Riots stated in the reasoning for getting rid of AP from sheen was "Removing AP and adding cooldown reduction adds more synergies for the champions who want the Spellblade passive without forcing an often-'wasted' stat on them" but they left the sapphire crystal which gives mana. There are plenty of champs that benefit from sheen that don't even have mana. How is that not a wasted stat?
EndlessSorcerer3 votesSheen is an item that you benefit from when you use abilities due to Spellblade.
CDR and Mana are two stats which help you use abilities more frequently due to lowing ability cooldowns and increasing your resources (mana).
Manaless champions don't need the increase in resources since they have no long-term limit to their ability usage (unless it is specific to their resource type). While they don't benefit from mana, that is because their abilities don't have any mana cost which removes the long-term limit on their ability usage.
P0ETRYNMOTION1 votesTrue It does benefit from abilities. Ability power is just that power for abilities. many champs still have it even non mages. That still doesn't counter my point that it is wasted money for champs that don't need any mana for sustain.
EndlessSorcerer2 votesWhile AP does help some abilities, it only benefits champions with AP scalings.
If a champion such as Talon or Vayne wanted to purchase Sheen/Trinity Force for extra burst damage (just as an example), then they would be wasting the AP.
CDR benefits abilities no matter how they scale (with the exception of passive and toggled abilities). In addition, CDR works better with Sheen's concept; it provides mana so that you can use more abilities and it provides CDR so you can use abilities more often, both of which synergize with Spellblade.
P0ETRYNMOTION1 voteswhat about riven or renekton. they benefit quite a bit from the sheen/trinity passive but they have neither mana nor ap how was that ok? even now that they got rid of the ap they are still left in the lurch cause they have to waste money on it.
EndlessSorcerer2 votesThe mana on Sheen exists primarily to allow the user to use their abilities a greater number of times.
Riven and Renekton's abilities aren't limited by their resources, so they can use their abilities as many times as they wish.
Those champions are manaless; while this means that they don't benefit from building mana, they have aboslutely no need of it since their abilities are free to cast.
P0ETRYNMOTION1 votesyes but they have to waste money on it, money matters just as much for them. They were balanced with the fact that they don't have mana or energy. So they have some other negatives like maybe longer cooldowns or whatever riot felt was necissary to keep them from bein op. So making them spend money on mana that they can't use does not make sense.
EndlessSorcerer2 votesThey aren't made to spend money on mana that they won't use. They can just opt to buy different, more efficient items and enjoy the fact that they can use their abilities whenever they want.
If they decide their want to purchase Sheen or other mana items, then that is their decision. That does not mean that champions who rely on mana should be punished just to make Sheen more efficient on mana-less champions.
If you wouldn't purchase Zhonya's Hourglass on Vayne because it provides AP and you wouldn't purchase Essence Reaver on Yasuo because it provides mana regeneration and CDR, why would you want to purchase mana items on mana-less champions?
P0ETRYNMOTION1 voteswell the same can be said for the ap.
They aren't made to spend money on ap that they won't use. They can just opt to buy different, more efficient items and enjoy the fact that they can use their attacks as a fifth ability on a cooldown of less than a second.
If they decide their want to purchase Sheen or other ap items, then that is their decision. That does not mean that champions who rely on ap should be punished just to make Sheen more efficient on ap-less champions.
see what I did there?
EndlessSorcerer2 votesThe AP on Sheen was changed to CDR because CDR benefits nearly every ability in the game while AP does not, making the item more general and providing better synergy with Spellblade.
That same argument cannot be used to justify removing mana. Mana allows champions to use their abilities more, which lets them proc Spellblade more.
P0ETRYNMOTION1 votesyes cdr does help every champ in the game so they got rid of something and added something that would help all champs. well lets get rid of the mana and add something that would help all champs as well.
oh and you keep editing its very hard to keeep track
DJ Di02 votesyes but they have to waste money on it, money matters just as much for them. They were balanced with the fact that they don't have mana or energy. So they have some other negatives like maybe longer cooldowns or whatever riot felt was necissary to keep them from bein op. So making them spend money on mana that they can't use does not make sense.
....
Sheen items 
are primarily used with champions with low cooldowns that also need mana to be able to do more rotations. 
There are some champions that don't have mana as a resource that also buy these items, such as: 
200 mana is a wasted stat, yes, but they get it for the spellblade passive.
P0ETRYNMOTION2 votesyes they get it for the spellblade passive which is why non ap champs should be ok with buying ap to get it as well.
