So is Twitch in a good state?

esmelar·Oct 28, 2015·18 votes·9,951 views

Since he is not being considered for the Marksmen Update on the upcoming preseason changes.

53 Comments

RiotMeddlerOct 28, 201531 votes

There'll be a bunch of smaller changes to marksmen other than the 6 listed in preseason as well. In Twitch's case we're looking at a CD reset on his Q when a champion affected by his passive dies plus some clean up around stealth (entering stealth now cancels current attack orders to avoid immediate screwage, R breaks stealth on attack launch instead of when the spell's first pressed, giving a bit less response time).

On top of that there are also some significant item changes to marksmen items coming too, some of which should be pretty appealing on Twitch (Ghostblade changes for example that include it gaining increased AD).

esmelarOct 28, 20155 votes

Thank you, it is nice to know the smelly rat is getting look too. :)

WheatloafOct 29, 20151 votes

Far as I can tell, caster-type ADCs and Attack-Speed carries are gonna be breathing pretty heavy over these changes.

manbreeze09Oct 28, 20152 votes

what about ezreal?

SoMNiaOct 29, 20151 votes

Really not the place to ask...but look at this PBE thread. He's got a couple of lines in there. Nothing major. I think they're prepping him for the new Essence Reaver granting massive CDR when paired with crit chance.

http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/N7VZrAws-smaller-522-marksmen-changes-pbe-feedback-thread

CSDragonOct 28, 20155 votes

{quoted}

There'll be a bunch of smaller changes to marksmen other than the 6 listed in preseason as well. In Twitch's case we're looking at a CD reset on his Q when a champion affected by his passive dies plus some clean up around stealth (entering stealth now cancels current attack orders to avoid immediate screwage, R breaks stealth on attack launch instead of when the spell's first pressed, giving a bit less response time).

On top of that there are also some significant item changes to marksmen items coming too, some of which should be pretty appealing on Twitch (Ghostblade changes for example that include it gaining increased AD).

The 2 second nerf to his ult is REALLY huge.

VikíngOct 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

There'll be a bunch of smaller changes to marksmen other than the 6 listed in preseason as well.

Does this mean Draven is getting a change? If so, mind saying what it is? :)

ShosukoOct 29, 20153 votes

I really think a reset on his ambush is a meh change unless ambush it's self gets a change.

It's not like a reset of rocket jump, or zed / lb jumping back to a previous location. Ambush can take up to 6 seconds to even matter. Ambush has a small MS boost only AFTER he's fully cloaked, and the invis only lasts a few seconds.

I was really hoping Twitch would get a rework with this. He has very little by way of pressure and escape.

I also think it's kinda dumb that for just a reset on ambush, which is meh... he's losing 2 seconds of his ult duration. This is going to bury the rat.

And I can't act like I'm happy with the ult not revealing him... I have NEVER hit my ult and chill. Considering there is zero advantage to activating it early, I think activating it INTO an attack is the only way I've ever activated it. I don't see this as a meaningful change in any way.

BeatzBoyFTWOct 29, 20151 votes

Is Urgot included in the Marksman Update? If yes, what would it be? If no, then when could he receive his rework.....?

OverpoweredSoapOct 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Is included in the Marksman Update? If yes, what would it be? If no, then when could he receive his rework.....?

Urgot Change Goals Restore Urgot R's defensive steroid function later in the game so that he doesn't get wrecked so hard by all the percent penetration floating around out there. R - Hyper-Kinetic Position Reverser No longer adds 60/90/120 Armor/MR Now adds 30/40/50% Damage Reduction

Got it from: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/10/preseason-2016-crests-horizon.html#more because I was too lazy to find it on the boards lol.

Kill Kenny KatOct 29, 20151 votes

Just to clarify, scoring a kill or assist will reset Twitch's Q which he can activate to get back into stealth with 1.5 sec delay? Or is it 4.5 sec?

SlytherinUmbreonOct 29, 20151 votes

both

Comrade NapoleonOct 29, 20154 votes

Do you really think he needs that huge nerf on his ult? if you want to shift his power towards his assassinations vs his TF power then buff his Q, the reset is good but not enough, a lower cloaking time or more movement speed or increased invisibility time.

iv been playing a lot of twtich on my other account, i enjoy him a lot but he is defiantly on the weaker side.

