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A champion's counterplay shouldn't be the person playing them being stupid

Cunky··96 votes·5,920 views

Let's take Vayne for example.

It's Vayne top lane vs you, a Darius, for example (before somebody comments, yes I've been playing Darius recently and feeding, but I never went against Vayne top. This is an example). You sit under your tower for 10-15 minutes before you finally get out of lane. All throughout lane you get poked by Vayne if you try to farm. If you ever try to engage, she uses her Condemn and Tumbles back, so you can practically never engage on her, just want to cut your own dick off because of all the poke you're taking. You buy tabis and a Bramble Vest, but she still cuts through you because of her Press the Attack and Silver Bolts.

How about with Tristana, in her regular lane, bot lane?

It's Twitch/Janna vs Tristana/Blitzcrank. Every time your Janna tries to engage on Tristana, she uses her W, and Blitzcrank follows up by hooking you or Janna. When your jungler finally ganks, Tristana ults the jungler, and W's away. At least you can 1 shot her in the lategame, right?

Every time you destealth on the team when they're clumped up, Tristana just ults you away.

This is not fun game design. Somebody meant to do damage over time shouldn't have an incredibly safe kit. Somebody whos main drawback should be being squishy and have no gapclosers shouldn't have multiple way to get rapists off them. This is why people complain about Vayne and Tristana, because they pump out insane burst, yes, BURST, while also being some of the safest champions in the game.

But what do I know. I'm just a Bronzie, right?

Edit: By Janna engaging, I mean using W+Q to hopefully catch somebody out. Or even doing a hype Flash + Ult combo like an Insec.

87 Comments

BALDG1VEN BOOMER75 votes

To be honest most (not all) champions whose “counter play” is to dumpster them early or wait for later cause they “fall off” is horribly designed in general and is not counter play.

Why should I dumpster a Twitch all laning phase and he gets one item pentakill after that? Most of these “kill them in lane and win” types of champions are just lazy design put together by whom ever created them.

Last I checked counter play is a chance of me outplaying my opponent or going even and having a chance of survival.

CHODES AND LOADS2 votes

pretty much. winning a game should be a round of fuckin crazy taxi where u race a clock or lose to a timebomb champ going off on ur whole team at 20 minutes

XIVIVIX8 votes

The reason this happens is because of 2 things:

  1. Items. They're not designed for specific classes, they're generalized and therefore can never be balanced for Ranged, Fighter, Tank, Assassin, Mage, Support. The only way that you can achieve balance between champions is to not let them purchase the same items. For instance, Hydra on a ranged champion; This is not allowed and creates some balance between classes.

  2. The DPS vs CC vs DEFENCE of each champion is not balanced. For instance. Jax with landing his stun is not the same as Vi landing her entire kit. Vi has 2 forms of CC, which should make her damage and defences lower vs Jas who has 1 form of CC but has an escape, defence and attack buffs, which SHOULD almost balance out to a stalemate if they each land all their CC etc, but we all know who wins that fight even with the same build.

Simply put, Riot needs a better algorithm for balancing a champion and they need to classify items, a good example of how they can accomplish this is the same as building a PC: http://www.userbenchmark.com/Faq/What-are-the-UBM-performance-classifications/93

LordGeovanni3 votes

Its because the design team does not seem to co respond with the balance team when making their champion (not that i think that the balance team has any problem with the champions that get released because when they do get released they take so long to nerf them despite having the date from their open beta tests on pbe and closed alpha tests in riot. They should have potential nerfs and buffs sitting in a folder from before champions even make it to pbe. and be doing the same to already made champions even if you take 2 days to speculate buffs nerfs and recalculations on each champion it would only take you slightly over half a year to touch every champion in the game.

DeusVult1 votes

4+ seasons ago it made sense, since damage was a lot lower, carries had less item choices (Every ADC went Boots, IE, old PD, BT, LW and their only choice was what 6th item to get.), their itemization was a lot more expensive, gold over time was lower, there was almost no defensive AD itemization for crit carries, support itemization to proctect your carry didnt exist, and runes only added a tiny bit of damage, not a fuck-load.

