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Isn't this change exactly the opposite of what it's intended to do?

Excalibait··45 votes·7,682 views

>Ocean Drake: Buff now [restores 4/8/12% of missing health and mana every 5 seconds if not damaged by champions within 5 seconds.] from [Restore 10% missing HP and MP every 24/12/8 seconds.]

So basicly, what I read out of it is: "If you play a poking comp and get it, good for you. If you're against a poke comp and let them get it, you're screwed."

Scenario 1: Non-poke team sieges with Ocean Drake and poke team defends tower. Good luck ever getting your regeneration. Chances are, you're getting poked over and over and eventually fail the siege because you lack the health regeneration to weather their defense.

Scenario 2: Non-poke team sieges and poke team defends tower with Ocean Drake. Yea, don't even bother to think about it. They have enough regeneration to completely nullify any attempt to take any of their towers, if you lack any way to actually deal damage to them.

Scenario 3: Poke team sieges and non-poke team defends tower with Ocean Drake. Very similar to 2, if you can't reach them while they poke you constantly off your tower, it's easy taking for them while you can't use the regeneration in that time.

Scenario 4: Poke team sieges with Ocean Drake and non-poke team defends tower. That's literally the worst case scenario for the non-poke team. You can't reach them to stop their regeneration, you get poked off your towers even harder and get snowballed on like crazy.

In any way, I think this change isn't really that fair, especially since the Ocean Dragon loses its own intended conterplay. I understand that he has to be changed as the current version is just very strong and the free regeneration it gives is stupidly oppressive in the right hands. But to keep his own conterplay intact, it has to be changed from that one. Simply making the regeneration only occur when out of combat instead of receiving damage would help a lot, as it would force the poking team to chose if they can try to push or they have to wait until they get some mana back. Just my two cents here.

33 Comments

RiotMeddler19 votes

Whether this revised Ocean Drake model would be too favourable to poke comps, and too limited for their opponents, is something we've been looking at a lot this week. Current thinking is that that shouldn't be too big an issue for a couple of reasons. The first is that from what we've seen so far the previous Ocean buff was actually significantly stronger against poke comps than on them, so some degree of shifting power back in the opposite direction is appropriate. The other reason is that when playing against a poke comp we're not seeing the same champions hit constantly, so their is still a reasonable amount of regeneration going on, especially on squishies most vulnerable to poke who can afford to spend a bit of time further back.

Having said that though there's certainly a risk this skews too far in favour of poke comps. If that happens we'll by looking into either decoupling the mana regen amount from the healing regen amount (mana favours poke, health favours anti poke) and/or shifting the regen to truly out of combat (cancels on taking or dealing damage, with appropriate balancing if that leaves Ocean buff too weak).

ForeverLaxx5 votes

One thing to keep in mind is that if the frontline has to keep cycling back behind people in order for the regeneration to "kick in" and heal up the poke damage, then the poke comp gains ground as they shift forward to fire at the new, squishier frontline. Once they suffer enough damage and have to move back behind the original frontline, the poke comp gains more ground. This cycle continues until something drastic happens, such as a forced engagement against the poke comp.

Now, I'm not against more variety in team comps. In fact, I'd much prefer if League didn't shove 5-man Teamfights down everyone's throat as the only way to win effectively. But if your answer to this potential problem is "the front line can just move back" then poke teams automatically come out on top in all situations, especially if they get strong disengage defenses like the proven Trundle or Janna picks.

RiotMeddler5 votes

Yeah, the front line will have a harder time getting some time out of combat to regen. They'll also have larger health pools on average for the % regen to work off however. We'll keep an eye on how that goes, dragon buff tuning's one of our biggest focuses for mid-season follow up at present given how much it affects every game.

LordGeovanni1 votes

With the gutting of HP tank items and Both resistances over the past 2 years fat chance a tank with out in hit healing is gonna tank any hits. Magic resist was A little okay but with the down side of only having 2 tank items that could function well with Magic resist now down to 1.

KillerKell1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, the front line will have a harder time getting some time out of combat to regen. They'll also have larger health pools on average for the % regen to work off however. We'll keep an eye on how that goes, dragon buff tuning's one of our biggest focuses for mid-season follow up at present given how much it affects every game.

The Synergy with Warmog's should be unreal.

So a good Tank should dive, sustain, the pull out. It SHOULD be worth missing your Tank for 10 Seconds (if he did a good engage and got out) to have him back at 100% HP to rejoin.

Fights would take on more of a skirmish, constantly moving... ebb and flow... instead of a 'pile on'.

Don't get me wrong, I like a good Pile. I go Tank Comps, and we love to pile. But we have no issue bailing while Carries Kite to Rejoin at Full HP if that's an Option.

Will make Communication even more crucial now, as you have to 'cover' an 'escaping' Tank to Regen, but not get out of position yourself (proper Kiting) as a Ranged to not completely Disengage.