Kitten of Evil2 votesTo be fair, 11 of those 13 champs actually did benefit from the AP it used to provide. Hell, the only reason Quinn had AP scaling on her Q was because they didn't want Sheen/Triforce stats be wasted on her.
So... 11 of 13 benefit from at least some AP scaling. Versus 8 of 13 benefit from at least some mana.
Still seems like they're not solving the "wasted stats" for the champion pool that uses it most.
LordGeovanni2 votesexcept many people already have item paths that max out their cdr and and then extra cdr on trinity and sheen becomes wasted
Josheheh1 voteswell they wouldn't be wasting the ap on triforce never forget
Big Lincoln3 votesthat's kind of the point of manaless champs; they don't have to buy anything to give them more resources but get less gold efficiency out of items that do just that
P0ETRYNMOTION4 votesI don't think that's true. The point of them is not to waste money. Besides that could also be said with non ap champs.
that's kind of the point of ap-less champs; they don't have to buy anything to give them more ap but get less gold efficiency out of items that do just that.
Big Lincoln4 votesi don't think that's the same point, so no, you couldn't.
an AP-less champion isn't going to benefit from any of the items that grant them AP because they don't scale with it. a resourceless champion will still benefit from items that happen to have mana on them but won't use all of the stats they grant; they don't use it as efficiently but still benefit from having it.
a means of scaling =/= a boost to resources.
EndlessSorcerer1 votesThank you.
P0ETRYNMOTION2 votesonce again.
a mana-less champion isn't going to benefit from any of the items that grant them mana because they don't scale with it. an ap-less champion will still benefit from items that happen to have ap on them but won't use all of the stats they grant; they don't use it as efficiently but still benefit from having it.
EndlessSorcerer2 votesChampions without AP-scalings may benefit from AP items due to the other stats, actives and passives that they provide.
Champions without mana may benefit from mana items due to the other stats, actives and passives that they provide.
P0ETRYNMOTION2 votessay they came up with an item that grants energy champs more sustain but the item was just as powerful as trinity force would that be fair to mana champs?
anyhow this is getting off subject. I quoted riots reasoning. They said they did not like having champs wasting money on useless stats. Trinity force is a jack of all trades item that had 2 stats that some champs wasted money on, Mana and AP AP was taken out for that reason then mana should be as well. Otherwise they need to change their reasoning.
EndlessSorcerer2 votesIf you are suggesting that they created an item specifically for energy champions (Zed, Lee Sin, Akali, Kennen, Shen), then that entirely depends on Riot deciding that it's a good idea. Riot has said in the past that they wouldn't create such an item because the item would be useful on an extremely small number of champions who have specifically been balanced around not having items to increase their resource pool.
Would the item's existence be fair to mana-using champions though? Yes, it would provided that the stats, actives, and passives on the item are balanced in comparison to other items. They don't have to purchase the item, they have many other options which may provide useful and/or more optimal stats, and they could purchase the item anyways if they decided whatever the item provided it was worth wasting a small amount of gold on a resource they don't use.
P0ETRYNMOTION2 votesdid you even read the second paragraph?
Big Lincoln4 votesThat's not how mana works for anybody, except Singed and Ryze.
Mana is a gate resource, AP is a scaling resource. You buy mana items either to have more resource to throw around in fights (common for tanks to get Frozen Heart or Iceborn Gauntlet), but also because most of those items have other effects (FH attack speed reduction, Iceborn slow fields). Resourceless champions aren't supposed to benefit from it; because they're investing gold into an item that grants a resource they don't have. You CAN buy these items for their passives, but if you are manaless, then you won't get full use out of it, and this is fair; you don't have a resource to begin with. If you want to dip into these items, accept that you won't use the gold you sunk into their mana costs.
AP is for scaling on abilities for the champions that have those ratios. Champions who are not primarily AP will get nothing out of building it; Vayne does not use Deathcap or Luden's well, because she doesn't synergize with it at all. At best, these champs will get Zhonya's to cheese an assassin, or maybe a Liandry's in special cases (Mundo). AP is not a gate; mana is.
A champion who has no resource and invests into Sheen will still take advantage of both the CDR and the spellblade. They are able to use it efficiently, but not as efficiently as someone who has mana. A champion with no AP ratios will get much less out of sinking gold into AP items because they can do nothing with the offensive stats provided.
LordGeovanni1 votesits is the same point but switching around ap and mana its exactly the same except the resorces
Hyrum Graff3 votesMana on an item makes it less attractive to manaless users. AP on an item makes it less attractive to AD champs (though many do have AP scalings).