So overall, if you could dumpster the twitch/kog/vayne/jinx/trist in lane, they wouldn't do squat for the next 30 minutes until they had 3-4 complete items. Now, since all the things described above exist, crit carries begin to hit damage thresholds at the 15-20 minute mark, so there isnt a time in the game where you can take advantage of them. Zeal and zeal items cost nothing, IE isnt even close being compared to how expensive DC is for mages, yet it is more powerful, and AD runes are 10x better than mage/support/tank runes are. Plus just about every Keystone in the game adds damage, none add survivability (rip CotC)

Overall, damage is too high for everyone, on everything, and it is easier to stack defensive passives on a glass cannon than it is on a tank

LegitBusinessman2 votes

[{quoted}](name=TSM Piccaboo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y6uBnQQe,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-01-08T14:56:55.884+0000)

To be honest most (not all) champions whose “counter play” is to dumpster them early or wait for later cause they “fall off” is horribly designed in general and is not counter play.

Why should I dumpster a Twitch all laning phase and he gets one item pentakill after that? Most of these “kill them in lane and win” types of champions are just lazy design put together by whom ever created them.

Last I checked counter play is a chance of me outplaying my opponent or going even and having a chance of survival.

I don't agree with that. Some champs need to be designed this way or the game is going to become way too repetitive. Lee Sin is the best example of this. He's disgustingly overpowered early. But if you KNOW THAT, and play AROUND IT, and don't allow him to get good ganks off, he basically is relegated to pulling god tier ults or be utterly useless in teamfights.

Ahristocats28 votes

that thread is right, but the examples are poorly thoughts

[{quoted}](name=Prince of Uganda,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y6uBnQQe,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-01-08T14:08:32.103+0000)

Let's take Vayne for example.

It's Vayne top lane vs you, a Darius, for example (before somebody comments, yes I've been playing Darius recently and feeding, but I never went against Vayne top. This is an example). You sit under your tower for 10-15 minutes before you finally get out of lane. All throughout lane you get poked by Vayne if you try to farm. If you ever try to engage, she uses her Condemn and Tumbles back, so you can practically never engage on her

the problem with darius vs vayne isn't engaging, it's surviving if you manage to engage that's a good thing, because condemn+Q makes vayne using half of her mana

and it's not really a problem of vayne, it's darius being stupidly designed to make his kit unable to be used against ranged champions

darius will autolose against any ranged toplaner with a brain (jayce/kennen/quinn and the others)

Every time your Janna tries to engage on Tristana, she uses her W

If janna tries to engage against anyone, the Janna player is unskilled

Eedat27 votes

I agree. Darius is just shit against any ranged champ. There are melees that dumpster Vayne though. I main Wukong who destroys her in lane. I know, "but Wukong is trash past D5". That's cool but at that point you're only talking about 1% of players. I can also play Nasus and max wither second then just run her down and destroy her with item 3078 item 3069 item 3047. Panth and Olaf shit on Vayne too. Lots of melees do. I really don't understand why people bitch about Vayne top when it's trash tbh. Teemo and Quinn are way worse

At the same time, Darius may 'autolose' to Vayne but I 'autolose' to Darius as Wukong. That doesn't mean ”OMG DARIUS NO COUNTERPLAY SHIT DESIGN". It just means it's a lane I don't win without help. Or without them fucking up royally. So I have to adjust my play accordingly to just survive the best I can which normally means playing like a puss under tower.

People just refuse to learn matchups and think they should be able to blind pick anything without getting punished. It's really aggravating. I swear people will pick Teemo into Olaf then bitch when they get destroyed.

Ahristocats11 votes

Darius doesn't have a counterplay if you're an immobile melee, that's a sad truth

Darius's kit is hardcountering, i would like him to actually have a rework (former darius main opinion) because until then balancing him across all tiers will be hard

PS: wukong is one of darius's counter

Eedat16 votes

Uhhhhh not in lane. Darius shits on Wu super hard 1v1. I just bait out his Q at level 2 to autoshove the wave to me then farm at my tower until my jungler shows up. Pretty much just exploit the glaring weakness of Darius which is he shoves hard anytime he presses Q then has no escape once he's overextended. To quote Allorim:

Pros

  • None really

Cons

  • His Q can heal off you and your clone
  • Strong extended trade
  • Very difficult to run away
  • Next to impossible to out trade

Tips: Your best bet on this matchup is to wait until he messes up. Darius isn't a huge problem if you can get pressure in the lane, as he's immobile, but the chances of you winning 1 on 1 is reliant on him making mistakes. Avoid doing anything more than a fast combo trade, or he will stack his passive, and absolutely shit on you. Try to save your W for when he uses his E, or else you'll be caught in a really bad situation. Your goal of this lane is to farm it out. You don't have to win the lane to win the game.

