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Garen mini-rework? Thoughts?

EbonyBladeJ88··1 votes·7,227 views

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Thoughts, fellow Garen Players?

The possible removal of Villainy is I suppose interesting, and the AS changes to E as well, though I'd like to test them in action before I lay an actual verdict on it. Unfortunately, I don't have a PBE account, in the event that this gets put ON the PBE for testing. His W's also getting returned to how it was before, bringing back MORE farming.

EDIT: Having done some thinking about it, I really don't like these changes.

Riot. I think you need to go back to the drawing board with this.

I see no changes to his Q , so he can't move faster or avoid slows any differently than as he is now and he is no more or less effective with a higher or lower Silence duration.

You're gutting his W, adding 5 seconds to it and Level 5, thus reducing his uptime for it and removing the amount of Armor and MR he can have by 20 so that it's back to 30 but INCREASING the number of Minions he has to farm by 10 to 160, thus forcing him to farm MORE.

Considering Garen has never built any On-Hit type things in the past, I don't understand why this is being added to his E. Then there is the idea of an (I assume based on what I read) AS scaling on it? Or am I reading it wrong? Are you trying to truly make him a "Freight Train" type Juggernaut, considering most of them build Attack Speed like Trundle or Shyvana or the current Pre-VGU Volibear? I might be reading it wrong but I think this is a reduction in damage output for his E as well, UNLESS he builds AS. Are you trying to turn him into a discount version of Shyvana due to all the On-Hit stuff she has and/or can proc too with it, but instead of applying them twice or something like that, he does it with only 50% effectiveness?

Changing his ult to just full True Damage all the time shoehorns him more into a "Lesser Version of Darius" viewpoint as well, yet he gets no reset AND the damage output is lessened there too.

No. I just don't buy this.

32 Comments

Reaversal6 votes

The Villain mechanic was just wasted power budget that only worked on one enemy champion at a time, that Garen had no control over.

For the most part, his E seems stronger even if you aren't building any AS. That said, Wit's End would probably be really dumb on him. Have fun fighting him 1v1 in melee range when he's healing ~40 Health every 0.2 seconds.

Also, isn't Tiamat's passive an on-hit effect? So, Garen can just buy Tiamat, hit E, and minion waves just implode instantly.

EbonyBladeJ882 votes

I know; it feels like he got the least thought put into his "Juggernaut Rework" back with Season 5. I feel like if it were to be removed though, something else needs to be done. Yeah, the E changes might be a start, but it guts his W in the process and the scaling of his "New" passive seems kind of wonky. Maybe I'm doing the math wrong, I don't know.

I know you were being sarcastic with the Wits end thing, but at least then he would actually have some in-combat sustain like most other Juggernauts.

ImTheJuggernauty1 votes

Interesting thoughts and good points. I think this version of garen is definitely squishier, but has better damage potential overall. People could also start taking lethal tempo on him and gain some insane damage on his E, then when his E finished, he'd still have a second or two of increased AS to auto opponents with. Not a bad thought perhaps. Plus, since before, if he when precision tree he'd likely go the tenacity rune, it might be more advantageous to go the AS rune route, since he already has tenacity on W active and different tenacity sources don't stack well. He could really get a lot of spins off with: Lethal tempo, AS rune, and BORK

Jimmy Rustles4 votes

So...

Passive change means he could technically jungle again, since constant HP regen

W is being gutted big time

E is being boosted slightly? I think? The on hit is weird considering he builds 0 on hit items

R is being gutted for people who targeted villians, but buffed otherwise

Overall, really bad changes

EbonyBladeJ882 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jimmy Rustles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yFEMNlwn,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-14T02:21:51.705+0000)

So...

Passive change means he could technically jungle again, since constant HP regen

W is being gutted big time

E is being boosted slightly? I think? The on hit is weird considering he builds 0 on hit items

R is being gutted for people who targeted villians, but buffed otherwise

Overall, really bad changes

Yeah, I'm not really feeling it with these.

I mean, yeah, Villainy is wonky, but it works ENOUGH for those that make use of it. W is really, gutted. E, I'm not really sure what to call it. I know some have suggested that his E be changed to have AS scaling, but the way it's being presented here, I just don't know.