WulfyOct 29, 20151 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/m8KQ7UV2-really-still-not-reverting-spray-and-pray

SlytherinUmbreonOct 29, 20151 votes

Please re-evaluate Twitch's overall strength with these changes though :x Even with this buff, Ambush is a pretty weak ability and not a reliable escape and this definitely isn't an even trade for the 2 seconds off of his ult. I know you're talking about item changes too, but Blade of the Ruined King and Infinity Edge are both getting nerfs and that's two really big hits to twitch's main buildpaths: BotRK Shred and Crit.

NavyDiveaOct 29, 20151 votes

Biggest concern atm is the short ult duration, once used will it only start on the first attack or once its cast? And in all honesty, if you want to give him a reset as an assassin make it his E.

spyofheavensOct 28, 201513 votes

Could this be considered for Twitch? I think Twitch W does no provide much damage or utility I though it would be nice for it to be more than a slow if used correctly. His new W will be like Singed's W.

W- Danger Zone Twitch creates a quarantine zone in the ground for 4 seconds slowing targets by 15/25/30/35/40% for 2 second and applies and additional effect depending on the number of stacks of Deadly Venom .

3 Stacks – the slow is increased by 15 % 4 Stacks – The target is rooted in the area by .75 segs or( the slow is increased by 25 %) 5 stacks – the target is rooted in the area by 1 sec 6 stack – The target is stuned by 1 sec

If Twitch uses his E while the objectives are still in the area the effect is increased by 30 %

PikmintsOct 28, 20159 votes

My group jokes about the state he's in now. No he's not an all-around terrible champ, but his weaknesses and strengths are so odd. It feels like his stealth puts him in the niche of a marksman/assassin, and stealth being a mechanic that Riot seems to never be happy with makes him even more of a problem. He has two steroids that allow him to burst down entire teams alone if fed, but his other basic abilities and passive feel underwhelming mechanically and numerically. His ranged assassin playstyle means that Riot has to give him low early game numbers, and his stealth means that he has to reserve a certain lack of counterplay. It's incredibly difficult in Twitch's current state to get fed, and since his items only increase his strength as much as one would expect for an adc, his role in a team is "be an adc that people won't expect coming as he tries to 1v1 people", even though there are adcs that specialize in burst and dueling that would be able to take him out in an even fight.

That being said, I personally hate supporting Twitch because laning phase I never expect to get any kills as he cant whittle people down with any worthwhile poke, and the strength of his Q + ult isn't enough to 2v2 two full health opponents. His slow isn't as reliable as I'd like it to be for someone with low mobility either. It feels very much like his strategy is just to farm, despite there being marksmen like Vayne and co. who scale far better with farm and are still able to kill in lane.

ShosukoOct 29, 20151 votes

Yeah I think Twitch really needs a full rework into a more cohesive kit. I'm thinking not really Sion level rework, but maybe like Ryze level.

SasogwaOct 28, 20155 votes

He will be changed by the item changes

AdanYEvaOct 28, 20155 votes

no, his early game is gutted, ambush is underwhelming unless he's compeleltely away from the enemy/dmg

cFlameOct 28, 20153 votes

Same thing with Varus. Somehow Corki got on the list, but for whatever reason Varus and Twitch are getting ignored.

SpongebobIsLifeOct 29, 20151 votes

most likely because Varus is getting a pretty good amount of spotlight in both professional and solo que play; however, he is being played as an ad caster rather than an ad bot. They do have some slight changes for his ult out though.

qetzelOct 28, 20153 votes

He will probably be touched gently but the point of the rework is to make marksmen different.

You already have a solid reason for picking Twitch - high assassination potential, particularly in the mid game. While he may need work, he already has a well defined - and among marksmen, unique - role.

InphernalOct 28, 20152 votes

Yeah he's seen a decent bit of play lately and his lategame is monstrous.

A Miss FortuneOct 28, 20153 votes

Twitch isn't really that scary late game. He lacks a lot of things a late game hypercarry has and unless he's fed he doesn't really do anything. His passive with 6 stacks, taking the full duration, at the passive's max rank does 216 true damage though this damage is also lowered if you take in consideration health regen and a health potion pretty much removes the passive off you.

An ADC with trashy AD steroids, almost no utility, almost no mobility, and one of the worst if not the worst early games can't really be considered scary late game or at all. Just play Vayne she's a viable Twitch.