Of course Pile On will still be viable, to deny such Sustain to the Enemy by keep damage pressure on them.

I think this will lead to more diversity in Team Fights, much like Engage vs. Disengage Comps did. More layers is nice, when they make sense.

So now you can have an Engage/Re-Engage Comp style to try to best use all this Regen.

Nahara2 votes

{quoted}

decoupling the mana regen amount from the healing regen amount (mana favours poke, health favours anti poke)

This actually sounds like the best option. If the health regen is always ticking and the mana regen ticks when you've not been hit, this means that the attacking team is allowed to poke from ranged to try and get the enemy team to back off so they can take the objective, but the front-line of the defending team has the health regen to withstand the siege (and forcing the attacking team to back off when they run too low on resources to keep poking) and look for opportunities to engage.

LordGeovanni1 votes

I was pretty sure that they meant that health regen stops if you have been hit and mana regen stops if you have been hit or hit an enemy. I just don't feel like his intention was to give tankier characters that needed it and have to stand on the front lines back their strength.

AtheosisX9 votes

Yeah, we have yet another poorly thought out change on the horizon. Riot is at least consistent.

MrWasjig2 votes

Shame it's consistency in the wrong places

Dantone2 votes

I thought poke teams were supposed to be good at sieging and defending against seiges?

Excalibait1 votes

That's not necessarily a given. Sure, they are good at sieging by nature, but they tend to have problems defending their own turrets, especially when they are behind. Poke teams need to be somewhat ahead in order to do meaningful damage when sieging and to be able to defend, which is the reason it's not as easy to pull off.

With this change to the Ocean Dragon however, poke teams get a bit buffer in that regard because if they lack stats, it now makes up with very noticable regeneration. I don't know if it's going to be as massive as I expect it to be, but there will certainly be a swing towards favoring poke teams if this goes live.

Dantone1 votes

I'll take your word for it, then.

At my MMR no one will takes advantage of (or even notices) little things like this so I don't think it'll impact the way they play.

folsomdsf1 votes

Garen regenerates 「 0.2 / 0.4 / 1% max. health every half-second 」 if he has not taken non-minion damage in the last 9 / 6 / 4 seconds.

That's .2x10=2% hp ever half second if not taking damage in the last 9 seconds. 4% after the upgrade at level 11. Yes, the starter drake is better than garen's passive till LEVEL 16! It's also just straight up broken :-/

Supreme Senpai694 votes

Apples and oranges tbh. Garen gets his passive for free and he gets it immediately. You have to secure a dragon which only one team can secure and there are two teams. Even then, you probably won't get it until around the 10 minutes mark, maybe even later. Even then, it probably won't be the ocean dragon. Even then, dragons should be stronger than a specific champion's passive I'd say (depending on the champion obviously.)

PB4UAME1 votes

Your wording is atrocious.

I get that you are trying to compare Garen's passive to this change for the drake bonus; no idea why you're trying to, or how you think its relevant, but whatever.

In a FIVE SECOND period Garen will heal 2%/4%/10% of his TOTAL hp based on level, not "That's .2x10=2% hp ever half second if not taking damage in the last 9 seconds. 4% after the upgrade at level 11."

This buff will restore 4%/8%/12% of your MISSING hp AND MANA.

Apples meet Oranges.

Also, if you are attempting to do a comparison, at least set it up properly.

arrowhead21k1 votes

There are 4 dragons and only 3 dragons spawn in a game until the elder drake appears. Meaning the chances of getting the ocean drake ever appearing is slim not to mention the fact that you won't be running a poke comp every game and relying on drake RnG for your team comp is one way to lose a lot of games.

Excalibait8 votes

That's not quite correct. It's not 3 dragons in a game, it's 3 dragon-types in a match, meaning that only 1 Dragon type will never appear in a game. Sure, there's a 25% chance that the Ocean Dragon is being cut, but in 75% of ALL games, you have a 1 out of 3 chance to get an Ocean Dragon every 6 minutes. That certainly is a pretty solid chance to get some of them during a game. Again, Dragons will keep spawning every 6 minutes, until Elder shows up, so in best case, you can snag up to 6 Dragons in one game (Minutes 3, 9, 15, 21, 27 and 33. Since Elder comes past Minute 35, you can't get more.).

According to mathematics, the chance of at least one of the six dragons spawning being an Ocean Dragon is above 80%, considering it's one of the 3 dragon types that appear in the game. This number is based on contesting 6 dragons in a game and goes down the less dragons are to be killed in a game. 3 dragons still offer a 70% chance of spawning at least one Ocean Dragon. 2 Still offer a 55% chance. You see, it's not as slim as you might think.

Odinakos1 votes

Actually it is 58% for 3 dragons ((1-0.75^3)*100), 2 dragons 44% ((1-0.75^2)*100) if the 3 dragon types are not predetermined so the 3 type restriction hasn't kicked in hense the 25% chance. After that, the formula becomes more complex.

