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Dear Bronze players: KDA doesn't equal skill

Cunky··52 votes·2,869 views

This isn't the salt-infested banterings of a Platinum player mad at Riot for getting placed at Bronze 4 because they went 1-9 in their placements. No, I'm a Bronze player too. I've even been in the depths of Bronze. Bronze 5. And I'm not gonna say that I didn't deserve it. I was really bad at the beginning of this season, but I've gotten so much better over the course of this season. I escaped. I'm in Bronze 1 right now, hoping to get Silver by the end of the season. But that's not what this discussion is about. No, this is about a Bronze player and their only way to prove that they didn't deserve to get placed in Bronze 5 by clinging on to their KDA. Now, I enjoy playing Singed . I Love everything about his kit. I love running around like an idiot, gassing everybody on the enemy team like they're Je- people that have gotten locked in a car when somebody farted. And whenever I play proxy Singed , I tend to feed. Why? It's not because I'm a bad player (proportionally, anyways. I'm a good Bronzie but a terrible Diamond-y). It's because any time I proxy, somebody goes to stop me. The Top Laner will sacrifice waves of minions to get one feeble kill, and the Jungler will lose an entire level over our Jungler to get sweet sweet 50 gold, and a beautiful assist to start the game with. Well, KDA isn't everything. You could be 15/4, and not be carrying. I've played games where I went something like 0/4 on Nasus because I carried via scaling into the late game, splitpushing, shotcalling, and moral support for my team. And you can't just carry with KDA. You might be a Quinn Mid main, where as soon as you get level 6 you never stay in lane. You're miles ahead of your laner, a pitiful Veigar who stays in lane farming as you gank other lanes, getting kill after kill after- He just one shot you. The 0/1/1 Veigar just one shot you! But his KDA...

If you never farm, you aren't getting as much gold as somebody who perfectly last hits every minion. You might be camping Bot lane, where their Jhin /Taric is continually dying. But, let's say that one ranged minion is 17 gold, and one melee minion is 22 gold. That's 117 gold you're missing out on every 30 seconds (maybe 100 or less gold if you aren't a perfect farmer-lets be honest, who is). That's about more than a kill every 1 minute and 30 seconds.

And farming isn't everything. Knowing when to get the right tower, or dragon, or baron is key. A kill might be nice to get, but a dragon is permanent. But what about that wave that's bot lane? I mean my team's just taking the dragon, and it's worth like 500 gold... I could get my item...

Waves are temporary. Permanent things>Temporary things. AKA... Dragon, Turret, even Baron (even though it isn't permanent, the gold it gives is, and the raw pushing power is great>A kill Having good shotcalling can make you be the carry of the team, even if you're just an 0/5/7 Janna.

Anyways, back to Singed . If you see a Singed start to proxy you, welcome it with open arms! You get free cs under tower. However, don't welcome it with too open arms, because the minions will take your tower (duh). But if you see an 0/7 Singed start poking around behind your tower, don't use all your summs to kill him. There's a pretty good thing I found where it explains the gold per death mechanic > 1st death: 300 gold 2nd death: 275 gold 3rd death: 220 gold 4th death: 176 gold 5th death: 141 gold 6th death: 112 gold 7th death: 90 gold 8th death: 72 gold 9th death: 58 gold Every 1000 gold earned from minions / monsters reduces the death spree by 1 death Every assist reduces the death spree by 1

So you're using both your summs to get 90 gold. It's like flashing for 4 minions. Not that worth it, right? So don't use everything to kill somebody that's feeding, just to pad your KDA. Because KDA isn't everything. Like the title says, KDA doesn't equal skill. Because Faker lost lane to xPeke's Garen Mid, and Faker is still considered one of, if not the best, player in the world.

inb4 downvotes because of me calling out Bronzies in particular, I'm sure that more than just Bronzies are guilty of this. But, if you go and watch a singed420 video, or a SirchEZ video, you'll see that they pretty much can free farm behind the tower.

EDIT: Yes, I realize that more than just Bronzies care about KDA. However, it's mainly focused in Bronze, because the people stuck in it are probably the people that care about KDA and nothing else.

67 Comments

Linna Excel26 votes

Not dying is important though. Especially if you are the only fed person on your team.

