the re-work is really balanced and she feels smooth, however, i prefer her to be op at first and then nerf her alittle so that we can establish a better balance, if Riot releases champs that are weak they wont know how to buff them, so it's best the other way around, but Poppy came out pretty good
ValyrianBlade2 votesHer dash block seems pretty oppressive... There are a good number of champions who rely on their dashes to be even relevant, the way the game has gone over the past 12-18 months. Now we're making a champion that blocks that. It's almost like they decided to make an ability that blocked all projectiles coming at your team, if that happened players would complain about how it invalidates so many champions (oh wait, Yasuo already exists...).
I see Poppy as Yasuo 2.0. Yasuo invalidates the a large portion of the champion pool of ranged-damage mid laners. Poppy invalidates a large portion of the champion pool of champions who need their dashes to make their kits work.
Perhaps if her dash denial was harder to use (had a delay, required her to charge it in advance via some sort of stacking, etc...) then it would grow on me. In it's current setting, it just feels bad. Especially when you think you're out of range of it (because you're past the indicator) and try to dash when the jungler comes to gank you and end up just semi-stunning yourself in place (possibly due to the fraction of a second cast time of your dash letting her get in range, or maybe an indicator mismatch, idk...).
That all said, Poppy's fairly easy to lane against. Have played against her in lane twice now. Dominated the first one despite her jungler offering her 1 or 2 ganks and me getting none. Got killed by her jungler in like 5 ganks the second time because I got camped hard, and despite that could still beat her 1v1 when he didn't show up (which was like twice). So her laning seems sufficiently weak to allow her teamfight power (insta-5v4 is pretty strong... plus loads of peel).
Jbels2 votesHer dash block seems pretty oppressive... There are a good number of champions who rely on their dashes to be even relevant, the way the game has gone over the past 12-18 months. Now we're making a champion that blocks that. It's almost like they decided to make an ability that blocked all projectiles coming at your team, if that happened players would complain about how it invalidates so many champions (oh wait, Yasuo already exists...).
I see Poppy as Yasuo 2.0. Yasuo invalidates the a large portion of the champion pool of ranged-damage mid laners. Poppy invalidates a large portion of the champion pool of champions who need their dashes to make their kits work.
Perhaps if her dash denial was harder to use (had a delay, required her to charge it in advance via some sort of stacking, etc...) then it would grow on me. In it's current setting, it just feels bad. Especially when you think you're out of range of it (because you're past the indicator) and try to dash when the jungler comes to gank you and end up just semi-stunning yourself in place (possibly due to the fraction of a second cast time of your dash letting her get in range, or maybe an indicator mismatch, idk...).
That all said, Poppy's fairly easy to lane against. Have played against her in lane twice now. Dominated the first one despite her jungler offering her 1 or 2 ganks and me getting none. Got killed by her jungler in like 5 ganks the second time because I got camped hard, and despite that could still beat her 1v1 when he didn't show up (which was like twice). So her laning seems sufficiently weak to allow her teamfight power (insta-5v4 is pretty strong... plus loads of peel).
Funny that the very first champion who denies mobility without outright stopping them from moving at all with hard CC is oppressive
ValyrianBlade1 votesIt's moreso that most CC has counterplay and doesn't use up your cooldown. Hers wastes your cooldown and is instant with a large AOE.
Bears Dont Care1 votesIt's moreso that most CC has counterplay and doesn't use up your cooldown. Hers wastes your cooldown and is instant with a large AOE.
Good, that's called a "counter". It's good to have "counters" because they help maintain balance of the game.
ValyrianBlade1 votesThere's a difference between healthy counterPLAY and just a flat out counter.
You shouldn't win lane / teamfight / whatever just because you chose a champion that happens to 'counter' my champion. It can give you an advantage, sure. Outright making the less skilled player have a considerably higher chance of winning though? No thanks.
As per my original point - just as Yasuo invalidates a lot of champions, it seems Poppy will do the same. I don't like champions that outright invalidate other choices if you don't ban them. Every champion should strictly ADD variety to the game. If introducing a champion removes the viability of 2 or more champions, it's SUBTRACTING variety from the game. It further enforces what champions are reasonable picks and what ones will never see the light of day.
Take any champion that's based around sustained damage, or a champion based around CC and innate tankiness, or a champion that's based around mobility and burst, etc... and all it takes is numerical tweaks to keep them in line and healthy.
Take a champion that PREVENTS another champion from making some action that not all champions have access to (which is to say, stripping your opponent of part of their identity), and that's not healthy. It can't be balanced with numerical tweaks. It will result in one of three states: A champion select game of rock paper scissors, where the winner is predetermined before anyone actually steps on the rift The champion being so weak it's never played (like old poppy) The champion being so strong it's a permanent ban.
