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The East Coast Disadvantage

MtDewWarrior··66 votes·7,501 views

The East Coast disadvantage is nothing new to any veteran supporters of Riot, but for those of you who may not know what I'm talking about exactly I will attempt to bring to light the issues we East Coast players face. In any competitive game your ability to react to your opponent is of the highest importance and in many cases the biggest factor to your defeat or victory, but particularly in E-Sports it is the factor that decides games as all players are presumably on the same playing field with no superficial advantage aside from game knowledge, practice, and skill. It is the reason everyone in the world can participate in E-Sports and why I feel it has grown to the lengths it has. League of Legend, one of the biggest competitive E-Sports scenes to date, prides itself on being the next big E-Sports scene that has grown to even offer College Scholarships to the most skilled players. With a million dollars going to the winner of this year's Season 4 world champions, it is clear to see that the competition associated with league is beyond casual at this stage. Even though league is nearing its 5 Year bench mark there is still a clear issue that has gone unmanned in this highly competitive scene. Players from the West Coast closer to the servers can expect to see pings anywhere from 10-50, while players on the East Coast will typically experience pings between 50-150 and in rare cases pings exceeding 150. League of Legends is notorious for how sharp your game play has to be to be competing at the best, seamless spell weaving, perfect animation canceling, quick reactions, are all key parts to what makes a player average to what makes a player a legend. This being said East Coast players are clearly disadvantaged from the start, leaving a not so even playing field in one of the most competitive games in E-sports. Riot recently has attempted to spear head the issue by posting their game plan to solve the East Coast players woe, but many players can draw parallels to the same type of post that was posted years ago in regards to this growing issue with still very little to no real results. Many gaming companies have managed to provide seemingly equal ping to their competitive player base with considerably smaller budgets so there seems to be no excuse why a company fronting the most popular game in the world can't achieve the same results. Negligence, Greed, what exactly is preventing the Riot staff from providing fair ping to everyone, seems to be the heart of the question we East Coast players ask every time we attempt to Insec a player as Lee Sin but fall short due to the incapability of doing such on 100+ Ping.

Relevant Notes: I'm clearly not Master Tier / Challenger and am in no way claiming that ping is why I am not such, but I have recently transferred an account to LAN where I receive 20-40 ping in comparison to my 90-150 on NA I have seen very strict changes to my ability to perform. Changes that only seem to support that there is a clear advantage given to any player on the West Coast and equally a disadvantage to those on the East Coast. I am not satisfied with the attention Riot is giving this issue, and I am hoping that with more community support we will see equal ping going into Season 5 so that we truly all have a fair shake.

Tl;dr: There is a clear difference between West and East cost ping on NA that is leading to a clear disadvantageous conditioning in a highly competitive gaming environment.

http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2josvi/the_east_coast_disadvantage/

I also posted this on reddit in hopes to garner as much attention as possible (And also to save this writing piece since there are rumors that such posts get deleted)

71 Comments

BlazingSalvo43 votes

Think of it this way.

Average human reaction time is is about 250-260 ms. http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/statistics

A youth in their prime (16-18) can have a reaction time as low as 180 ms, after which it quickly increases to 240~ in the 20s, to up to 300+ in later stages of life. http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Reaction_Time.aspx http://scientific-child-prodigy.blogspot.com/2008/01/reaction-time-and-age-of-subject.html

The human eye processes zero information while moving, and the movement can last anywhere from 20-40 ms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_movement_in_reading

And the time it takes your brain to even process information from your eyeballs is 80 ms. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTOODPf-iuc

Basically, an East Coaster with 120 ping sees information over two hundred percent later than a West Coaster with 20 ping. Additionally, the difference between the reaction time of an East Coaster 100 ping higher than a West Coaster is like the difference between a human in their prime (16-18) and someone currently retired (50+).

Basically, you age 40 years playing on East Coast ping.

That's not even counting the concept of packet loss and jitter, which also affects players.

BlazingSalvo30 votes

And I'm really sick of reposting in these threads. Riot deletes East Coast threads (not even closes, just flat out deletes so I can't link), and this is the third time I've tried responding to one. l0l The stifling of discussion is real.

Long Dong Wukong10 votes

Is happy populace comrade. See? Is no complain here. No complain ever. Always happy.