ImTheJuggernauty1 votes

Whille I'm not a garen main and the changes do sound weird and potentially really bad, one interesting thing would be to build cleaver and BORK. If he's fighting tanks especially, but bork would be interesting because he would proc the healing and % current hp damage (at 50% value) multiple times during a fight, PLUS he would get monster AS from it. Just a though. But after that, garen would definitely have to invest a little more in tank items than he used to since his W is now being gutted.

Also note that Garen's E no longer has a cap on how many time it can hit, whereas before it maxed out at 10.

And as another aside, frozen mallet might be interesting on him when coupled with BORK and cleaver, due to the constant speed boost from cleaver, the AS, healing, and damage procs from BORK, and the slows from frozen mallet. For once garen could have a form of semi reliable cc other than a silence.

Just thoughts

EbonyBladeJ881 votes

{quoted}

Whille I'm not a garen main and the changes do sound weird and potentially really bad, one interesting thing would be to build cleaver and BORK. If he's fighting tanks especially, but bork would be interesting because he would proc the healing and % current hp damage (at 50% value) multiple times during a fight, PLUS he would get monster AS from it.

But this adding of application of On-Hit effects to his E seems so out of the Blue. He has never had that before, in the entirety of his history. Just for the sake of clarification on that, I even got on the LOL Wiki and looked through his changes in Patch History. Nowhere has he ever had On-Hit effects be applied through his abilities aside from things that affect Auto-Attacks such as item 3742 or item 3022 , which of course affected his Q.

You can check it yourself here if you like.

https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Garen

(Go to "Patch History" and look through the section at the bottom of the page.)

Also note that Garen's E no longer has a cap on how many time it can hit, whereas before it maxed out at 10.

People have suggested in the past that his E should have AS scaling, but I always assumed that it was never added or given much thought to be added, due to the fact that it already had the Critical Strike effect, which, if I recall correctly, makes him the ONLY Juggernaut with Crit synergy in his Kit, even if it's only on 1 Ability. The problem with his E having Crit Synergy is that it makes him much squishier since Crit items don't offer any real Defensive Capabilities, so most of the time, no one builds it on him. And Crit itself is a kind of wonky Stat bringing RNG into him if he builds it, making it unreliable. One time it could give him a Kill, and the next time it might not. Juggernauts need RELIABLE methods to deal their damage, not rely on RNG.

That's just MY thinking now, can't speak for others.

And as another aside, frozen mallet might be interesting on him when coupled with BORK and cleaver, due to the constant speed boost from cleaver, the AS, healing, and damage procs from BORK, and the slows from frozen mallet. For once garen could have a form of semi reliable cc other than a silence.

The problem is that forces him to build items he normally doesn't, meaning he can't build more Armor and MR, even if he might NEED it. This VASTLY reduces his tankiness, and that goes against what a Juggernaut is supposed to be. It requires him to INVEST MORE in damage, when, AS A JUGGERNAUT, he shouldn't need to invest THAT HEAVILY in damage.

But after that, garen would definitely have to invest a little more in tank items than he used to since his W is now being gutted.

Juggernauts are SUPPOSED to be Durable AND Deal Damage. These changes to his W GREATLY reduce his Tankiness/Durability, and his passive changes reduce his sustain, which is supposed to be his "Survivability" since he doesn't have any built-in combat sustain like most other Juggernauts.

DeathBurst1 votes

"W gutted is a bit strong". It's a revert to a previous buff. Sure, it's a big nerf, but Garen was functioning before that buff, so it's not game breaking.

E is being boosted in most circumstances except isolated target in late game if you build 0 AS. Even without any on-hit. If you built Triforce before (as you should, Cleaver is a trap), that's a clear buff. And the on-hit stuff opens builds with BtrK or Wit's Ends. But it ruins Deadman's Plate, and potentially break Conqueror/Phase Rush, etc. So I'm not really in favor of it, despite the added build flexibility.

Meep Man3 votes

Get ready for my item 3006 item 3153 item 1416 item 3748 item 3022 item 3071 Lethal Tempo Garen build!

Full build, with Legend: Alacrity and the Attack Speed Shard taken while Lethal Tempo is proc'd, thats 31-32 (depending on if it rounds) ticks! With 50% damage, thats... 124%~ current health damage with item 3153 62%~ max health damage with item 1416 and 77.5 plus 15.5% (557.6 if we don't get health bonuses from runes) of my max health as damage with item 3748 All while shredding armor with the spin itself plus item 3071 and slowing with item 3022 ! And so then we add on the base damage of new spin, with 31 ticks, being 868 plus 1085% of my 298 AD, totaling out at 4100 physical damage... increased by 25% to 5125.2.