AFK Push9 votes

idk who downvoted you, because they are idiots. You can't risk shutdown gold and exp if you have a big lead, because the people you were shitting on get so much exp and gold for killing you. Catchup exp isn't just a thing in the jungle it is the sole reason that you can't risk dying off of a snowball, because it will let your enemies catch back up quite easily.

Bob the Toastr6 votes

People like to throw in a "I'm sure I'll get downvoted but.." clause somewhere in their post or something similar because they can't handle the fact that people might disagree with them.

Granted, I agree with his post, but still.

Cunky1 votes

I realize that people will disagree with my post, I just don't want it to be salty Bronzies I'm addressing with this post.

Cowseed2 votes

It might not be that black and white. Not everyone who tells you not to die is "salty".

PB4UAME3 votes

It actually sling-shots people past you, which is the greatest piece of bullshit.

Patch 5.22 revert where.

woodvsmurph1 votes

It depends. If you are trading 1 for 1 to kill a low value target, sure it's not worth. If you are trading 1 for 1 to kill a high value target and let your team ultimately win a fight by zoning and going 1 for 1 with multiple fed enemies focusing you, then it is worth the shutdown. You can't solo carry if your teammates all die in 2 sec without dealing damage. If your death gets them back in the game so their damage matters too, so they can tank much more damage the next fight, it is worth. No you don't want to be needlessly wreckless or chasing kills. But you also can't afford to be a kda player and worry more about dying than about doing your job.

AFK Push1 votes

It's only ever worth you getting shutdown if your team wins unanimously off of it, never just trade if you have a lead. Especially if you are a splitpusher you can't risk the shutdown, you need to use that lead to crush and take objectives. Because if you let the enemy team get all that shutdown gold and catchup exp, their 4v4 can eventually become stronger off of you getting shutdown over and over.

woodvsmurph1 votes

And... the reverse is also true. If they can win 4v4 under tower, you can't just splitpush. Because they will deny your team vision, disappear from the map, and randomly 3-4 man gank you for splitting before any wards you drop can matter. This denies you the ability to splitpush, and your team - because they are SOOOOO BEHIND - will not have the vision, safety, or confidence to push out 4v3 or 4v2 and get an objective to punish the enemy for collapsing on you 3v1 or 4v1. Then you give a shutdown (or several), lose your lead, AND don't get anything for your teammates. It goes BOTH ways. Knowing when it's better to split vs when it's better to teamfight even WHEN you can 1v2 anyone on the map is the tricky part.

AFK Push1 votes

If you lock in trynd or my favorite right now yorick and you can't split because your team is just horrendous then its gg unless you hard carry, because you don't offer anything in teamfights. The sad reality is that you don't offer pretty much anything in full blown 5v5s either, so you have to split. Just because the 4v4 is terrible doesn't mean that you're 1v1 or 2v1 isn't going to work, the moment you see missing heads on the map you know they are going to be coming that's why you never go past where your minions are and float around until you actually know where they are at. If I see a teamfight going on in a different lane 4v4 maybe my team or the enemy team is sieging mid that means I force the side lane pressure whether that means I kill the offlaner to draw pressure or actually take tower depends on how much time I have.

Champion Skin2 votes

You can't risk shutdown gold and exp if you have a big lead

That isn't always the biggest issue what's even worse is that the player with the most power on the team is off the map giving the enemy team a huge advantage until that player gets back which will potentially let the enemy team get objectives for free because the team is too weak without that player

woodvsmurph1 votes

This is true; however, if dying = win teamfight and get objectives, dying is better. Riot's put out a vid and article or two on this about adc's living on the "knife's edge". Talking about adc's like Uzi and Doublelift playing agro at the right times (or wrong ones - insert tsm meme here) in order to carry a teamfight. I don't know how many games this season, I have gotten myself fed top or combo'd with a jungler to destroy enemy toplaner and jungler early while my bot goes combined 0/6/0 or worse. If my feeding bot lane groups and LISTENS to team, one of two things tends to happen - allowing us to win despite adc and sup carrying harder than any other role. 1. I split - getting kills and towers, then rotating to give team 5v4 fights or forcing multiple people to come stop my splitpush. If multiple people come, I either beat them anyway, or stall them for time and give my team the opening to look for a 4v3 or 4v2 fight and objective push. 2. I 5v5, look to burst out the enemy adc or fed midlaner - generally pulling 3 people's focus. Sure I don't get the kill, but my team can easily 4v2 mop up the enemy frontline, then finish off the enemies who barely killed me 3v1 in the teamfight. Since I've tanked all the enemy's cc, burst, and summoners, my nearly full hp teammates can definitely 4v3 when one enemy is half hp or lower. Sure I died despite having best kda on team and gave a shutdown, but I also got my carries fed that fight AND got them willing to BELIEVE we can win again. That's important too.