TheNewHumanine2 votes

Relevant :D http://www.deathbulge.com/images/comics/223.jpg

DannyQuest2 votes

LeeSin even I can see the east cost is at a disadvantage

Neo Cyrus4 votes

I'd like to point out even if that's the average it's common enough for gamers to be able to react to 16 ms timings because that's roughly 1 frame when sync'd at 60 frames. Especially those who are used to fighting games with 1 frame timings. That's why I find it hard to believe that 180 ms reaction time for a youth is normal, I'm in my 20s and I still have no problem with 1 frame timings in fighting games despite having to deal with a minimum of 1 frame of delay throwing off the timings (from other factors like input delay).

So what I'm saying is that the ping disadvantage is much larger than you think for a lot of us, particularly those adapted to games with low frame timings.

BlazingSalvo1 votes

I mean, there's a difference between expecting timings and triggering them frame perfect vs. actually reacting to new impetus. In general though I agree.

NeroUS2 votes

Thing is, in LoL, probably much of what you do is in the expecting/triggering rather than new reaction.

Expecting lv 2 engages in bot lane, expecting lv 6 all ins in mid, seeing a jungler and getting ready to land a skill shot on him. Since both players do the same thing, it is reasonable to say West Coast players win because they get their hits in first.

Neo Cyrus1 votes

Of course you're correct, but in a lot of scenarios in those games you're actually surprised and don't have time to prepare a blazing reaction ahead of time so you really do have a single frame to react which is why muscle memory is mandatory to manage to physically react properly. The point is the mental thought and physical reaction is done within that time sometimes.

MattZeeX3 votes

Think of it this way.

Average human reaction time is is about 250-260 ms. http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/statistics

A youth in their prime (16-18) can have a reaction time as low as 180 ms, after which it quickly increases to 240~ in the 20s, to up to 300+ in later stages of life. http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Reaction_Time.aspx http://scientific-child-prodigy.blogspot.com/2008/01/reaction-time-and-age-of-subject.html

The human eye processes zero information while moving, and the movement can last anywhere from 20-40 ms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_movement_in_reading

And the time it takes your brain to even process information from your eyeballs is 80 ms. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTOODPf-iuc

Basically, an East Coaster with 120 ping sees information over two hundred percent later than a West Coaster with 20 ping. Additionally, the difference between the reaction time of an East Coaster 100 ping higher than a West Coaster is like the difference between a human in their prime (16-18) and someone currently retired (50+).

Basically, you age 40 years playing on East Coast ping.

That's not even counting the concept of packet loss and jitter, which also affects players.

I play on 250 ping, holy crap how much later do I see stuff...

Long Dong Wukong22 votes

They're assholes for it, but the reason they don't either have the servers in the middle or a separate East Coast server is because they don't actually get anything out of it besides mild customer satisfaction, and apparently when companies get pretty big, that doesn't actually matter in the slightest as long as people aren't quitting over the problem.

See : EA, Activision, Blizzard, and now Riot, etc.

Riot's basically content to let the majority of their NA playerbase play at a disadvantage. Again, because they don't actually gain anything for solving the issue. They don't actually give a single fuck about you as proven by their actions. All of their pathetic PR bullshit is just that, bullshit.

MtDewWarrior3 votes

I agree given the evidence, but I'm optimistic that Riot can be the gaming company they were when I first got interested in league back in S1. They were just a bunch of gamers like you and me, not blinded by corporate greed. I can only hope that the company I put my faith into pulls through for its community here. I've stopped buying RP mainly because I feel like they stopped deserving it when they stopped caring about half of their communities plight. I'm sure I'd buy RP again if they were to show they were still the company I supported so many years ago (I know I'm not alone in this).

Essilyn3 votes

Sadly, I agree with this.

Riot has no real incentive to make a NA East server, because all of their professional players already have gaming houses in areas where they'd have mighty fine ping to play on the NA server for Challenger games.

Those professionals may go home to the East Coast for vacation between splits, and still do fine in their Challenger tier games. Gives Riot an excuse and they can say, "See? Voyboy goes home to New York between splits and he has no problems maintaining his Challenger rank!".

