What in your mind makes a Juggernaut?

EbonyBladeJ88·Feb 8, 2018·13 votes·2,002 views

The power fantasy (A term I've seen thrown around upon occasion by Rioters and others on these boards) I've always understood them to be is playing as this big, buff warrior, or some colossal being that comes barreling down at you with steps that make the ground quake. Oftentimes with this hypothetical colossus wielding some huge weapon (Doesn't really matter what, as long as it's Big and powerful looking) that they use to just completely CRUSH those that dare get in their way.

What makes a Juggernaut (Or any other champion that can fill that above-listed "Power Fantasy")?

83 Comments

Malicious MetalFeb 8, 201813 votes

Lumbering colossi that can singlehandedly dictate the flow of a fight.

Gameplay wise I always felt that Juggernaut should be balanced around two core weaknesses: -Low mobility that makes them hard to maneuver through a teamfight and gives them lacking backline access -Telegraphed, so their damage can be outplayed, but on the flipside it SHOULD reward skillful play on the Juggernaut's part.

Something I do NOT think should be a Juggernaut weakness is being restricted to MELEE range since it makes them overly opressive against other melee champions and really binary in their success/failure patterns in higher tier play where people know how to kite.

Their threat range should be around 300-500ish range, so kinda battlemage-ish but as I said, be inherently loaded with outplay potential on both sides.

Teridax68Feb 8, 20182 votes

One thing that I think could be worth exploring is that, in exchange for juggernauts having some of the lowest mobility around, they should also have access to some of the best CC counters in the game. A defining feature of the original juggernaut, i.e. the lumbering wagon of death, was that it's also meant to be literally unstoppable -- Juggernaut in X-Men/Marvel Comics is completely built around this notion as well. In a League that has become saturated with crowd control, this could offer the higher-end skill expression that juggernauts as a class so desperately need, as windows of CC resistance/immunity are known to meaningfully express skill and allow for much more agency at higher elos. I also am not quite sure why it has so little presence in League's current juggernaut roster either: when a champion takes so long to move towards their target, they're already telegraphing themselves hard enough that one shouldn't be easily able to take control away from them. Rather, one should take care to avoid their slow strikes, and focus them once they get in range before they go into raid boss mode and wipe the whole team (and I agree that juggernauts, as a subclass, should be able to affect the entire enemy team at a time, provided they're within a reasonable distance).

Malicious MetalFeb 8, 20186 votes

Precisely. People tend to suggest anti cc items but I feel Juggernauts should have inbuilt ways to counter the plethora of crowd control currently in the game. In a skillful manner that allows for windows of power-

Garen's W change was a step in the right direction and I'm looking forward what Riot might have in store for others of his ilk.

5000000000000000Feb 8, 20182 votes

I was hoping someone would mention Garen! He doesn't have a good kit overall, but his W is a really cool ability. We need more CC immunity/resistances in the game for frontliners.

RalanrFeb 8, 20181 votes

Honestly I like that idea more. Giving items the power to ignore CC opens them up for more abuse.

But giving immobile champions who have no dash or Mobility ways to ignore or reduce CC in their kits (kinda like how Irelia originally worked but she has a dash so it’s annoying) would make them a bigger threat in fights for peeling.

It reminds me how a lot of characters in Smite have abilities that make them CC immune for a short while. I don’t play Smite at all so I cannot really say if I’m understanding their reasoning correctly.

IsalvaFeb 8, 20182 votes

I play Smite a lot. (Currently 715 hours on it) The reason why most characters are CC immuned during their ultimates is because it's their defining ability, their ultimates are their biggest damage, power, and impact they have in a fight. Also for Juggernauts thing about being resistent to CC and all that, here's a passive from my favorite God in Smite of all time. Anubis.

Anubis's Passive Sorrow: When Anubis deals damage with his ability he gains a stack of sorrow increasing bonus spell vamp by 20% (capping out at 60%). For each stack of Sorrow Anubis also has 20/30/60% Crowd Control Reduction.

      Yeah, a MAGE of all things has a passive to increase their own survivability. That's only because Anubis is so damn squishy its kinda necessary, but imagine this passive but on a Juggernaut in League instead.