So, grand total, we got: 5202.7 (+15.5% Max Health/557.6) plus 62% of the enemy's max health and 124% of the enemy's current health (current health damage going down per tick of damage, but thats too much math) over 3 seconds And then 4100 plus potentially the Titanic Hydra cleave damage to other enemies around me.

Jank and probably unrealistic to get to, but those are SOME numbers.

ImTheJuggernauty1 votes

Oh I made my comments about some of the same things, but looks like you beat me to it xD And actually, you not only make him look viable with that build and those numbers, but downright scary.... In fact, his W may not be gutted enough if he can put out that kind of damage with one basic ability...…..dang son

Fluffi Kitti2 votes

Why gut an already mediocre champ? Sure he's annoying, but just gutting his abilities doesn't make him any better. I think his whole kit needs a huge rework that [REM] his spin 2 win factor and bully lane phase.

Pfenox1 votes

Agreed.

Danyoja1 votes

It's a good start, Garen was my first and (still is) main champ, I know he's not competitive, but he's what I like to play a straight forward character.

P - I do like that jungling is possible on him don't know how effective it will be outside of jungle the one thing most players want for Garen in-combat sustain and something that fits him. I get that all fighters/brusier, don't need in-combat sustain, but lore wise he doesn't seem the type to back off too heal.

Q - Sad there is nothing on Q I would like it too be a very small "leap" point 'n click style attack, but he would have no other way to get in. I would trade the silence for a grounded/slow effect too get more power into it some how.

W - tbh the free stats on the W, while is alot, I don't care about always felt it didn't fit garen doesn't seem to type to focus on farming should focus on trading (maybe if we need to keep the stack passive give him stacks for hitting an enemy champion). Also the increased cooldown hurts, but if possible it activating it also popped his passive in combat for a few seconds it be really nice. You can remove the initial CC reduction at the start or lower the total duration, but it would be nice.

E - The on hit effect is interesting, I can see blade of the ruin king working on him, but if they gave him some ap scaling (or a passive that converts only one way AP>AD but at only 15% so you lose out on value) you can actually pull the morello's spin effect pretty well, but I don't think building magic items fits him, but who know he's getting a bit of new lore atm maybe he'll come around. Attack speed (hopefully keeps his spin from being weaker than his auto attacks when building ad/atk spd) on him is also interesting, but I doubt it's be effective on him since he'll need to build more defensively to make up the lost bulk.

R - Dealing true damage is cool, but I can see them changing that really quick. The removal of villainy is fine even if it would've helped him as a jungle a passive that relies on a teammate dying is never good imo. I would say keep it magic damage, don't give it scaling, but increase the base amount and range, but give it an effect for successful execute. Like when Garen kill and opponent with Demacian Justice the shock wave concentrates the ground, grounding enemies and/or giving allies move speed (DEMACIA or JUSTICE is heard globally).

Of course he's my fav so I want him to be buffed to oblivion, but if anyone wants to start a specific "your ideas for a Garen rework/adjustment" I'll like to see how others would change him given full reign.

Overall I think it's in the right track of giving him some versatility, but it doesn't cover any of his major weaknesses (getting in, not having good rune synergy, and in-combat sustain)

ImTheJuggernauty1 votes

Hmm I like your suggestion for an ultimate change. Especially since that would keep him from being too much like my boi darius lol and keep him a little unique.

SettDownShutUp1 votes

The "Applies on Hit Effects" at 50% is... Okay is that PER TICK?

Danyoja1 votes

I'm guessing yes, but with Garen's power budget being limited by only having 5 item slots (most likely he's building boots), I don't see anything worth sacrificing for on hit damage, when it probably won't be as effective as a sunfire.

ImTheJuggernauty1 votes

sunfire damage is garbage though. And with less durability in W, and mediocre tank stats on sunfire, he won't have as long to get sunfire procs on opponents. On the other hand, his W will scale amazingly well with AS and on-hit effects that will drastically outscale the damage from sunfire. In the end though it's a judgment call based on the matchup and skill levels of opponents. He'll have to build tankier and low damage if he can't manage to get to enemies without being CC locked, focused, and blown to bits. If he is able to split or pick off enemies, then he will be better off going the damage route and rekking 1v1s and 1v2s.