Then there are other probable scenarios. Europe has EUW and EUN/E, two European servers on the western and eastern sides of Europe, which has the minor issue of the Challenger Series having to do double the work, as they have to draw from the top whatever number from both ladders, and do double the games to narrow down the teams that actually compete in Challenger series. They might not want to do all of that just for the US.

Another thought is simpler. No matter what they do with servers, people will complain. Move the server to Central US, West Coasters and East Coasters complain, blowing up the boards. Make an actual East Coast server, now Central players will complain that they should get a Central US server also. No matter what they do, nothing will be good enough for all NA players involved. Maybe even Canadian players might begin to complain that servers are too far south to be a NA server, and demand it be moved to somewhere like Michigan.

Lastly, there's the thought of diluting the Challenger pool. Riot likes to say they're in it for all levels of players. That is undoubted true to an extent, but these Challenger kids move on to become professionals that make Riot millions every time Worlds rolls around. They probably want the top 200 to fight each other and raise their skills, making scouting for NA talent easier for professional teams who only have to sift through the top 200 on one server instead of two servers, and having to decide if NA West 15th Challenger is actually the same as NA East 15th Challenger.

MtDewWarrior1 votes

I don't think it is fair to assume the current system provides the best results as players from East Coast aren't given a fair shake everytime they que up for ranked. Sure people do good and still get challenger with 150 ping, but they would be even better if they didn't have those barriers. I don't think we are as needy as you say as I'm more than positive an East coast server if placed correctly could solve the plight of both central and east coast ping.

DannyQuest1 votes

Logged in to up vote this

dangopee14 votes

An east coast jungler is pretty much incapable of winning a smite battle against a west coast jungler.

Trytan9 votes

I think for all the west coast non believers, we should have them make an account on the LAN server, and then get back to us.

Abroad Unicorn8 votes

I am boycotting purchasing RP until RIOT adds an east coast server. The difference in ping between east coast and west coast players is enormous. West coast players are capable of flashing away from a Katarina as soon as she Shunpos onto them, while the best any east coast player can hope for is to flash after they are hit by katarina's E-W combo. The latency on the east coast means there isn't enough time to react to the shunpo alone, because by the time your Client registers the shunpo Katarina has already used her W. The servers don't need to be divded up, as I understand the argument of not wanting to favor one region over another, or wanting to split the community into two. However, things cannot stay the way they are either. Create an East coast server and have matches be hosted on both the east and west coast servers at random. This would mean that every player in North America would have to deal with the same disadvantage at various times, and even out of the playing field. Somebody posted a infographic in another thread that showed the average ping of players in each Ranked Tier. As players got into gold and higher, the average latency got lower and lower. Platinum players have an average latency of 50-80, while diamond and above are all below 60.

hOrnn1 votes

I am boycotting purchasing RP until RIOT adds an east coast server. The difference in ping between east coast and west coast players is enormous. West coast players are capable of flashing away from a Katarina as soon as she Shunpos onto them, while the best any east coast player can hope for is to flash after they are hit by katarina's E-W combo. The latency on the east coast means there isn't enough time to react to the shunpo alone, because by the time your Client registers the shunpo Katarina has already used her W. The servers don't need to be divded up, as I understand the argument of not wanting to favor one region over another, or wanting to split the community into two. However, things cannot stay the way they are either. Create an East coast server and have matches be hosted on both the east and west coast servers at random. This would mean that every player in North America would have to deal with the same disadvantage at various times, and even out of the playing field. Somebody posted a infographic in another thread that showed the average ping of players in each Ranked Tier. As players got into gold and higher, the average latency got lower and lower. Platinum players have an average latency of 50-80, while diamond and above are all below 60.

good for you, just boycott the game its unplayable anyways, fuck those greedy assholes in la.

there wont be a season 6 you wont get ec servers.

URackDisciprine5 votes

I have noticed that this may not be an issue with Riot nearly as much as it is with the fact that they are utilizing Amazon infrastructure.

Traceroutes consistently time out once they hit amazon IP addresses.

mikeylee24245 votes

+1, make some dam east coast servers

pro crastinat0r5 votes

it is my personal opinion that riot closed GD to end the 1074 page thread asking for east coast severs (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2277789&page=1075) where they repeatedly promised to do something about the issue and then would go silent for months at a time.

Long Dong Wukong1 votes

Yeah, and it's back.