FlameHalbrdOkidoFeb 8, 20182 votes

{quoted}

One thing that I think could be worth exploring is that, in exchange for juggernauts having some of the lowest mobility around, they should also have access to some of the best CC counters in the game. A defining feature of the original juggernaut, i.e. the lumbering wagon of death, was that it's also meant to be literally unstoppable -- Juggernaut in X-Men/Marvel Comics is completely built around this notion as well. In a League that has become saturated with crowd control, this could offer the higher-end skill expression that juggernauts as a class so desperately need, as windows of CC resistance/immunity are known to meaningfully express skill and allow for much more agency at higher elos. I also am not quite sure why it has so little presence in League's current juggernaut roster either: when a champion takes so long to move towards their target, they're already telegraphing themselves hard enough that one shouldn't be easily able to take control away from them. Rather, one should take care to avoid their slow strikes, and focus them once they get in range before they go into raid boss mode and wipe the whole team (and I agree that juggernauts, as a subclass, should be able to affect the entire enemy team at a time, provided they're within a reasonable distance).

Morde could def use form CC immunity

EbonyBladeJ88Feb 8, 20183 votes

A good response.

As some have said, this question could apply to both gameplay and thematic ideals. I just wanted to get other player's opinions on the matter, and I've certainly gotten them!

Each one of the Juggernaut has a sense of "Telegraph" to their actions. For example...

Darius : Q (Ever since the Jugg update) is delayed, allowing attentive players to adapt. E is also slightly telegraphed, as the pull is not instantaneous. His R is most effective when he has Noxian Might.

Yorick : His Mist-Walkers only focus a target if they are marked by his E, and the same applies to the Maiden.

Nasus : He must build up his Q stacks, and they are visible to friends and foes by clicking on him, which can help a player gauge his threat-level in relation to them.

Illaoi : Her potential for trades is situational, as she must be around her passive tentacles to really be able to do her damage.

Mordekaiser : His Q is a 1,2,3 in rapid succession, so if a player can put some distance between him and them, it loses it's effectiveness. (You probably could come up with something better for him than me, but I tried)

Garen : Ever since the Jugg update, he usually wants to focus whoever his current Villain is, and he also wants to have a singular target to maximize the effectiveness of his E.

Trundle : He wants to fight in his E zone, as it provides him passive bonuses, as well as get his Q AD Buff.

DrMundo : He wants to keep you close so his W burn can wear you down, commonly accomplishing this by well-aimed Q cleavers.

Udyr : He usually opens with his Bear Stance, then switches to whichever next one best fits the current situation.

Urgot : He wants to mark you with his Q so that his W will prioritize you. If that isn't enough, his E can do it if he lands it, and the dash is very telegraphed.

Volibear : He tries to keep you in the fight with his toss, so he can hopefully wear you down for his W execute.

Shyvana : She can only ult when at full Rage, so the player knows when her windows of power are.

You're also right there, outplay potential needs to exist. It often comes in the form of kiting, but there can be others.

ArkenStormFeb 8, 20182 votes

I sense a Mordekaiser player. I agree with you. :D

DragonSheaFeb 8, 20183 votes

{quoted}

I sense a player. I agree with you. :D

You must be new because Malicious Metal is Mordekaiser

NevrankroatonFeb 8, 20181 votes

Honest opinion but I am not sure I really dig the "dictate the flow of a fight" idea with a juggernaut. I feel that Juggernaut are champions with high impact, but dicting the flow of a fight mean that there is way too much pressure coming from them (which isn't really the case atm), that you need to play around them. I feel they are more like a huge threat you need to avoid, which is a way of dicting the fight but they don't "choose" it, contrary to some mage or ADC who, in my opinion, will control the fights.

While they have problems and stuff, I feel juggernauts are, at the moment, in the fantasy I see them. Telegraphed, high damage and high impact. The problem is more of their viability outside of the laning phase and how oppressive they feel during the laning phase.

DragonSheaFeb 8, 20186 votes

What makes a juggernaut? My man, that is easy considering my love for them.

A jugg is a champ with either no or limited ability to dash. They are either slow or fast but they are champs that do you NOT want near you because they can deal colossal damage.

They are split into two type, Raid bosses that have insane abilities and ults and maintain a killzone that you don't want to enter unless you can dance around them. And Freight Trains that want to run up and chop you to pieces with MS boosters and rapid attacks.