LordGeovanni1 votes

But trying to not die but forgoing or not pressing your advantage is stupid.

Kythers1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4qJyQX74,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-11-01T02:11:51.285+0000)

Not dying is important though. Especially if you are the only fed person on your team.

it's better to die accomplishing something than to live and do nothing at all

I'm looking at you 0 1 17 janna player who contributed absolutely nothing at any point

Daddy Ants7 votes

CS is more important than kills also.

Let's say we have a 25 minute game -

Player A is 0/0/0 and has 200 CS. Player B is 5/0/0 and has 100 CS.

They are actually equal gold income wise.

I'm guilty of it too, I chase a lot of kills unnecessarily.

CSing is the most reliable and risk free income of gold and without gold you don't get your big items.

Bobloser35555 votes

if you are dead you cannot cs...so no.

Jerry SeinfeId5 votes

low elo proxying is terrible though. Your team won't do anything with it and their jungler will just come and camp your ass.

Proxy requires a few things (from what i've seen): Your team to understand what you're doing, and not lose their shit about it. The enemy team to understand chasing you is a waste of time OR them not to knowing wtf you're doing and thus chasing you AND your team then understanding they get a 3V4 for free.

KDA doesn't equal skill but it's pretty damn important. first of all having a 15/4 in your team boosts morale and does the opposite for the enemies. If i can kill my enemy 5 times by 10 minutes that's 5 times he couldn't farm and i had free farm. Early game kills are worth 15 minions and affects masteries. less deaths = less gold for the enemy team. You get to pressure your lane pretty hard most of the time.

TiltoverEnforcer4 votes

I agree with you for the most part. However, a player who goes 4/0 in the first 6 minutes of the game can usually be said to have some amount of skill. That being said, skill and KDA are often correlated, but not causal.

JustSaiyan694 votes

I dunno this farming shit kinda pisses me off sometimes, especially when they have less kills less assists less cs and more deaths than me but somehow manage to get 2 levels ahead of me and closer to their item because they farmed for a measly 2 minutes.

It's like a huge middle finger to all the work I put in for my lead.

Succubús GF3 votes

I hate this too but I found that they do this thing called xp sapping. Where the player stands in lane longer, even if they have less cs or kills or more deaths. If they are in lane a long time they still get xp

Morally superior1 votes

Ask yourself why high elo players don't roam too often, and people rarely die or play aggressive needlessly... There you got your answer. You get so much garantueed exp and gold by just staying in lane and last hitting it's barely worth it to try and kill someone unless you get objectives. Especially considering that, when you roam, your opponent will push and you'll lose 1 or 2 waves (that's huge).

JustSaiyan691 votes

Then what's the point of even playing an assassin in higher elos?

Daddy Ants1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lady of Losses,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4qJyQX74,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2017-11-01T13:00:59.044+0000)

Ask yourself why high elo players don't roam too often, and people rarely die or play aggressive needlessly... There you got your answer. You get so much garantueed exp and gold by just staying in lane and last hitting it's barely worth it to try and kill someone unless you get objectives. Especially considering that, when you roam, your opponent will push and you'll lose 1 or 2 waves (that's huge).

They roam when the time is right or an opportunity arises.

Lower elo people tend to just roam freely when they think a kill is free in a side lane.

ZT Xperimentor4 votes

Bronze? I've seen some platinums trying to maximize k/d without taking objectives.

Azadethe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4qJyQX74,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-11-01T16:01:42.824+0000)

Bronze? I've seen some platinums trying to maximize k/d without taking objectives.

Depends on the champ. Evelynn is great at KDA but horrible at objectives on her new kit. Just part of the beast (She sucks at taking a Baron).