DaCush5 votes

I vote for a centralized NA server. Rather not have an east coast and a west coast one to split the playerbase and have team builder wait times of 40+min for a support.

hOrnn4 votes

theres no question, look at challenger, look at the pros.

MtDewWarrior3 votes

I love the attention this is getting, 186 votes in favor of this being a serious problem out of 213. That is quite a damning statement.

Long Dong Wukong4 votes

It happens every time, they usually end up ignoring the topic completely until the fuss dies out for the time being, or a random Rioter drops in for standard PR bullshit that they spew like a broken record.

It's not often that a company completely loses credibility in a particular area to its playerbase, but this latency discrepancy that they have thus far refused to fix is causing them to have a nice little community disconnect here.

TenSlashTen1 votes

haha disconnect u funny :^)

bro

Zarxis3 votes

Bumping for justice. Riot has had what, four years to deal with this issue? They're obviously aware of it. This is inexcusable.

Pudii Pudii3 votes

You know it took me a year and a half to realize why I couldn't play champions like Vayne, Riven, or Any skill shot based champion for that matter. I live in Maryland and play with around 85-120 ping and I learned pretty quick that I was horrible at ranged champions, even now I can't cs properly or hit skill shots.

I'm platinum 4/5 (don't know if I decayed yet or not due to work) and I play champions like Lux/Xerath at an unranked or bronze level. I've gotten to platinum playing strictly melee champions with simple mechanics like Fizz/Akali/Fiora/Pantheon because I can't keep up with the other players with lower ping.

Over the summer I actually had the chance to visit a few friends in California and was able to play a few games with them. The difference was like night and day, mind you that I play on an older laptop that gets around 25 FPS. The game felt smooth and unsluggish, I could land and dodge skills shots much easier and I felt like I had full control over my champion. I remember telling them that if had this 45 ping. All the time that I would easily reach plat 1 or even diamond in a matter of days/weeks.

I doubt east coast servers ever really come but if you ever get the chance to play on low ping even if it's just a tourney or something I would go for it. I seriously think my overall gaming experience was unbelievably better with lower ping. To actually be able to enjoy the game for what it is, and not worry about the delay.

MtDewWarrior3 votes

I really wish I knew what riot had been up to for 2 years after their last PR bs on the whole centralized servers thing. I really hate how gamers are always taken advantage of by companies after we make them big. Had I of known in S1 that this game was going to be this big and still not provide a decent service I probably wouldn't have been so supportive and just went to a different game.

CommanderSheperd2 votes

While I'm not dismissing the validity of your concern, I would just like to add that I live on the West Coast and routinely experience ping of around 110-210.

Long Dong Wukong1 votes

That's your internet or you live in northwest Canada, like, way up there.

Cruxious2 votes

I as a East coaster think it is a big concern, however looking at what Riot has done(nothing) I voted no in Riots standpoint because we will be lucky if we see ping improvements by season 9 let alone 5.

NeroUS2 votes

Let's get another 1000 pages.

DaejinTye1 votes

Riot doesn't have it as a priority. Period.

That being said, I dunno what you think it's like playing on the west coast, but the advantage isn't as big as you guys make it out to be...

When I'm lagging, I can dodge skillshots all damn day. However, when the ping is a solid 44 and there is no delay... I will see the game play as if it was beta... Skillshots snapping to enemies a good 2-3 inches away, going through some targets not showing up until AFTER being hit, etc.

Playing on the west coast with no lagg is a disadvantage in itself (not as bad as east coast, but still a disadvantage) since my ability to read and react is 100% negated by the fact I don't see what is actually happening.

It's more about how the game is coded right now... Which is why I would like a multi-server platform that can localize the lagg for all players and put us on an even playing field. I can handle small delays, but having clearly missed skillshots hit more often than not is too much.

Long Dong Wukong19 votes

but the advantage isn't as big as you guys make it out to be...

Sub 40ms~ vs 120ms~ is the difference between whether you or the guy shooting at you dies first in an FPS. Whose trigger pull actually got to the server first? It's whether or not you escape behind that wall or WHAT THE FUCK I WAS BEHIND THE WALL ARE YOU SERIOUS.

I'd go so far as to say over about 70ms is unplayable in a fps.

God forbid you try to play a fighting game in lag. That shit is atrocious if you don't have a perfect connection to the person. A few frames of lag is unplayable.