In terms of gameplay Juggs (should) be tough and powerful but slow champs that don't mind eating up a few hits to get to there target and have the sustain and durability to make anyone void their bowels.

A good Jugg know when to engage a fight, a bad one will be at a disadvantage or even dead if they think they can just walk up and try to melee anyone anytime they want.

AlienPrimateFeb 8, 20185 votes

Strong dueling power Low mobility (outside of high movement speed) Low CC High damage

Darius DrMundo Garen Illaoi Mordekaiser Nasus Olaf Shyvana Trundle Udyr Urgot Volibear Warwick Yorick

Chembaron YamadaFeb 8, 20182 votes

Warwick? ',:I

I see people bring him up in some discussions about juggernauts, but why? In my opinion, he is clearly a diver.

EbonyBladeJ88Feb 8, 20181 votes

Warwick sadly moves too quickly to count as a Juggernaut. The speed boost from his W, as well as the leap of his Ult disqualifies him.

The idea of a more bestial-style one could be applied to Udyr though, as shown with the conversation between me and AlienPrimate. (I would think his VGU would probably put more towards that theme, but who knows, we'll see when the time comes for his VGU.)

Done25Feb 8, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Warwick sadly moves too quickly to count as a Juggernaut. The speed boost from his W, as well as the leap of his Ult disqualifies him.

The idea of a more bestial-style one could be applied to Udyr though, as shown with the conversation between me and AlienPrimate. (I would think his VGU would probably put more towards that theme, but who knows, we'll see when the time comes for his VGU.)

Bull. WW is 100% a Juggernaut. His move speed boost only works when out of combat, and his R can be body blocked. He's no Nocturne/Irelia/Camille/Lee Sin.

EbonyBladeJ88Feb 8, 20181 votes

Look, I'm just going by the sub-class listings. According to Riot, he's a Diver. And, considering that he's gotten one VGU, he probably won't be getting another any time soon that might make him into a Juggernaut.

But if we want to get into the nitty-gritty, let's look at some things about him:

He has two forms of CC, his fear from his E, and the suppress from his Ult. Now, granted, the suppress only applies if the player successfully lands the skill, but it still IS a form of CC. Juggernauts usually only have one form of CC that they can apply. Darius's pull, Garen's Silence, etc.

I'll give you that he has sustain, which is often something many of the Juggernauts have in their kits. Such as Illaoi's heal when hitting an enemy with a tentacle, Trundle's heal when a unit near him dies, Mundo and Garen's boosted regen, and so on.

Now, that situational movement speed is exactly that; situational or out of combat. But, Juggernauts as a whole are slow to get around. They do not have innate speed boosts or gap-closers (With the possible exception of Illaoi's W) in their kits. It often comes from their items ( item 3071 or item 3078 rage effect, or item 3742 gradual MS boost). When Warwick has access to his W's boost, it makes him move MUCH faster than a Juggernaut. Juggernauts are always slow, and often depend on their CC to keep targets within their grasp.

Chembaron YamadaFeb 8, 20181 votes

Additionally, Warwick is way harder to peel than a juggernaut if he reached his target, thanks to his Q making him shortly immune to displacements and his ability to follow enemy movement with it (even flash).

And sustain, while oftenly found on juggernauts, is not that uncommon on divers as well. XinZhao Olaf RekSai Kled Kayn Renekton Irelia

EbonyBladeJ88Feb 8, 20181 votes

That's true. Didn't factor in that part. The sustain being pretty common among Divers is true as well. It's a good thing there are other community members here to point these things out when we posters forget them!

Done25Feb 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Look, I'm just going by the sub-class listings. According to Riot, he's a Diver. And, considering that he's gotten one VGU, he probably won't be getting another any time soon that might make him into a Juggernaut.

While they have gotten better of the the years, Riot is notoriously bad at classifying their champs according to their own rules.

But if we want to get into the nitty-gritty, let's look at some things about him:

He has two forms of CC, his fear from his E, and the suppress from his Ult. Now, granted, the suppress only applies if the player successfully lands the skill, but it still IS a form of CC. Juggernauts usually only have one form of CC that they can apply. Darius's pull, Garen's Silence, etc.