Troll for Trump2 votes

Wukong doesn't hard counter Darius it's just a skill matchup. But it depends a lot more on how skilled the Wukong is. Most have Darius PTSD and play too defensively.

Darius vs ranged is a skillmatchup on Darius's end.

Darius doesn't have counterplay against immobile melees, but he also lacks the ability to counterplay many other things because he himself is an immobile melee.

Darius, and basically all Juggernauts are shit in higher elos unless they get overbuffed and just statcheck the crap out of whatever's in top lane.

Ahristocats2 votes

mordekaiser is trully viable in high elo

he's the reason i got to master a second time after darius got nerfed

Eedat1 votes

Wukong doesn't hard counter Darius it's just a skill matchup.

Its not a skill matchup. Skill matchup would be something like Wukong vs Fiora where you have opportunities to outplay each other. Wukong vs Darius you just get shit on unless they fuck up royally.

Troll for Trump1 votes

As with similar matchups, it's based on whether or not you can dodge his Q. That's all there is to it

GGLineaR9 votes

{quoted}

Panth and Olaf shit on Vayne too.

Pantheon barely counts as a melee champion in lane, what with all those spears. Let's be real.

And the issue I see isn't even just with melee champs.

No one should have % max health True damage, AND have so much safety built into their kit.

Automated Riven11 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y6uBnQQe,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-01-08T15:23:52.096+0000)

that thread is right, but the example are poorly thoughts

the problem with darius vs vayne isn't engaging, it's surviving if you manage to engage that's a good thing, because condemn+Q makes vayne using half of her mana

and it's not really a problem of vayne, it's darius being stupidly designed to make his kit unable to be used against ranged champions

darius will autolose against any ranged toplaner with a brain (jayce/kennen/quinn and the others)

If janna tries to engage against anyone, the Janna player is unskilled

Ya I was wondering why Janna was trying to engage into blitz.

Cavesloth2 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y6uBnQQe,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-01-08T15:23:52.096+0000)

that thread is right, but the example are poorly thoughts

the problem with darius vs vayne isn't engaging, it's surviving if you manage to engage that's a good thing, because condemn+Q makes vayne using half of her mana

and it's not really a problem of vayne, it's darius being stupidly designed to make his kit unable to be used against ranged champions

darius will autolose against any ranged toplaner with a brain (jayce/kennen/quinn and the others)

If janna tries to engage against anyone, the Janna player is unskilled

Or playing in low elo where they CAN bully their balls off, because they enemy team isn't used to an aggressive janna and doesn't know how to shut that down.

Dasdi9626 votes

Vayne never had counterplay. People only got the illusion of her having counterplay is because of all the vaynes who tumble into a team of point and click cc and burst.

Thefrostyviking6 votes

Vayne´s counterplay is CC and burst, and she isn't the only one in that department.

She is just way more toxic because she runs the definitely BS combo of IE+static and has built in high true damage in her kit.

Along with stealth.

DracosKasu10 votes

Personnally I hate when Vayne is meta because she just an unfun champ to play against for many other Character. I dont mind Jinx to be an hypercarry because she still lack of safety but when it came to Trist and Vayne, I dont believe the should have this amount of dmg with mobility/steath and a pushback in their kit but Vayne also got truedmg which negate any form of defence.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

Vayne is never meta unless she is OP x)

That is why i personally hate any and all metas where she is prominent, and clearly she is broken with the heal setup + static+IE.

Can't get poked out of lane so easily, harder to assassinate like every other marksman running the build (except she already had a innate advantage in that) and she is extremely hard to kite post some point.

A champ with consistent and pretty high true damage in their kit should pay a hefty price for such a privilege, just as kog pays for his max health % damage and scaling with lack of self defense options.

But Vayne doesn't really have any particular disadvantage to pay off all her advantages.

This makes her a huge pain in the ass to deal with, the fact that she doesn't have any real weakness to compensate for her massive advantages.

....In my opinion she should already be kinda gimped because she gets to be invisible and do burst as well as have self peel, but instead she gets to have a strong source of max health true damage and average range.....

She needs to be given a focus because now she is a all rounder that does everything too well whenever she is good. <.<

Bronze 6 Yasuo2 votes

That is everyone's counter play. Tell me actual counter play to vayne besides cc and burst

Jinx Hunter12 votes

Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven

JustARivenMain2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jinx Hunter,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y6uBnQQe,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-01-08T15:03:41.566+0000)

Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven

:c

Jinx Hunter4 votes

{quoted}

:c

Hey I love and adore Riven. but her ability to shit on you no matter what with little to no country play other then her fucking up is a bit much. Especially when she is so damn hard to play and not fed, so probably less then 10% of the people that play her can even play her right and the rest are just useless feeders that piss of their team.