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

More like you need to know the field really. Just because your champion sucks at taking towers, doesn't mean they can't splitpush for map pressure; for example, lets say you're playing amumu tank, your AP isn't high enough for a bonus on taking towers, and your AD and AS already suck, however you can still proxy the enemy wave behind their tower so yours can start stacking up n the tower unimpeded. Obviously such a thing would be suicidal during laning phase, but trying to show that it's about ingenuity and attention to details. Another example could be assassin leesin, say you got invaded and put behind, of course it's going to be dangerous trying to farm or gank now; however once they start grouping up, you could do some recon for a hit & run, not enough to engage but to draw their attention, make them think you're setting up for a play to throw them off while your team takes advantage. Even though you're down doesn't mean you're out.

But what I'm getting at is the players who go out of their way to avoid pressuring objectives in favor of trying to take every kill. Summoner's rift is closer to capture the flag than a deathmatch, however some people are willfully ignorant.

Azadethe1 votes

If you stop killing with Eve, it's literally a death sentence for your team because then the other team will end up successfully grouping, and you either have to farm to get ahead, or you have to attempt to fight in a group fight. Lee sin can survive a group fight. Most times, Eve can't. She's basically kitted for one thing: Killing low HP targets or solo targets. She sucks at wave pushing. She sucks at lane pushing. She sucks at Baron. She's "okay" for drakes. She's okay at "faking an ambush" but that doesn't accomplish much..... it just puts her in a known vicinity so people know where to look.

She also sucks at picking out an adc in a group of 5 pushing, from both the front and the back. She can't exactly usually Delete the adc and Ult out; The adc will never be Q'd, and E isn't enough to kill. Lee on the other hand, can.

I know that some players seek KDA. But some champs do too. They have no other choice.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Haven't seen much of eve anywhere, but then again I just spectate the rift because it's so stale lately. And those champions were meant to be interchangeable in their role, which is why I said example. Most champions that can't telefrag, won't be able to assassinate the marksmen in a group anyway. Obviously assassins also rely on kills than farm, lol.

Azadethe3 votes

KDA is a forward indicator of skill on most champs, even singed. It's not about how your KDA is relative to other players. It's about your KDA vs other Singed's. If you are poor at warding to see those ganks coming as a proxy, you're a bad player. If you Singed vs teams you shouldn't rightly Singed vs, You MIGHT be a bad player.

You're talking skill as a Bronze. That's fine. I think every player has some vantage point to speak from. Still.... you have to admit that maybe you should listen to those higher than you, and that trying to figure out how to die less helps your team.

In the case of singed,...... pretty much any tanky build with a Righteous Glory and a Rylai's and Boots will guarantee you are a permanent annoyance. They key is to not die, so you can be an annoyance LONGER. If your proxy bait only lasts 40 seconds before you die, you're probably not doing a good job planning escape routes, and that's more time your teammates get to have the attention of the other team while you're dead. Like Nasus, the name of the game is to be a raid boss, and stay alive, so your teammates can push turrets while you are chased, and to push targets when the other team chases your teammates. And, sometimes, it's best for you to choose to join your teammates, because Singed polluting a team fight is just rediculously strong at setting up adcs for kills.

StanleyuUcH2 votes

kda is literally all i care about not winning not carrying just kda

ModWulf Helhammer4 votes

Well you're not going anywhere

StanleyuUcH2 votes

{quoted}

Well you're not going anywhere

you think i care?

PB4UAME1 votes

If you spend the time to play this game, a rational person would.

StanleyuUcH1 votes

{quoted}

If you spend the time to play this game, a rational person would.

I play this game only for a good KDA

StanleyuUcH2 votes

{quoted}

Well you're not going anywhere

if I don't care about winning what makes you think I care about laddering up?

PopcornBunni2 votes

See I've tried this farming thing, and what ends up happening is when I die, the enemy pushes forward and takes my tower then takes that lead else where on the map with their free pressure they got from having a lane opponent dead. Then I try to go kill another minion and lose half my health from the enemy in the process.

Is there a kind of live coaching system for this game to help with this sort of thing?

DragonShea2 votes

Got the highest kill once in one game, got B while the veigar I played with got an S.