Both of his CC have very high costs to them though. His Fear requires that he ends his damage reduction to use it, and he has to land a slow moving skill shot ult to get the suppression. Not only that, but the suppression CCs himself as well ala. Renekton and Malzahar. So yea, he pays heavily for his CC,

I'll give you that he has sustain, which is often something many of the Juggernauts have in their kits. Such as Illaoi's heal when hitting an enemy with a tentacle, Trundle's heal when a unit near him dies, Mundo and Garen's boosted regen, and so on.

Now, that situational movement speed is exactly that; situational or out of combat. But, Juggernauts as a whole are slow to get around. They do not have innate speed boosts or gap-closers (With the possible exception of Illaoi's W) in their kits. It often comes from their items ( or rage effect, or gradual MS boost). When Warwick has access to his W's boost, it makes him move MUCH faster than a Juggernaut. Juggernauts are always slow, and often depend on their CC to keep targets within their grasp.

If out of combat movement speed was enough then anyone with Mobility Boots could become a Diver. And you're not entirely right. Darius used to get a free speed boost from bleeding foes on his old passive, and Trundle has a whole "Look how fast I am!" arena he can make. Garen his his self boost on his Q and Mundo's ult massively boosts his move speed while it's up. What Juggernauts tend to lack are blinks/dashes.

Warwick does have his ult, but I say this simply isn't enough to put him up with the real divers who have individual target access. Let's compare him to say...Jarvan. WW's ult can easily be body blocked by a beefy front line. Meanwhile, Jarvan goes E-Q-R and instantly has access to his desired target. Nocturne just hits RR. Irellia can QQ off a minion. Camille can EER. Xin goes ER. Etc etc.

What WW can do is make himself really effing hard to kill with built in damage reduction from his howl and the sustain from passive+Q. You know what other champs are really effing hard to kill due to their meaty nature and built in sustain? Olaf, Mundo, Darius, Volibear, etc.

EbonyBladeJ88Feb 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

While they have gotten better of the the years, Riot is notoriously bad at classifying their champs according to their own rules.

That's something on their heads, and I'm not going to get into that, because neither you or I work for them.

Both of his CC have very high costs to them though. His Fear requires that he ends his damage reduction to use it, and he has to land a slow moving skill shot ult to get the suppression. Not only that, but the suppression CCs himself as well ala. Renekton and Malzahar. So yea, he pays heavily for his CC,

The fact nonetheless stands that he has more than one form of CC. Also, that last sentence on this part ended on a comma. Was there something more you were going to add and then forgot? Not making fun of you for it, just pointing it out.

^

If out of combat movement speed was enough then anyone with Mobility Boots could become a Diver. And you're not entirely right. Darius used to get a free speed boost from bleeding foes on his old passive, and Trundle has a whole "Look how fast I am!" arena he can make. Garen his his self boost on his Q and Mundo's ult massively boosts his move speed while it's up. What Juggernauts tend to lack are blinks/dashes.

Well, the speed boost Darius once had is now gone, and at least at this current point in time, it doesn't look like it's going to be re-implemented any time soon.

Trundle only gets that MS boost when inside his zone, which, while being rather large, is not inescapable, especially if he screws up his pillar placement.

Garen's speed boost cleanses slows but does not make him immune to any additional slows after activation of his Q. So those that can apply a consistent slow (For Example Ashe , or fellow Juggernaut Trundle ) are the stuff of Garen's nightmares.

Warwick does have his ult, but I say this simply isn't enough to put him up with the real divers who have individual target access. Let's compare him to say...Jarvan. WW's ult can easily be body blocked by a beefy front line. Meanwhile, Jarvan goes E-Q-R and instantly has access to his desired target. Nocturne just hits RR. Irellia can QQ off a minion. Camille can EER. Xin goes ER. Etc etc.

You said it right there above. What Juggernauts tend to lack are blinks/dashes. The fact that the ult is a Dash/Leap, which no Juggernaut can claim to have (Only the MS Boosts or other CC they might have, such as pulls, silences, etc) makes him too mobile to be a Juggernaut. Also, the thing that SatomiKun pointed out below that his Q makes him briefly immune to displacements and it follows enemy movement regardless of what they do adds even more weight to the "Diver" part of his "Fighter Scale" than the "Juggernaut" side.

What WW can do is make himself really effing hard to kill with built in damage reduction from his howl and the sustain from passive+Q. You know what other champs are really effing hard to kill due to their meaty nature and built in sustain? Olaf, Mundo, Darius, Volibear, etc.