My Waifu VanillaOct 28, 20152 votes

He can single handily win a teamfight though by capitalizing on poor positioning and works well in wombo combo comps that can lock a team down since AoE crits are AoE along with his rather high damage expunge. I am not saying he is good by any means but he DOES have his uses since he is also one of the few adcs than can roam early and get a kill if he goes undetected.

A Miss FortuneOct 28, 20155 votes

But why pick Twitch for Expunge when Kalista's Rend can do infinitely more damage than Twitch's?

And if you want a wombo combo champ, with the new buffs to MFs ult it does a ton of damage. Even Graves' ult is better for a wombo combo comp than Twitch's, because the enemy have to stand in a straight line. On top of that they take reduced damage, not that Twitch's E or passive do much to begin with.

Honesty Twitch as a champion from looking at his kit looks well rounded but he feels like Quinn in her CURRENT state. An ADC that just doesn't bring enough of anything to the table to be viable outside of a top lane bruiser, even pro Twitch players like Sneaky can't pull Twitch off and usually just feed so It's not like It's just bad players who don't understand Twitch.

qetzelOct 28, 20152 votes

But you don't pick Twitch for Expunge. Expunge is just a tool that helps him with what you pick him for - picking off targets out of position, whether it be through stealth and steroids in the midgame or through AOE in late game teamfights.

Specifically, Expunge helps with midgame assassinations.

A Miss FortuneOct 28, 20154 votes

Then what do you pick Twitch for?

True damage? Vayne is better. Teamfighting? Miss Fortune is better. Dueling? Sivir is better. CC? Ashe is better. Poke? Corki is better.

If you want to pick off targets out of position you definitely came to the wrong role because that's not what ADCs do and the ones that have been remarkably good at it (current Vayne, pre-rework Twitch) were extremely unbalanced. Even then why pick an ADC if you need to assassinate people, I can assure you there's plenty of both ranged and melee champions that can do it better and safer.

Axis the DragonOct 29, 20151 votes

Vayne also happens to be one of the best ADC duelists (Sivir would fit better as a teamfighter and hard engage)

Twitch can apply all of his autoattacks in a very large area (Kalista is limited by Runaan's, which affects only the closest enemies + her main target)

BiffoloOct 29, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0J6mydH,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-28T21:44:14.358+0000)

But why pick Twitch for Expunge when Kalista's Rend can do infinitely more damage than Twitch's?

And if you want a wombo combo champ, with the new buffs to MFs ult it does a ton of damage. Even Graves' ult is better for a wombo combo comp than Twitch's, because the enemy have to stand in a straight line. On top of that they take reduced damage, not that Twitch's E or passive do much to begin with.

Honesty Twitch as a champion from looking at his kit looks well rounded but he feels like Quinn in her CURRENT state. An ADC that just doesn't bring enough of anything to the table to be viable outside of a top lane bruiser, even pro Twitch players like Sneaky can't pull Twitch off and usually just feed so It's not like It's just bad players who don't understand Twitch.

How many other adcs have invisibility to assassinate with?

A Miss FortuneOct 29, 20151 votes

1 other.

An assassin is a guy that pops out of no where and bursts you down really fast. Twitch has almost no damage to burst you down with. On TOP of that his stealth has delays, and if you attack him while he's trying to use it he gets a huge delay that can be in itself half a teamfight.

Twitch isn't an assassin, an assassin like Zed, Leblanc, Ahri, etc all have the mobility and burst to assassinate people. He's just about as much of an assassin as AD Janna is.

BiffoloOct 29, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0J6mydH,comment-id=000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2015-10-29T18:30:49.781+0000)

1 other.

An assassin is a guy that pops out of no where and bursts you down really fast. Twitch has almost no damage to burst you down with. On TOP of that his stealth has delays, and if you attack him while he's trying to use it he gets a huge delay that can be in itself half a teamfight.

Twitch isn't an assassin, an assassin like Zed, Leblanc, Ahri, etc all have the mobility and burst to assassinate people. He's just about as much of an assassin as AD Janna is.

Wat. That's literally his role, we saw it at last years worlds. He stealths, comes out of invis with ult ghostblade and tears through everything standing there.

A Miss FortuneOct 29, 20151 votes

But that's because his team could set up that. Without a good team constantly helping out Twitch he's so useless, not only that but Imp is probably one of the best/best ADCs to play League currently.

BiffoloOct 29, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0J6mydH,comment-id=00000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-29T20:55:00.994+0000)

But that's because his team could set up that. Without a good team constantly helping out Twitch he's so useless, not only that but Imp is probably one of the best/best ADCs to play League currently.