But I am expected to just magically be okay with some people dealing with 4x less lag than I am purely because the company deemed it so. Nah, fuck that, Rito.

DaejinTye2 votes

First of all, this isn't a FPS, so quit talking about FPS's.

Second, that shit happens at 20 ping as well. (See Counter-Strike and Call of Duty as the worst offenders.)

Third, you're only ranting, not bring up any argument related to the topic at all.

Fourth, mindless bitching about other genres of games doesn't help your cause. It only serves to prove your own ignorance of League.

Long Dong Wukong6 votes

Nice try and all, but ping effects a MOBA every bit as much as it effects any other game, less so than a fighting game, but maybe more than an FPS.

If you can't comprehend the difference between seeing Lux throw a Q, and stepping out of the way at 20 ping, and seeing Lux throw a Q, and telling your character to move out of the way but it still catches the back of your hitbox(and then you die) at 120 ping, then that's your problem friendo.

This game requires reactions, there's an uneven playing field that makes over 50% of the NA playerbase slower by default, and the company doesn't care about it.

It doesn't really matter if you understand it or not, sorry.

DaejinTye1 votes

I've already acknowledged there is a problem with the server situation and that the East Coast is at a greater disadvantage... However, the point you and everyone else on the east coast is missing here is that fact that all of that happens to players on the west coast as well. Specifically the examples used from other genres all occur with players who are under 20 ping and don't suffer from any lag.

The fact of the matter is, the server stability is the problem above all else, and it's not night and day when playing on the west coast. I would gladly give up the lack of delay if it meant a more stable game with less random happenings to due "lag spikes." I would also love it if what I saw on screen was actually happening in the game, but that's another matter.

The funny part of this is... I've agreed with the you guys on the issue itself, but you keep trying to argue that you specifically have it so much worse than everyone else... You don't. You're not special... It's a problem we all have to varying degrees. I run at 44 ping and still have shit ton of issues that all stem from lag because the servers are just that bad. I've also ran league at 120 ping and the game experience was almost the same. A slight increase in delay and skillshots were a tad bit more accurate, but overall the experience was on par with what I experienced at 44 ping.

You can try to argue with whatever you want, but it's not a free utopia of league on the west coast as you're trying to claim it to be.

Long Dong Wukong2 votes

all of that happens to players on the west coast as well

Yeah, cool. I don't care about your internet hiccups. I, and we for the most part, am talking about the uneven playing field that Riot almost approves of at this point. That thing that they spew PR horse shit about every so often and then never do anything about. As explained, they don't actually give a shit because they don't get anything but a little customer satisfaction out of it, and nowadays customer satisfaction is nearly a non-factor.

To reiterate, how shitty Riot's servers are has nothing to do with this discussion.

You also mentioned how skillshots were less accurate and the game experience was only almost the same, aka different. Yeah, that's the point. You have 3x the base delay that you normally had at 120ms. Enjoy getting barely clipped by Lux ults or Morgana Q's or Thresh hooks, etc. That's the difference between 44 and 120 ping.

High-mechanic champions are simply wastes of time to play at high elos on the East Coast. You literally are prevented from playing something like Yasuo to their proper potential because everything you do is delayed 4x+ as much as the player in California right next to the server. You actually can't play them because you'll get your shit stomped. You can't windwall spells a West Coast player can. You can't dodge spells with E that a West Coast player can. You can't harass and instantly E back out like a West Coast player can. etc.

It's overwhelmingly blatant on high skillcap characters because past about 60ms, you simply don't get to play them properly.

Riot will more than likely never actually fix this because they don't give a shit, but they don't even have to actually move their servers. All they have to do is place a baseline delay of 100ms. Anyone below that bumps to 100ms, anyone above it doesn't gain the extra delay. I don't know if DotA still does it, but DotA used to do this all the way up to like 200ms to may the even for 99% of the playerbase. But I doubt they'd ever do it because most other regions like KR are running at basically sub 20 ping for everyone, and just bumping all of NA to 100 would be like Riot admitting that they can't compete with Korea's setup.

DaejinTye1 votes

Yeah, cool. I don't care about your internet hiccups.

So in other words, you don't care about the servers... Or their stability... Or anything... You also can't read. Again, the ONLY thing you do is bitch "Poor me. POOR ME."