Juggernauts often have strong built-in defenses. Usually from high base Armor and MR, but as shown by many build paths, that isn't enough, as they'll often buy additional things item 3143 item 3065 and so on). Divers, while not as squishy as say Mages, or Marksmen, don't have that same level of innate tankiness. They also have to go for a more "Middle-of-the-road" build, or equal defense and offense (Unless they're doing extraordinarily well), while Juggernauts usually only need one offensive item, and can go full tank afterwards most of the time.

But, I'll say that we've had a good discussion on the matter, and if nothing else, let's end it with this: Let's agree to disagree. Have a good day and best of luck in your future games! [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Lord of MathFeb 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Strong dueling power Low mobility (outside of high movement speed) Low CC High damage

high movement speed? What are you even talking about? Mordekaiser

DragonSheaFeb 8, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord of Math,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zNcQAuZY,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2018-02-08T06:52:17.942+0000)

high movement speed? What are you even talking about?

Freight Train's. They are the ones that have High MS.

Morde is a Raid Boss Jugg.

Baron BarianFeb 8, 20184 votes

A healing ward, a spinning blade, and an Omnislash ult.

EbonyBladeJ88Feb 8, 20181 votes

By way of guesstimation, are you talking about Illaoi , Garen and... can't quite put a face to that third one. I'm not doubting one of them can fit, but my brain's just not making the right connection. The Omnislash ult reminds me more of Yasuo for some reason with all of his fancy slashes (Q, R and so on).

redniwediSFeb 8, 20183 votes

He's talking about the DotA hero named Juggernaut.

Baron BarianFeb 8, 20181 votes

Actually, I was making a Dota joke.

EbonyBladeJ88Feb 8, 20182 votes

RedniwediS explained that to me. But, in keeping with the idea...

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/157/180/712.gif

greekvandaLFeb 8, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron Barian,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zNcQAuZY,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-02-08T01:17:59.814+0000)

A healing ward, a spinning blade, and an Omnislash ult.

eks dee.

gabetheguyFeb 8, 20182 votes

I've always thought of them as a sort of "mighty glacier" type class. slow to get to the action, but when they do, hoo boy are you in for some fun times.

Moonfall SaberFeb 8, 20182 votes

KogMaw is a juggernaut

EbonyBladeJ88Feb 8, 20181 votes

Unfortunately, no. I'm being a stickler, and going only by those stated to be Juggernauts as listed in Riot's sub-class listings, as well as the LOL Wiki's section on Juggernauts (A sub-section of the Fighter page).

Moonfall SaberFeb 8, 20181 votes

I was just joking but do you remember when if you went near him you just died lol

EbonyBladeJ88Feb 8, 20182 votes

Yes. He melts you like you're going out of style.

KogMaw : Oh, hi! You're going to come in my AA range? Why thank you!

{YOU HAVE BEEN SLAIN!}

(Insert any Juggernaut here): http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/CaogEdw.gif

MordepoolFeb 8, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moonfall Saber,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zNcQAuZY,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-02-08T03:00:28.165+0000)

is a juggernaut

Best Juggernaut of season 7. Arguably

His thematics are way off though.

xelakerFeb 8, 20182 votes

http://cdn.hitfix.com/photos/5515638/Juggernaut.jpg

EbonyBladeJ88Feb 8, 20182 votes

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/929/167/515.gif

Modl Ryden lFeb 8, 20182 votes

As the name implies, they have a lot of 'momentum' to their abilities. When each abilities lands another one will follow delivering a lot of punishment for allowing their skills to follow through.

examples:

Garen if you let him strike his Q, he will follow up with E and R. Darius a well placed Q will turn the tides in a duel giving him time to build up his passive to lane max damage ulti. Sion if his shout lands he can follow up with decimating blow to hold you down longer. Illaoi her character is the theme of juggernaut. Landing her E allows her to send damage whether or not you're in range. If she does land a Q on you, the rest of the tentacles will follow. Urgot landing Q can confirm the knock up for his E following a devastiting purge to set up his R for a kill.

Chembaron YamadaFeb 8, 20181 votes

Sion is considered a Vanguard, not a Juggernaut. But I agree with the rest of your statement.

Done25Feb 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Sion is considered a Vanguard, not a Juggernaut. But I agree with the rest of your statement.