DeathBurst1 votes

It will be more effective than Sunfire, definitely. Even at 50% effectiveness, you get a proc every 0.3 sec, while Sunfire ticks every half-second for half the damage listed in the tooltip. So, yeah, no debate here, any Wit's Ends or BtrK proc will be better than Sunfire damage.

ImTheJuggernauty1 votes

Yes

On My Kill List1 votes

not sure why riot is putting on hit mechanics in garens kit. makes no sense thematically. on hit effects usually belong to carry champions not tanky bruiser juggernauts.

ImTheJuggernauty1 votes

On-hit effects belonging to carry champs has nothing to do with thematics though, as you tried to argue. That's solely to do with your perception.

Thematically speaking, if garen is wielding a magical blade, it's going to have on hit effects (aka, if he buys bork or tri, and uses them, why wouldn't he get on hit effects?)

MorgManBasher1 votes

item 3153 item 3091 item 3078 all might be interesting items on Garen. I know triforce is already good, but this will make it possibly better

Overall this just sounds like a huge nerf to me though Like, sure you can use blade of the ruined king now but imagine trying to put that into a build. That's a lot of squish without even getting the lifesteal... Like, I can't see myself building that item, especially not first item. Sounds like a huge trap. Like, if BorK becomes a thing on garen it's sure as Hell not going to be first item status, it just makes you way too squishy in comparison to a black cleaver or the power of triforce/steraks I like the idea of having the option to go wits end for a first item against mages, but I feel like we are giving up so much for a gimmick.

ImTheJuggernauty1 votes

I think the lifesteal counts as on-hit effect

fabfan1 votes

They bringing back his W in his first version (with still the 60% tenacity/dmg reduction for the first 0.75sec) and I'm okay with that, Riot see that buffing his W only was not a good direction atm we must play like a wall and prey to not die in laning phase until lvl11.

Removing the vilain mecanic FINALLY after all the time we asked for it !

His E is clearly a buff, more spin at the start and we can get more ticks with atk speed another feature that has been asking and that allow garen to build more item.

On hit effect is like a dream for any garen main and on the paper it sound legit because it only proc on the nearest target (minion included) so positioning is important and like the atk speed that allow garen to use more rune with that that mean Garen can be the champion who is the more complicated to build in the game (so another skill expression).

I can't wait to try theses changes on PBE, I'll be waiting for 5 year now (since the juggernaut rework) to see Garen's early being great again.

DeathBurst1 votes

I made a whole long-ass thread in reply to the original Tweet with that picture: https://twitter.com/Death_Burst/status/1161378586357587970

Short version: E applying on-hit is super dangerous and will be super hard to handle well in a mini-rework like that with limited resources. Removal of Villainy is fine as a compensatory nerf to free power budget but has a number of subtle consequences that need to be considered carefully.

All in all, I'm not optimistic.

DeathBurst1 votes

P:

  • not disabled by Monsters --> Garen might go Jungle with that. If that's the goal, perfect, but if not, it won't have any other effect.
  • Values seem relatively similar, no big deal here.
  • A bit more sustain in early, but not doubled at low life -> Enemies have more kill opportunities, Garen has more lane presence, all good.
  • 2 more sec to activate in late, probably less frustrating to play against, it's fair.

W:

  • Overall a huge nerf. Not a big fan. (And, spoilers, not a big fan of the other buffs that are the reason for that.)
  • I think there are more interesting opportunities with the W, like tying it with the passive regen to get some form of in-combat sustain

E:

  • Seems like a buff in most cases, but not by much.
  • 4th stack from AS at 50% bonus AS when he caps at 49.3 at level 18 will lead to weird and counter-intuitive optimization. Either give him 50% by level 18 or make it 15% AS for each stack or something, for intuitiveness.
  • Applying on-hit, I'm SUPER scared.
    • First very important point: Deadman's Plate. If I understand correctly, it means you cannot "load" DMP by running after your opponent while E'ing and get the slow at the end of the E, because every on-hit proc will discharge it.
    • Second, there WILL be an abuse case somewhere. Not sure what it will be yet, but there will be one. Each tick of E gives 1 Conqueror stack? Each tick applies 2 stack of Cleaver at once? You can proc Phase Rush with just E (which is not necessarily good)? You can apply Red Buff with E, too, this is sick.
    • On the other hand, I'm glad it opens builds with BtrK or Wit's Ends. And I'm not sure how it interacts with "standard" lifesteal? Is that a on-hit?
    • So overall, a bit curious about the theorycrafting possibilities, but more scared than curious.
  • WITHOUT on-hit, that's a nerf to the main target damage, though, and current builds have no on-hit. I'm glad and curious if it opens new build, but if it just replace the old ones, it's much less interesting.
  • Also, new builds will include much more AS, so much less tanky stuff. This will compound the W nerf on durability and make Garen MUCH more squishy than before. That's neither good not bad in isolation, but it needs to be taken into account.
  • No mention about any crit interaction, one way or the other, so I assume this is not changed at all?