But that's just my opinion and view on her, still wish I could play her.

Who Man11 votes

not every match-up is a good one, sometimes... god forbid i say it... sometimes, you have to coordinate with your team and work together

this might be next level mechanics, but vayne is super squishy and darius doesnt die in 3 hits, there's usually a jungler on each team these days, so probably your jungler could punish the squishy solo top laner and you both get fed over someones poor life decision.

odds are the enemy jungler isn't going to baby-sit their squishy top lane, but you should have map awareness of their jungler's position anyways. if you don't know where their jungler/mid lane are, then don't engage it's that simple.

people don't always have their ults up, trist is on ~2 minute cooldown, if you see them use it you have a window of opportunity.

generally for someone like trist, you want to bait them into overextending or lock them down before they escape. her W isn't exactly a get out of jail free card, a lot of CC's will stop it

nice table10 votes

"janna tries to engage" kek

Bârd9 votes

Yeah, it shouldn't. That's why it isn't the case.

You beat Vayne by sending multiple people to deal with her. She's very safe against single opponents (especially easily kited ones like Darius), and scales into debatably the best duelist in the game (you could argue that Fiora is better), but drops off in effectiveness if she has to fight two or more. That's why Vayne is a lane bully in top, but a farm lane in bot. It's also why Vayne is good in solo queue but mediocre in competitive; you can't always rely on your mid to roam or your jungler to pressure top in uncoordinated play, but she's meat if you can.

In the Tristana example, that's just really stupid play. You shouldn't be engaging in that matchup, part because they have strong early burst and part because Janna is bad at engaging.

T4underbolt2 votes

Being forced to camp champion just proves its broken.

Bârd2 votes

Not in the slightest.

In a 1v1 against a melee, Vayne has a very safe laning phase, but not a very powerful one. She has lots of harass and self-peel, but no kill pressure without enemy misplays, so farming it out is an option.

Thing is... why wouldn't you gank Vayne top?

She's likely playing aggressive, compromising her positioning and causing her to push. Baiting out condemn is easy, since she'll just knock back the top laner when they go for an engage. She's squishy and has no escapes, so what the hell is she going to do? She doesn't have a support, so nobody's coming to save her ass barring a countergank. She doesn't have items, so she can't turn the fight unless she condemns you under tower (in which case you done goofed).

But OK fine, lets say for whatever reason you can't have your jungler gank her. Have your mid do it. Pick TF, A.Sol, Corki, or any assassin. Hell, pick Karthus and "gank her".

Ok, lets say all of you are dead set on sitting in your lanes and farming.

Teamfight around Vayne and focus the living shit out of her. Vayne is good at teamfighting when she can turn it into a series of duels, but is utterly garbage at it if multiple threats are on her.

Cosnirak1 votes

She's squishy and has no escapes

has no escapes

no escapes

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

Slythion9 votes

Lane bullies and counter matchups are a must have for any competitive game. Champion select has to matter, there have to be champions and matchups that keep others in check.

Darius himself hard-counters so many champions I'm surprised you're using him as a champion on the other side of the example.

Even aside from that:

It's not fun for those on the punishing side, but it's going to happen. You will never find a game with a large amount of variables (champions, items, lanes) without hard counters like you're describing.

I do agree with your stance to a degree though. I don't like using Vayne as an example, because she has very clear limitations and weaknesses in her kit that can be exposed, they just simply weren't because of your matchup.

Champions like yasuo however, who has tools in his kit to basically adapt to any situation or matchup if played correctly, I hate quite a lot. Yasuo is **the ** "I outplayed myself" champion.

He has: shields, crit, dashes, knockups, a blink/gap close, auto resets, projectile blocker, armour pen, short cooldowns, etc

I'm not claiming he's op here, or necessarily that he's a "toxic" champion (those are discussions for another time), I'm just saying Yasuo has the tools to deal with a lot of matchups and a lot of situations that if utilized correctly, removes a lot of the outplay potential for any enemy. His limitations are the fact that he's hard to play even remotely perfectly, and I think that's a real bullshit limitation.