Which is stupid. Not only does his kit follow a Juggernaut pattern, but he even has it in his title... (The Undead Juggernaut)

Chembaron YamadaFeb 8, 20181 votes

I have to disagree with the juggernaut pattern. He has tons of CC to keep you locked down, something that no other juggernaut has. If a juggernaut has any hard CC, it's usually just lasting a short time like Darius' pull, Urgots E or Shyvanas ult.

And juggernauts are huge damage threats even if they just build 1 offensive item and the rest tank. Sion can not keep up with that damage potential in my opinion. He can deal tons of damage, but he has to build quite some offensive items to do so, giving up tankiness.

His playstyle is way closer to an initiation tank, which are vanguards. Out of curiosity: would you consider Rammus a juggernaut as well?

Done25Feb 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I have to disagree with the juggernaut pattern. He has tons of CC to keep you locked down, something that no other juggernaut has. If a juggernaut has any hard CC, it's usually just lasting a short time like Darius' pull, Urgots E or Shyvanas ult.

And juggernauts are huge damage threats even if they just build 1 offensive item and the rest tank. Sion can not keep up with that damage potential in my opinion. He can deal tons of damage, but he has to build quite some offensive items to do so, giving up tankiness.

His playstyle is way closer to an initiation tank, which are vanguards. Out of curiosity: would you consider Rammus a juggernaut as well?

Rammus is actually the perfect example of what a Vanguard should be. Near on demand initiation with reliable CC lock down.

Sion's CC is heavily gated. His Q need a full second to even knock up, and it needs two for the maximum effect. It also locks him in place and gets canceled by hard CC. His R is the same in that it need time to build up strength and gets stopped by the enemy front line. No only that, but he controls like a fat cow while he's using his ult. In exchange, he offers immense damage if he's allowed to run free, and becomes extremely hard to kill unless focused. Even if you do kill him his passive will just bring him back so he can do even more DPS before he finally kicks the bucket.

Meanwhile, Rammus: Can turn in a dime with his Q, his Taunt is instantaneous, and his R can potentially provide team fight wide CC for multiple seconds. However, Rammus's damage is abysmal. As soon as the ADC brings Cleanse or or QSS he loses a lot of his kill potential. Furthermore, if a team fight drags on he'll be forced to come out of his shell, thus making him vulnerable. Which means he wants fights to end ASAP.

Tl;Dr Sion is: Sluggish, has difficult to use CC, and does not want to be focused too hard due to how his shield works. However, he offer immense damage. Rammus: Fast, reliable CC, thrives in the middle of a team fight. However, he has low damage outside of his curl.

Juggernaut: Low mobility and bad CC in exchange for durability and damage. (Garen, Olaf, Trundle, WW, Darius, Volibear, Sion, Mundo.) Vanguard: High mobility and powerful CC in exchange for non-existent dps beyond their burst. (Rammus, Amumu, Sejuani, Maokai, Nautilus.)

Forhonor321Feb 8, 20182 votes

Juggernauts when it comes to me are essentially the kind of people/champs that don't necessarily move fast (except maybe with a few cases) but pack a punch when you fight them. That certain mix of damage and tankiness. To just take a beating, but still keep on coming a bit with a beating of their own.

In terms of outside references, D&D fighters or Dragon Age two handed warriors are typically what I think juggernauts are: heavily armored, in the front line, dealing shit loads of damage and providing a good amount of team support/CC.

To the actual game standards: low but some amount of CC, some sustain if possible, low mobility, good defenses, lots of damage (especially in duels), and typically melee or at least close ranged enough in the case of Urgot .

There are a few Juggernauts that feel a bit out of place though, like Mordekaiser since he's a bit too immobile and has no CC whatsoever (plus doesn't really build a lot of defensive items from what I can tell), Shyvana has a bit more of a diver aspect with her ult and no other CC outside of that, Udyr is probably the fastest out of all Juggernauts when he gets items and going, & Chogath is... just a mess at this point with a not so clear direction of what he is ( I mean is he still a tank, a juggernaut now, what is he?)

Point is: a juggernaut is suppose to feel like a walking tower of sorts. Slow, but powerful.