R:

  • Villainy removed: well, I can't say I'm surprised, but as a very personal opinion here, I'm sad.
  • Personal opinions aside, though, that has a large number of subtle consequences.
    • Combined with the number nerf on the R active, it reduces Garen's burst potential by a lot, and burst is very threshold sensitive. If that makes Garen fall below the threshold to assassinate Mages/ADC with Flash+Q+E+R at end of silence, it's huge.
    • Combined with the move to always True damage, can we expect an execute indicator on everyone? A large part of what made the Villain passive work was that indicator that allowed you to perfectly time your R.
    • Removing the Villain passive, while it removes a lot of frustrating cases with the mark on a tank/support, paradoxically also removes one of the few interesting tactical choices that Garen had: Should I go for a low priority target with the mark, to get a passive bounce and a large increase to overall DPS, or is it more important to try and burst a priority target without the mark? You won't have to wonder anymore. (Still plenty of macro decisions to make, Garen always was a macro champ.)

Also, I mentioned it with everything else, but this really need to be highlighted: DMP interaction with E applying on-hits MUST be looked at specifically!! No DMP slow at end of E would be a huge nerf. On the other hand, the possibility to apply Frozen Mallet (or even Iceborn Gauntlet/Sheen procs!) would be nice.

Tailypo1 votes

I mean it looks like a nerf to me, but I dont Garen.

:scratches head

Are they saying E applies on hit effects each tick??? Either way the change seems very "WTF riot?"....

Kazamaru1 votes

Yeah, so this is a pretty big change.

Firstly Garen summoner 11!!! It will actually probably become his primary role.

Secondly, item 3153 item 3074 item 3748 are all just pretty busted on him.(For jungle; both item 1416(Greedy) item 1401(Smart) are great.)

So his build will usually look something like this: item 1401 item 3047 item 3153 item 3748 item 3742 item 3091

Greenette1 votes

I like these changes and I'm a little surprised that people are so vehemently opposed to them. Everyone is losing it over the W changes and honestly, if they were going to buff Garen then logically W is where they'd make the compensation nerfs. I will apparently be the first to admit it but Courage was really, really strong - and people will cry about removing skill expression by nerfing W but the damage reduction elements are unchanged so you can still make great plays with the 0.25s window so idk. The loss of 20 arm/mr on a champ who has natural tank scaling and is inclined to build additional resistances isn't that big of a hit in my books.

I'm incredibly excited at the direction this is going. Garen can already utilize a huge amount of keystones compared to other champs but if we can start taking conq I'll be thrilled and if the addition of on-hits to Judgment go through, Garen will just simply be much more powerful. His ult dealing relevant damage to all targets will give him such an improvement in the lvl6 fights and his passive scaling per lvl will definitely help to remedy the "just get to lvl11" power through Garen experiences.

It's unlikely these changes will ship as is but I really like the look of them. People are complaining that Riot is killing Garen's current core build but I really doubt the Cleaver/Steraks build is going to die - the items aren't changing and Garen's ability to utilize them is remaining the same. His natural attack speed growth will likely compensate for the loss of damage which means nothing is changing radically but now we have the choice of putting more strength into Judgment via building other items.

Harleqynn1 votes

Ok tbh Garen is one of my least favorite champions to play against... HOWEVER this is completely changing his style from executioner tank to bruiser with some spinny buffs-ish. Not sure I love it, but I don’t COMPLETELY hate it... not a huge fan all in all

Pfenox1 votes

[sona-playing] [sg-janna]

Janna and Sona main here.

This mini-rework is a terrible idea. I may not play top lane, but I know that Teemo is gonna be able to gut him now with little trouble. If Garen can't get close enough to farm, how in the world is he going to get his W? I feel really bad for you Garen mains. I hope they reverse the changes and go back on buffing Leona--don't need that happening.

MinaMobpsycho1001 votes

does this rework only in pbe? because nothing happen in normal game

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