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Let's talk kogmaw's early game

XeroKimo··2 votes·741 views

I know Kog is a late game champion, but and his early game is weak, but seriously it is SUPER WEAK, let's talk why.

Kow maw's early game weak points:

  • He's immobile
  • He can't poke
  • He can't trade
  • Has short range

Due to being immobile and short ranged, poke champions can easily poke him and force him out of lane, since he doesn't have any poking tools but his E which only scales on ap, you probably wouldn't even max level that first, and it also has a long cooldown.

As you can pretty much see as an adc all he can pretty much do is farm minions until he get's some items which are usually tied with on-hit effects.

The biggest reason I think kog was a weak early game would have to be because of his w. He is super reliant on that skill, but it's also the skill that makes kog unable to trade early game biggest reason being is his W dealing 55% damage to all non minion targets. "Oh well that's because his attack speed doubles along with the cap giving him pretty much the same dps." Well yea it gives the same dps....... if you were able to fully utilize it.

Generally early game trades you'd land a few autos or land a skill with a few autos then back off, of course you can do the same with kog, but normally you'd use his w to open up a trade so you might get the range advantage, but here's the thing, you only deal half per auto, you'd probably land one or two autos before you thought "damn it was a bad idea to try and trade" because the person you wanted to trade with probably already out traded you in the same time, and you can't use your E or Q to help with trades like most champs using their Q cause it'd deal 0 damage cause of no scaling and most likely you didn't even level anything else but your W. So how can we fix it?

I propose one of the three changes

  1. Remove his W 55% damage on non minions along with the double attack speed cap. With this he'll be able to trade early fights while also opening up his ad builds again since his W no longer heavily reduces his ad damage

  2. Again remove his W 55% damage on non minions, and make his W attack speed increase scale like this: 100% from all levels to -------> 20%/40%/60%/80%/100%

  3. Reduce his W base hp scaling to 1%, re-add his AD scaling, tho this one might not fix his early game as well as the other 2 suggestions, it will encourage him to build ad again for late game

Edit: If removing 55% dmg proves too strong simply make him unable to crit while using W

14 Comments

Brody Biggu1 votes

Max Q first works well for me on Kog

Alsek1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fire Fist Ace,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yyIsu1zv,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-02-11T22:00:25.571+0000)

Max Q first works well for me on Kog

Not since patch. The AS is in his W now.

Packun Flower1 votes

When they removed the AD Scaling on his W Riot put Kog in such a bad state that h now needs another rework.

Simple as that. They fucked up bad when they nerfed him, but they wont admit it.

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

When they removed the AD Scaling on his W Riot put Kog in such a bad state that h now needs another rework.

Simple as that. They fucked up bad when they nerfed him, but they wont admit it.

That was probably an overall buff to his winrate given that it improved his damage for 99% of his playtime and his winrate barely dropped at all in a patch that introduced another huge nerf to fervor that strongly affected Kog'maw as well as encouraging the thunderlord's meta that is very toxic to Kog'maw's hypercarry pattern.

Alsek1 votes

You're going to want to max W first because that's where his range and AS is.

But secondary you might consider maxing E in some games for waveclear and long range last hitting.

Kog is the definition of a late game carry. You need to survive the laning phase for fabulous prizes later.

Also! If you build rageblade first, the blasting wand will go a long way to making your E damage stick.

The Loveless1 votes

What early game?

LaughingStapler1 votes

With the AS moved to his W, I think his early game got a big boost and any other buffs to his early would probably make him OP.

I didn't like the AD scaling much because it generally made AP builds far less viable. At least as an ADC, he's in a good state now. Whether you like the new playstyle or not is something else.

XeroKimo1 votes

I like the new playstyle it's fun, but compared to before his little rework, he is having way more trouble to being useful in game.

Moving the attack speed buff from his q to his w hardly changed anything, some people maxed q first so kog would still have the same attack speed for them, some maxed w first so they'd have the longer range, with the changes, now people would max w first and get both benefits. Tho the benefits of the attack speed has very little impact on his early game just cause as I've said your auto damage is halved which really lowers your trade potential, and over long battles you'd still lose due to most other adc's having skills to deal more damage or get themselves out of range and wait on his w duration.

If you're going to point out on the 15 minimum damage on his W, that overall did nothing. An average adc would have about 570 hp with doran blade start which with your w deals 54 magic damage. In order to half that damage with MR you'd need an approximately 110 MR, so even without the 15 minimum damage, your W would already deal more than the minimum damage. The only thing it did help him was to farm easier, assuming he isn't being zoned by the enemy adc and support.