Neither of these things are wrong. It's simply a matter of who you want to market an item towards. Riot decided they wanted to market sheen towards mana users, and Trinity towards AD mana users. If their goal were to market it towards manaless ADs, they'd change the build path and remove the mana.
Point is, it's a design choice, not an accident.
P0ETRYNMOTION3 voteswell they didn't use that reasoning in there explanation. That's why I quoted their reasoning. if they would just say that rather than say "Removing AP and adding cooldown reduction adds more synergies for the champions who want the Spellblade passive without forcing an often-'wasted' stat on them" Then I would be satisfied. But they didn't they made it out to be that they didn't want to make people waste money on stats they couldnt use.
Hyrum Graff2 voteswell they didn't use that reasoning in there explanation. That's why I quoted their reasoning. if they would just say that rather than say "Removing AP and adding cooldown reduction adds more synergies for the champions who want the Spellblade passive without forcing an often-'wasted' stat on them" Then I would be satisfied. But they didn't they made it out to be that they didn't want to make people waste money on stats they couldnt use.
Agreed here, and that's likely a communication issue between the designers who made the change and the guys who wrote the patch notes.
LordGeovanni3 votesim pretty sure more mana less champs used trinity force more than champions with no ap ratios at all
P0ETRYNMOTION1 votesThank you. finally someone that understands.
LordGeovanni1 voteswith the loss of ap and reduction of ad and attack speed the item is over all less attractive to every champion who used it before on a regular except Corki and Kogmaw
Mimy1 votes is quite strong with with how spamming Q and W can be weaving them inbetween AA espically...
If you manage to get the +200% damage from the item.. AND the +80% damage from the W passive... RIP
But there 
is also good on him with his W Passive... along with 
... I was doing Orange and purple damage on people at the same time..
1 AA and it was like 600 in orange.. and 600 in Purple.. and im like WTF IS THIS DAMAGE?!?!?
250% damage from IE and the 80% Damage.. that's 330% damage...
by this time I had 
doing 1.2k Damage within a second.
I have yet to test out tri force with the new runnans
P0ETRYNMOTION1 votesI'm not saying it's not still useful I'm just saying it's a wasted stat. It was useful enough for non ap champs to buy before and its probly still useful enough for non mana champs to pick up but that doesn't mean it's not wasted money to buy sapphire crystal
Mimy1 votesI agree with everything.. but Kennen doesn't need mana and I find it useful on him sometimes... I don't think people care about the wasted stat if it can benefit them greater in some other way. :3
P0ETRYNMOTION1 votesI'm sure you're not the only one that feels that way. but I figure people felt that way when ap was in there. So why change, everyone was happy?
Mimy1 votesI sorta miss the bit of AP sorta gave me as an AD kennen some ZING because I scale more off AP than AD.. but AD isn't weaker by comparison... trust me, it can be just as melting if probably not more... I play him AP and AD.. they're both strong..
(Wish he had more AD scalings he'd be OP then..xD)
P0ETRYNMOTION1 voteswouldn't you like it more though if you didn't have to waste that money on mana and got something like cdr instead? Cause that would actually be useful.
Mimy1 votesit'd be perfect on kennen than.. xD
SaltyKracka1 votesBecause resourceless champions can learn to eat some inefficiency if they really want sheen procs.
P0ETRYNMOTION1 votesSo I take it you think resourceless champs are op?
SaltyKracka3 votesI think that if a character gets to avoid having to manage resources, they don't get to complain about items being more efficient on the characters that actually have resources.
P0ETRYNMOTION2 voteswell the point of my post is that the logic they used doesn't make sense. a champ with no ap ratios gets ad ratios. so not only do they get abilities that scale with ad but their auto attack as well. They don't have to choose one or the other. so why should people care if they have to waste some money on some ap?
SaltyKracka1 votesAP champs didn't really rely on base Sheen as much as Ad and fighter champs did.
Besides, they've still got their AP sheen upgrades (Runeglaive, Lich Bane).
LordGeovanni1 votesno but hybrid champs that wanted both did and in addition to that they lessened the ad amount and attack speed for crit that no one but kog maw was useing 3 stats gone for one stack to help one champion and incidently vayne will now be able to build it without running into stats she doesnt want
ItsStout1 votesBecause manaless champs would abuse sheen. Imagine Riven with it... no. Just no.
Its a nice tool for mana users, and that's a good way for it to be.
P0ETRYNMOTION1 votesThey still use it anyway
ItsStout1 votesYes, but they would abuse it. Also, which manaless champs? I rarely buy sheen on a champ that doesnt use mana, cept for Trinity Force on bruisers (which is already crazy stat-wise).