ISLAMICWARRIOR991 votes

How is being extremely hard to play outside of low elo not a good limitation? It allows dedicated skilled players to climb and people who play him bc they lost to him and think he's op lose. He's basically riven but way weaker and harder to play.

Slythion2 votes

{quoted}

How is being extremely hard to play outside of low elo not a good limitation? It allows dedicated skilled players to climb and people who play him bc they lost to him and think he's op lose. He's basically riven but way weaker and harder to play.

Why is the fact that most enemies are hopeless to a perfect Yasuo poor design? That's easy, it's because it's not fun. It's not fun to have 0 control over an entire champion for the sole fact that they're versatile and can deal with almost anything if played right. It takes 100% of the "game" from one player and puts in into the hands of the Yasuo player.

"But Slythion, that's exactly what OP was talking about", to which I would agree. The difference is that Yasuo doesn't cause this relationship occasionally because of a certain matchup involving both laners, he causes this in most cases because of him as a champion by himself. He is perpetually causing this toxic relationship between laners by himself rather than being smart during champion select.

ISLAMICWARRIOR991 votes

He causes it against ranged champs, almost every melee in the game shits on him

Thefrostyviking5 votes

This isn't really a good example as Darius kinda autoloses against nearly all ranged matchups, and Vayne is generally a pretty awful toplaner looking at her winrates there.

Twitch lategame ulting should have more range then a trist, how could she ult you away if you don't walk up next to her?

Janna engaging on something is 9 outa 10 times doing something terribly wrong, twice so if doing it on a blitzcrank.

Marksmen only have burst because of static+IE, never had it before except Twitch due to his Q-R combo......and Draven, cait if we are talking some squishy walking over traps.

Vayne has 1 way to peel for herself that doesn't require her to hit someone repetedly, that is her E, Q has a fairly long CD unless she auto attacks with it instantly each time after using it, "or wait until the ability timer expires*.

And Given her range she then has to stay at a relatively close range to get anything out of it.....of course that distance feels huge to a immobile melee but it's nothing at all for most assassins or divers or any other ranged.

Daddy Ants1 votes

{quoted}

Vayne has 1 way to peel for herself that doesn't require her to hit someone repetedly, that is her E, Q doesn't go on CD unless she auto attacks with it.

Incorrect.

The cooldown doesn't start until she auto attacks or the effect ends naturally.

If she doesn't auto attack then effectively her Q has a 13 second cooldown early game. The 7 seconds the empowered effect is active + the 6 second cooldown.

The cooldown will start as soon as the tumble effect ends regardless of if the effect ends when she auto attacks or it expires naturally.

Go into the practice tool. Tumble and do nothing and see for yourself.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

ah my bad, was a bit unclear in the description, edited it.

Meant to say that her Q doesn't go on CD quickly unless she auto attacks with it, and to do that she has to stay within a certain range.

Effectively, if she just Q's and runs away without attacking then her Q ends up having a pretty long CD-

HeeroTX4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Prince of Uganda,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y6uBnQQe,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-01-08T14:08:32.103+0000)

Edit: By Janna engaging, I mean using W+Q to hopefully catch somebody out. Or even doing a hype Flash + Ult combo like an Insec.

What kinda idiot play is that? In a hard POKE meta, with a lane that has: Janna (strong peel and a SHIELD) & Twitch (a "bad" early game champ that can still zone decently) why the HELL would you EVER try to hard engage on a Blitz+ANYTHING combo (during laning I assume)?!? That's just insane. With Janna's Q & E you can keep push down and stay safe from most ganks. Then roll in mid-late game once Twitch has solid build. If you're a bronzie trying to do a "hype combo",.... well then that's why you're a bronzie.

Serika Zero4 votes

Vayne has a bad all in, more exactly early. Which means, you, as a top laner, have control over the wave. So, try to keep it in front of your turret. And then your jungler might gank (or not), but you still get some farm and some cs.

And since you are playing a non late game adc, chances are, your power spikes happen faster. Use those to your advantage. Like, I used to play Akali top a lot, and a popular match-up was Akali vs Gnar. Well, unlike you vs Vayne, Akali has very little control over waves due to small E range and mediocre early game compared to gnar's very good early game (due to hyper proc which gives him movement speed, and Q slow, both of which make kiting very easy for the gnar). So, all I would do is: take safe cs, try to trade when i know the enemy jungle is not nearby, and stay in exp range. Get my power spike and KILL THAT SHIT. Recall, buy again, and KILL THAT SHIT AGAIN. That's what you do with Darius as well. You get to your power spike and then DUNK THAT BITCH over and over and over again. You starve her of future farm and even exp. To make her regret the day she choose to play Vayne top. She needs more items to beat you, if she's just half an item ahead, that's easy peasy.