The big thing about Kog'maw is he has no lane pressure, you'll have to rely on your support alone to pressure them just so you can farm even if it's a bit more safely. Or wait until the jungler ganks.

Edit: His damage per auto assuming that the enemy adc has the normal 31 armor and 43 magic resist, that's about a 24% and 29% reduction let's round to the nearest 5s to make it easier, 25% and 30% reduction, your auto deals 29 physical damage + 37.8 which totals to 66.8. But honestly how often would you auto your enemy in lane to poke them with your w up, probably only once or twice.

Edit 2: Didn't realized kog's W halved his %hp dmg too so the actual damage is 29 + 16.9 for a total of 46 dmg

Edit 3: I seem to be brain dead yesterday on my math for some reason I was thinking in about 5% and 10% values, magic damage at 2% was at 12.4 which is below 15, factoring norml resistances you'd deal about 10.5 dmg so you're actually dealing 39.5 dmg per auto early game

LaughingStapler1 votes

{quoted}

I like the new playstyle it's fun, but compared to before his little rework, he is having way more trouble to being useful in game.

Moving the attack speed buff from his q to his w hardly changed anything, some people maxed q first so kog would still have the same attack speed for them, some maxed w first so they'd have the longer range, with the changes, now people would max w first and get both benefits. Tho the benefits of the attack speed has very little impact on his early game just cause as I've said your auto damage is halved which really lowers your trade potential, and over long battles you'd still lose due to most other adc's having skills to deal more damage or get themselves out of range and wait on his w duration.

If you're going to point out on the 15 minimum damage on his W, that overall did nothing. An average adc would have about 570 hp with doran blade start which with your w deals 54 magic damage. In order to half that damage with MR you'd need an approximately 110 MR, so even without the 15 minimum damage, your W would already deal more than the minimum damage. The only thing it did help him was to farm easier, assuming he isn't being zoned by the enemy adc and support.

The big thing about Kog'maw is he has no lane pressure, you'll have to rely on your support alone to pressure them just so you can farm even if it's a bit more safely. Or wait until the jungler ganks.

Edit: His damage per auto assuming that the enemy adc has the normal 31 armor and 43 magic resist, that's about a 24% and 29% reduction let's round to the nearest 5s to make it easier, 25% and 30% reduction, your auto deals 29 physical damage + 37.8 which totals to 66.8. But honestly how often would you auto your enemy in lane to poke them with your w up, probably only once or twice.

His mid lane is still bad but his ADC is very strong after they sped up his scaling so quickly. If you think otherwise, you're just bad at the champion or playing him in comps. where he's terrible. It is not about balance. He is now decent early, strong mid game and strong late (although not as strong as pre-rework).

I actually think it's probably the wrong direction buffing him this way because it does nothing for his mid lane but makes ADC way stronger. It's a very specific type of buff instead of something that would help both roles. I think bumping the % HP on W from 2% to 3% would have been better because %HP isn't as strong early as the massive AS he gets off W. Alternatively, his ult. could have gotten a mana reduction or perhaps have a linear scaling based on % missing HP. It's hard to say.

XeroKimo1 votes

What do you mean they sped up his scaling so quickly? Are you talking about the changes he got this patch or the time when he had an ad scaling? Cause if you're talking about this patch I've pretty much said people have already been maxing his q before, so the scaling of his attack speed hasn't changed at all, early game, I hardly even notice the extra 5% per level after i get the first 15% on his W.

Unless your support can put pressure on them or you get a gank where they can give you the little push should it be successful, you're pretty much stuck farming until you get your items to be relevant. In which case it'd be better to have a support that can help you sustain yourself in lane.

DrNova1 votes

I've seen one solitary kog Mae since his rework.

There is just no reason to pick him with his massive early game weakness.

LaughingStapler1 votes

The range on his W still often made it the best ability to max. Now he gets both. If you think Kog ADC is weak, you're just wrong and grossly misplaying the champion, sorry.

XeroKimo1 votes

I don't think he's weak I just think his early game is still too tough to get pass

WarlockLaw1 votes

That's the point. With a full build that includes a Runaan's he will kill a team faster than any other adc if left unchecked. His weak early game is intentional. Whether or not it's too weak this patch remains to be seen, but I believe the buffs he got are fine and we should leave him as is until the game slows down.

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