AfterTheFall2 votes

They also have a tendency to only care about how much damage everyone did at the end of a game. They base how well a person did in a particular game by how much damage to champions you did. Completely asinine. Once had a guy tell me i was absolutely terrible bc "look at your damage to champions"......what he didnt stop think about was the fact that i was playing thresh support. No wonder i did no damage to champs....thats not my job. But nope he wasnt hearing that. I did no damage so i suck as a player lol im in gold 2 now and ppl still do this shit

ChuShoe2 votes

Dude, I can be 0/6/25 in a game with thresh, people don't care. They just want a scapegoat.

I was once 0/4/15 at 25 minutes with ryze, and this kha'zix comes flaming me for "feeding" people need to realize that there is an assists part of the game, and it is JUST AS EQUALLY IMPORTANT as anything else.

By the way, at the end of that game, I checked the graphs. Besides jayce, I had the highest damage in the game. I told kha'zix, he told me to kys and then left.

People don't care. I've just learned to mute once they start.

Azadethe1 votes

{quoted}

Dude, I can be 0/6/25 in a game with thresh, people don't care. They just want a scapegoat.

I was once 0/4/15 at 25 minutes with ryze, and this kha'zix comes flaming me for "feeding" people need to realize that there is an assists part of the game, and it is JUST AS EQUALLY IMPORTANT as anything else.

By the way, at the end of that game, I checked the graphs. Besides jayce, I had the highest damage in the game. I told kha'zix, he told me to kys and then left.

People don't care. I've just learned to mute once they start.

Getting high damage as ryze is never difficult. Doing something with it is. Some champions are always built to do sustained damage. That doesn't mean they did well, even if they had 15 assists.

Some champs, Assists are okay, like a Karma or a Nami. Ryze should have the kills, not the assists, and do about 50%-100% more damage than anyone else on the team, unless you also had an Anivia or a Brand.

The Kha didn't take it very well and deserves his reports, but You need to be accountable too and not try to defend yourself with assists on a champ that EXCELS at landing kills. You need to figure out what about your combos wasn't landing them.

ChuShoe1 votes

I think it's that I never actually put time into making a proper rune/mastery page for ryze. Partially the reason why I had more assists than kills in that particular game was because I was constantly roaming bot (extremely passive enemy mid laner was just sitting under turret) and letting our varus have the kills (this was during the ardent cancer meta)

Still, I think the context in which it happens still matters, though you are right, as playing a carry, you should have at least some kills to show for it.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

I love running around like an idiot, gassing everybody on the enemy team like they're Je- people that have...

What the actual fuck, did you just make a holocaust joke?

Cunky1 votes

I was hinting at it, yeah.

Galiö1 votes

People dont know math in league. One time i was flamed for being 0/3/0 in lane. But i had 180 cs vs my eneny laners 70 cs. I told him im way ahead and ge decided to int and said 'hey look im ahead now too' Welcome to the league of legends.

sutora31 votes

you described me perfectly (exept the quinn mid part , I play her adc because I cant play morde adc with a janna)

Raiyza1 votes

You need to think of it from the rest of the team's perspective.

If you're proxy singed top lane, and you end up 0/8, but took two towers, that means the enemy top laner and/or jungler is a total of 8 kills ahead. This also means that they are stronger in fights. So the problem is, now that they are 8 kills ahead, they can much easily fight 5v4 in mid lane while you're top.

See what I'm getting at? This happens so many times I see singed/Nasus.

However, you are right. KDA isn't everything.

Power Cosmic1 votes

KDA matters enormously on killers and ranged carries. If you are a low KDA Assassin, Mage, or Marksman, you are a weight (that doesn't end up carrying) on basically every team you play on and should never play with anyone good; ever. And on top of that, should be match made to change your ways or never get out of B5.

While if you are a low KDA Nunu, Nasus, or Teemo you could be doing a good job for your team.

Noblewind1 votes

I love the assassin players in bronze who know how to combo their kit well, but that's about it. They go 5-0 early but sit on 50cs at 15mins and roam all game without realizing that they are actually losing their team the game.

BobaFlautist1 votes

Your strategy relies on your opponents not understanding what you're doing. Don't be surprised if your allies don't either.

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