Also, since you starve her of gold and exp, she will not be behind her adc and your adc and your midlaner and your jungler, etc. Which means, she's food until late game. Also, her TP plays are trash. You can also do that in the early game, forget about teleporting to lane if she's freezing in front of her turret, check for a roam/tp play ;) You got a grab and a slow, make use of it.

About tristana vs blitz bot. Umm, if you really are bronze, then the enemy tristana will not be able to jump outside hooks, maybe once or twice, but most of the time, she's gona fuck up. Also, watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4gNsdrlYWI

ps, watch the entire video (especially the part of 6+ minutes)

4262873 votes

Uh? Dont blind pick an easily countered champion. Its literally that simple.

Mortroxx5 votes

So don't play the champions you want to play for the sake of actually enjoying yourself?

Skorch3 votes

I see your point, and i kind of agree. But, like Rubick below, your examples are kind of off.

First off i just want to state that this isnt a Marksman only issue, the fact you used 2 Marksman examples makes me think this is just a Fuck ADC thread when this idea has more merit than that.

Darius v Vayne isnt an "Vayne needs to be braindead to lose to Darius" its a "Darius has to be god-like to win against range." Its a counterpick. Annoying as hell? Yeah. But thats kind of the point of ranged at all... to not be annihilated by Melees for the sole reason of they are melee, I dont like the precedent of "If you are ranged, melee should auto-win if you dont have your team."

And Tristana is ANNOYINGLY slippery that is true, I wont deny that. But that doesnt mean "0 Counterplay"

And its safe to say that MOST champions have okay counterplay. With a few exceptions... Im not a fan of Vayne/Draven being a "Dont let them get 6 items or you lose no matter what" like they are now, but that is an issue on counterplay being Time-based, not skill based.

I think my biggest issue with this post is there is no champion whos counterplay is 100% based on skill. There are champions with high skill ceilings that mastering can make you really strong. But that still doesnt mean 0 counterplay. If anything its a "You have to work twice as hard to go even with simpler champs. And 3 times as hard to do really well." Obviously thats not exact but thats the point of skill ceilings.

SerBlaise3 votes

Every champ will have some aspect that conflicts with certain champs. The title of your post is the definition of "counter pick". The way to deal with counter picks is to bait them out into doing the stupid plays that get them killed. What you lack in mechanical/kit advantage, you have to make up with team work, strategy and mind games.

Balance will sometimes throw this out of wack to where you can play the mind games and still get facerolled and 2v1'd. That's bad design. But counter picking is just a consequence of diversity. That will never leave the game; might as well learn to overcome a counter pick and play the mind games well.

Elkington VI3 votes

Morello used to bring this up on the forums, about how a champion shouldn't be untouchable by an opponent simply because they're being played well, but nearly everyone used to throw tomatoes at him. Now look where we are.

Lock On2 votes

Except marksmen have never been easier to blow up. 525-550 units of attack range for most of them is a joke considering the numerous ways to apply cc/gapclose on them to cut the distance.

The Darius King1 votes

Darius usually wins in lane vs vayne before she gets items

Sasogwa5 votes

[{quoted}](name=That One Darius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y6uBnQQe,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-01-08T17:29:59.771+0000)

Darius usually wins in lane vs vayne before she gets items

How do you even win lane against someone that pokes you down and that you literally can not touch because you get kited to oblivion? Yes, I'm talking about a non-retarded Vayne. I have beaten a Vayne before as Darius but he was like, Silver while i'm diam.

The Darius King1 votes

{quoted}

How do you even win lane against someone that pokes you down and that you literally can not touch because you get kited to oblivion? Yes, I'm talking about a non-retarded Vayne. I have beaten a Vayne before as Darius but he was like, Silver while i'm diam.

Well. depending on what their skill is i'll get either item 3076 first then item 3044 and build as normal. ill then get ninja tabis and I can beat her 1v1.

Sasogwa3 votes

[{quoted}](name=That One Darius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y6uBnQQe,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2018-01-08T17:49:28.403+0000)

Well. depending on what their skill is i'll get either item 3076 first then item 3044 and build as normal. ill then get ninja tabis and I can beat her 1v1.

Well he's gonna rush item 3006 item 3086 and have quite the movespeed as well.

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