If the 3 dragon types are predetermined, it goes (0.75*(1-0.66^3))100=60% for 3 dragons, (0.75(1-0.66^2))*100=42% for 2. You can use the same formula for the rest of the dragons.

I dont mind the changes because poke comps feel weak compared to teafight and splitpushing comps. We will see how this rolls out.

Excalibait1 votes

eh.. that's not the formula you should use here, because it's about chances of at least getting one specific dragon in X draws, always considering the set of dragons are predertermined from the very beginning of a match and the questioned dragon is part of them. So the right formula to use here is:

P (x = k) = (n over k) x (p^k) x (1-p^[n-k])

I haven't used all that in a while but I'm farily certain that my numbers are correct.

Odinakos2 votes

Let's analyze f(x)=(0.75(1-0.67^x))*100

You calculate what are the chances are to NOT get a cloud(or any specific type but cloud for this example) drake for n times. Since it's 2/3( 67% or .67 , yea i was a bit wrong with quick maths). For the second time we ignore the 33% (because we already got a cloud) and multiply 0.67/67% (chances of first time not getting a cloud) with itself(chances of cloud not spawning for only the second time) to get the total chances for not getting cloud 2 times in a row. So 0.67^2. Same deal for third, fourth, nth time, that explains 0.67^x.

Since we found the chances we are not gonna get a cloud drake, we subtract that from 1/100%(its the rest of the chances). So 1-0.67^x. There are our chances to get at least one cloud (and multiple are included).

But but PLOT TWIST!11!! There are 3 out of 4 types, so 75% for a cloud drake to be in the initial predetermined draft, or .75 multiplier. You cant ignore the chance of Cloud not getting drafted, thats logically wrong. Hense the 0.75(1-0.67^n). Multiply by 100 to get a nice sexy percentage and we are done.

Edit: Just checked your numbers. We did the same math but you didnt take into account the chances of cloud drake not being initially drafted. You need to take them into account because a) statistically, you need average for all games and b)practically, before 3 different dragon types spawn, you dont know if it is drafted.

DeathBurst1 votes

Re your EDIT: yeah, he just took the general formula and didn't simplify due to the fact that here we want to know when X = 0, so one whole factor is simply 1 and disappear and you get your own formula, that can be obtain much more simply than with the general one since it's a very specific case.

There is another issue, though. The probability depends on if the 3-type-only limit is decided right at game start or if it prevents the last type to spawn only once the other 3 have spawned, and in that 2nd case, the computation is much more complex.

Choaru1 votes

Q_Q I just came back from school and I wanted to read nice long text walls to soak up the juicy context... but all i see is math.

MY EYES ARE DYING

Odinakos2 votes

But but now you understand why maths are important! To play LoL better!

Now for homework: Prove me if and why Hurricane+BF is more efficient than IE +zeal on Cait.

Sqkerg1 votes

No pls

Choaru2 votes

Hurricane is for adcs who benefit from atk speed and stacking passives and need to kite, like Kalista and Twitch. Infinity edge is better for champs who have Need more flat dmg.

Hurr + BF = 40% atk 7% Movement speed 30% crit +40 AD And total cost is = 3900 gold Total stats: 40 AD, 30% crit, 7% movement speed, 40% atk speed.

Infinity Edge + Zeal = 65 AD 20% crit 15% Atk Speed 20% crit 5% movement And total cost is = 3900 gold Total stats: 65 AD, 40% crit, 5% movement speed, 15% atk speed.

Compare stats: (Hurr + BF to IE + Zeal) 40 to 65 (AD) 25 AD diff 7% to 5% (Movement) 2% diff 30% to 20% (crit) 10% diff 40% to 15% (Atk speed) 25% diff

Since movement speed is t really a huge factor gonna cut it out of the equation :U

Cait benefits from IE and Zeal combo better since she benefits from early bonus AD . Hurr and BF would be better on champs who need the early crit and atk speed which Caitlyn doesn't, since she had a guarented crit. She benefits from the IE passive as well since it synergieses with her "Headshots".

tidegate2 votes

Who says 25% is slim. I hope this is a misunderstanding

The Yetii Rider1 votes

If you make it so it's only out of combat it has no application except during the laning phase.

Making it offensive only (like Mountain Drake) is fine.

Steel Blossom1 votes

Bring a hard engage tank and an assassin....can't regen when they're dead lol

LordGeovanni1 votes

problem with hard engage tanks is what happens when they engage but their team cant catch up killing 1 person doesnt stop a seige nor does it stop the poke

The Deckowner1 votes

make it so dealing dmg also puts u in combat?

Excalibait2 votes

I don't mind if they say "in combat" or "in combat with champions", all I ask for is to make sure that it's not restricted to just take damage to negate the effect, mainly because shown scenarios.

FourVsFive1 votes

I rather they go back to the old dragon and make every one in team get 100 gold for slaying dragon. Sometimes simplicity is better then random dragons having to balance there buffs and add more randomness to game.

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