ArkenStormFeb 8, 20181 votes

I feel like the Urgot rework was spot on, honestly. I don't feel like he's broken, but I don't feel like he's weak either. item 3153 absolutely destroys him, and he doesn't do craptons of damage on his own unless you let him dance around you.

Chembaron YamadaFeb 8, 20181 votes

Since your discussion focuses on the thematic of a juggernaut, maybe it would be better to place it in Story, Art & Sound? Otherwise (like it seems) people focus on the gameplay elements of jugs too much.

Anyway, I agree that a juggernaut for me is that big, impressive giant, that gives you the feeling that he is able to crush you without effort, while you are not able to harm him.

The juggernaut subclass is well spread over the regions of the game and they are all different thematically, yet all give you exactly that feeling of being a living fortress. Something that slowly comes after you and your only way to survive is to run. (aka kiting)

Freljord: Volibear Trundle Beastly demigod of thunder and the king of the trolls, both showing the pretty primal theme of Freljord, yet terrifying if you would encounter them on the battle Noxus: Darius Noxian leader in heavy armor and with a giant axe Demacia: Garen Shyvana Basically Darius, but with a sword and a lady able to transform into a dragon Shadow Isles: Yorick Mordekaiser One is enslaving the dead bodies of many to flood the battlefield, the other enslaved the souls of his enemies while using metal magic Shurima: Nasus Giant ascended inspired by the Egyptian god of death Zaun: DrMundo Urgot Giant psychopath who heals every wound you inflict on him and a chemtech driven monster from a horror movie, trying to throw the city in chaos Bilgewater: Illaoi Buffed Priestess of a god, summoning ghost tentacles all over the place Ionia: Udyr Raging shaman using animal spirits to strengthen his already strong body, showing us the nature magic of his land Void: Chogath Gigantic void creature that grows by consuming stuff

They all show pretty well how an alpha predator in their environment might look like. That being said, I hope we get juggernauts from Mount Targon and Piltover some day.

It would be nice to see that fantasy from their side as well. I can't think of an aspect fitting there, some ideas?

Piltover could have some form of battle machine.... Maybe a hextech vehicle with heavy armor and weaponry, or someone wearing a heavy battle suit.

EbonyBladeJ88Feb 8, 20181 votes

True. Perhaps I should have put it there. Though, it hasn't been taken down or moved by the Mods yet, so I guess it could apply to both?

https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/disney/images/1/15/11_sheepish_grin_Lambert_the_Sheepish_Lion_1247016162_4_1951.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20170117233402

(Supposed to be a visual representation of a sheepish grin, just in case you get confused by it)

And I think that's the point I was getting at here.

WHERE could our next Juggernaut (New or Reworked) come from next?

In terms of Targon, I suppose some Celestial Aspect would have to fill the shoes. I know that Pantheon is War, so that's taken. Or, we'd just have to get something completely NEW that hasn't appeared or been established in Targon yet. I dunno, just spitballing here.

Now Piltover, your suggestions don't seem too far off, but I think Rumble already fills the "Battle-Suit" category. Not to say a new one couldn't be introduced, mind you, I just think that Riot would probably want to come up with something else.

Chembaron YamadaFeb 8, 20182 votes

Rumble resembles the suit idea quite alot, have to admit that. Unfortunately, I have a hard time imagining them to introduce a war machine from Piltover as well.

It's pretty hard to come up with a juggernaut design for that region. Do you have any more ideas?

AlienPrimateFeb 8, 20181 votes

I could argue that Taric is a Targonian juggernaut when built as a fighter. He has durability, high damage, can dual basically anyone who isn't Vayne, and he has no mobility. The only thing that might put him out of the juggernaut category is his stun, but Udyr has a stun, Darius has a pull, and Volibear has a flip.

Chembaron YamadaFeb 8, 20181 votes

Never played it, so don't get mad if I am wrong. But I kinda doubt that Taric will reach the damage and durability of a juggernaut if built like a fighter.

Juggernauts excel at both, I imagine that if Taric goes for a fighter build, he will either lack in damage or tankiness compared to a real juggernaut.

AlienPrimateFeb 8, 20181 votes

First two are full support builds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=14&v=sXZDlxvmPUU https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=50&v=OwFG6c2qUcc https://plays.tv/video/5a18a09ab9580642f8/i-nut?from=user https://youtu.be/GhQsu2t-mRE https://i.imgur.com/i3gkQ5p.gifv