So, with proper teamwork he was able to work? Interesting. It's almost like it's a team game.

A Miss FortuneOct 29, 20151 votes

Well.

He's viable in a fully organized team (including multiple coaching staff members) composed of the best players in the world while Twitch is also being played by one of the best Twitch/ADC players to ever play League of Legends, yeah.

It's BASICALLY solo queue.

BiffoloOct 29, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0J6mydH,comment-id=0000000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-29T21:37:32.252+0000)

Well.

He's viable in a fully organized team (including multiple coaching staff members) composed of the best players in the world while Twitch is also being played by one of the best Twitch/ADC players to ever play League of Legends, yeah.

It's BASICALLY solo queue.

To be fair, it's not riot's fault that other people don't have the skills to play him.

A Miss FortuneOct 29, 20151 votes

I shouldn't have to be the best ADC in the world backed by the best team in the world to play Twitch and still know that playing him is extremely risky and extremely easy to counter for the enemy team.

BiffoloOct 29, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0J6mydH,comment-id=000000000000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-29T22:04:50.220+0000)

I shouldn't have to be the best ADC in the world backed by the best team in the world to play Twitch and still know that playing him is extremely risky and extremely easy to counter for the enemy team.

The tools are there to succeed, people just need to be good enough to utilize them. And he's like eve or warwick in the sense of when he's strong, he is the literal embodiment of cancer. So it's better to be safe and slowly push things.

Thats a BingoOct 29, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0J6mydH,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-28T21:44:14.358+0000)

But why pick Twitch for Expunge when Kalista's Rend can do infinitely more damage than Twitch's?

And if you want a wombo combo champ, with the new buffs to MFs ult it does a ton of damage. Even Graves' ult is better for a wombo combo comp than Twitch's, because the enemy have to stand in a straight line. On top of that they take reduced damage, not that Twitch's E or passive do much to begin with.

Honesty Twitch as a champion from looking at his kit looks well rounded but he feels like Quinn in her CURRENT state. An ADC that just doesn't bring enough of anything to the table to be viable outside of a top lane bruiser, even pro Twitch players like Sneaky can't pull Twitch off and usually just feed so It's not like It's just bad players who don't understand Twitch.

Seems like they're aiming to make Twitch an appear out of nowhere and killing the fuck out of you kind of champion; they're buffing his ability to go all in with an ambush kill by allowing him stealth after killing them. Kalista is more fighting around the enemy and endlessly staying on them. They may have a similar ability. But they way they play are totally different.

Bad Luck BraumOct 29, 20151 votes

Personally I think the problem with twitch lies in his Venom Cask. You are spending 50 Mana for a 25% slow that deals 12 damage over 6 seconds.

12 damage.

one more time for Emphasis. 12 damage. In other words 2 damage on impact (If you land the spell)

Sure you get an auto attack in but Look at Graves Smokescreen or Corki's Phosphorous bomb or more comparatively Miss Fortunes Make it rain.

Only Play DariusOct 29, 20151 votes

Well you can spend another 60 mana and now you just boosted the damage from the venom cask

OmiwomOct 29, 20151 votes

A fed, well positioned and protected Twitch can absolutely wipe entire teams from super long range. Problem is, he's difficult to get a lead on, and many assassins can just say screw your positioning, I'm on top of you. Twitch is the most vulnerable ADC. Every other AD has a form of hard mobility, hard cc or up front burst to threaten assassins with. ''Hard'' in this case means reliable, and the Rat is the opposite, meaning he's a champ with some of the highest damage potential, but he's not dependable. And what is time and again at the forefront of the viability meta? Reliable champions.

DeadJokrOct 29, 20151 votes

Twitch Mains Unite

Hotlin3 FlingOct 29, 20151 votes

Aye

SaphixiaOct 29, 20151 votes

I thought corki was fine actually

THESuperStuntManOct 29, 20151 votes

Unfortunately, they are actually nerfing his ult duration significantly. I don't imagine the stealth reset will be substantial enough to make up for that, so unless they reduce the cooldown on his ult or something he'll probably remain a low-tier marksman.

Kharn SkyshatterOct 29, 20151 votes

Why is Twitch nerfed every time there is any update to Marksman? Marksman item changes that added more attack speed items had in the same patch had nerfs to Twitch in that as well.