There's no healthy alternative. At least that's my view for now. As I said, maybe we'll adapt to it and rely less on dashes and it will be integrated as a core part of the game - but even if it is players are going to complain about it for ages like they do about Yasuo. Maybe Riot will take a suggestion and give the denial a delay, or make it some sort of skillshot or stacking mechanism or anything that has counterplay. I hope so - I'm not counting on it though.
Bears Dont Care1 votesThere's a difference between healthy counterPLAY and just a flat out counter.
I know what I stated. I stated counter, not counterplay for a reason
you mistake the idea that everything must have counterplay, that you should never have a point where you cannot win.
this is a lir. this will never happen. for example ggxxac, potemkin murders chip zanuff. it'sa 65 to 35 mmatch up in potemkin favor.
It's a counter, the worst match up in the game. in sf3, there are 8 to 2 matchups. not an issue, game was still competitive.
counters exist because they provide a check against some strats.
In a team game, counters are even more important because they provide counterplay against certain compositions, and allow more flexibility for your composition. On top of this, if you are playing a champion who has issues with high mobile champs such as Vi vs Kallista, a champion such as Poppy can make Vi more viable in other compositions and increases her flexibility as well.
In essence, a counter improves the balance of the game and adds diversity in team games. It does not detract or harm the game. Counters are healthy.
ValyrianBlade1 votes[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yQrJQgEM,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-10T23:24:51.846+0000)
you mistake the idea that everything must have counterplay, that you should never have a point where you cannot win.
this is a lir. this will never happen.
No, you're mistaken here. Riot has outright stated that they don't want the game to be over in champion select. They want everything to have counterplay. They don't want champion A to win against champion B by virtue of the pick and not by virtue of skill differences between players.
You can disagree in it being what you want - but if the developer says it's what they want then players have reasonable grounds for expecting that to be the case.
Bears Dont Care1 votesNo, you're mistaken here. Riot has outright stated that they don't want the game to be over in champion select.
And it isn't, there isn't a single champion currently capable of dictating the entire outcome of a match. This is what they mean by the game being over in champion select. That by choosing a specific comp/champ that the game is heavily in your favor.
They want everything to have counterplay. They don't want champion A to win against champion B by virtue of the pick and not by virtue of skill differences between players.
Except everything DOES have counterplay. People mistake the idea of counterplay as "I can always do something about it." This is why they get pissed off when facing Annie and scream "NO COUNTERPLAY"
Maintaining your distance from a champ is counterplay. Freezing your lane near your tower because the enemy laner has no mobility and poor range, forcing them to come closer and making it easier to gank is counterplay.
Being able to use an ability to stop an enemy champ from dashing in on you and smashing your face in is counterplay. Counter play doesn't mean you can dodge every ability, or can prevent an ability from stopping your dash, or prevent it from stunning you. Counter play simply means you can counter a strategy, or an ability, or etc. Poppy can counter mobility, that is her counterplay against mobility. Alternatively, you can bait it so she wasted the ability and you can use your mobility. Or you use an ability that bypasses it such as Malphites ult. That is YOUR counterplay.
You can disagree in it being what you want - but if the developer says it's what they want then players have reasonable grounds for expecting that to be the case.
I can disagree because my interpretation is based upon an understanding of the game.
Packun Flower1 votesI'm a Lee Sin main.
O really now?
ValyrianBlade1 votesWho are you quoting? I don't even own Lee Sin (I don't think I've even played him once tbh, maybe on TT beginner bots once more than a year ago when I tried w/e free week champions looked cool).
Jbels1 votesIt's better to release them weak and buff them gradually so that you aren't pissing people off by playing the new champion and getting away with murder because "It's new, they'll nerf it next patch loool"
Sythriel Draken1 votesI enjoy new poppy. Her whole kit synergizes really well with itself, she's excellent in terms of either tank or bruiser, fun in the jungle.. oh, and stopping a fiddle ult, rengar charging at you, and booting a blitz halfway across the map always makes me smile :D*[slayer-jinx-catface]*
Jbels1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sythriel Draken,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yQrJQgEM,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-12-10T00:38:26.057+0000)
I enjoy new poppy. Her whole kit synergizes really well with itself, she's excellent in terms of either tank or bruiser, fun in the jungle.. oh, and stopping a fiddle ult, rengar charging at you, and booting a blitz halfway across the map always makes me smile :D*[slayer-jinx-catface]*
Doesn't stop blinks
