes those crits happen consecutively or after a bit of a dry spell.

See: Twisted Fate's passive Loaded Dice. You get 1-6 gold from killing a unit. Totally random you say? Absolutely incorrect. It's called Loaded Dice because it always gives you the same amount of gold over time. The computer knows when to hand out 5-6 and when to hand out 1-2 so that it all averages out the same.

"Luck shouldn't win/lose games"? Why not? Maybe Chess is more your speed, a game where everything is utterly predictable and you have no risk of anything exciting ever happening.

"Skill should win/lose games"? You keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means. If you choose to buy raw damage and I choose to buy a crit item, I am choosing to spend my gold on that less reliable (but bigger) burst of damage. Why am I not skilled for laning against an opponent with more damage than me while I fish for a crit? Why am I not skilled choosing a different strategy than you? Why am I not skilled just because I know how to lane safely until I crit and dive you when I do while you apparently don't?

More from Gameplay

More by GigglingAngel