If you can't address the entire issue, just shut the fuck up. Only proving your own ignorance right now. My internet doesn't hiccup... It's not random latency issues... It's just how the game is right now. Sounds like you just need to work on improving rather than bitching.

Long Dong Wukong1 votes

Lol. I go through the trouble of actually replying to your bullshit and you accuse ME of being the one that can't read.

Enjoy that advantage, West Coast player. I know it's hard for you to accept that you're playing an easier game than over half of the rest of the community. But I understand.

Can't even differentiate between a discussion about latency and a discussion about server stability. Sad times bro, sad times.

Regardless, if you don't want to feel like you have a huge advantage then that's your deal, your inability to understand that you're playing an easier game doesn't really change the issue, so I guess it doesn't matter.

It's not even a debate, so I'm not sure what you're really arguing about. 40ms is 3x faster baseline reaction time than 120ms is. There is no debate, you're just making strawmen out of the fact that the servers suck ass to try and argue about latency for some reason. It doesn't work.

Penguin Eclipse1 votes

Riot will more than likely never actually fix this because they don't give a shit, but they don't even have to actually move their servers. All they have to do is place a baseline delay of 100ms. Anyone below that bumps to 100ms, anyone above it doesn't gain the extra delay. I don't know if DotA still does it, but DotA used to do this all the way up to like 200ms to may the even for 99% of the playerbase. But I doubt they'd ever do it because most other regions like KR are running at basically sub 20 ping for everyone, and just bumping all of NA to 100 would be like Riot admitting that they can't compete with Korea's setup.

Artificially increasing ping is actually something that a lot of games used to do unintentionally. Age of Empires I & II for example used a p2p method for multiplayer. Each game a mini network would be setup and the entire network would function as fast as the slowest connection. It was a pretty fair setup but unfortunately very unreliable. Although a lot of improvements have been made since the 90's, I don't think artificially increasing ping, either intentionally or unintentionally, is the answer in 2014.

Keep in mind that Korea is smaller than the size of Kentucky. Riot doesn't even have to try to have a low latency in Korea because the data has such a short distance to travel. With a central location in the US, they could probably achieve <60ms to the continental US assuming they can overcome some of the inefficient backbone routing shortfalls. DSL users might have a higher latency due to the nature of DSL. Korea will always have it better than us but we can certainly improve upon what we have.

Xonra14 votes

Riot doesn't have it as a priority. Period.

That being said, I dunno what you think it's like playing on the west coast, but the advantage isn't as big as you guys make it out to be...

When I'm lagging, I can dodge skillshots all damn day. However, when the ping is a solid 44 and there is no delay... I will see the game play as if it was beta... Skillshots snapping to enemies a good 2-3 inches away, going through some targets not showing up until AFTER being hit, etc.

Playing on the west coast with no lagg is a disadvantage in itself (not as bad as east coast, but still a disadvantage) since my ability to read and react is 100% negated by the fact I don't see what is actually happening.

It's more about how the game is coded right now... Which is why I would like a multi-server platform that can localize the lagg for all players and put us on an even playing field. I can handle small delays, but having clearly missed skillshots hit more often than not is too much.

As someone who has lived on the West Coast (Seattle) AND the East Coast(North Carolina now) since I started playing this game in 2011, I can call b.s. on your claim that "the advantage isn't as big as you guys make it out to be". Any person who says this line OBVIOUSLY has no clue how much of a disadvantage it really is.

Like I tell anyone, I actually know what I'm talking about as far as all the talk goes with ping, networks, blah blah blah, because I have a degree in Networking, and while 130 ping isn't the end of the world, it does make a significant difference.

In a game where when you press a button, expect an ability to hit at x time according to your own reaction time, and it doesn't sync up with that, but the person you are playing against doesn't have that issue, skill vs skill matchups no longer apply and it becomes much more about luck than it ever should (which should be never in 99% of cases).

Sparkfun1 votes

Welcome to the league of Draven LIES brought to you by rito an oregon company

Long Dong Wukong1 votes

El Bumpo even though it doesn't really work on these new shit boards

Hetchy1 votes

Quasi-bump.

Mahnigguh1 votes

i have played fro years and never noticed the "east coast " thing

Ðoubleamp1 votes

bump

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