If Ornn is getting nerfed again...

Nolafus·Feb 3, 2018·102 votes·4,054 views

Then can we get the unstoppable added back? It's obvious that it wasn't the nerf he really needed, and it wouldn't be that bad to just say that the nerf didn't do what you were hoping, and it ended up hurting his overall kit instead of weakening it.

It was a really cool aspect that rewarded good play and timing, but there wasn't any punishment for spamming it off of its really low cooldown. Getting rid of that aspect just made his kit simpler and nerfed experienced players. Without that added skill and nerfing the damage on top of that, I'm afraid he'll fall to the bottom and left to rot.

Please don't kill one of my last remaining top laners.

81 Comments

Dreadlocke101Feb 3, 201822 votes

I believe to compensate for unstoppable, his W should be placed on a higher cooldown and the damage should be changed from max % hp to current hp.

AS I LAY FEEDINGFeb 3, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I believe to compensate for unstoppable, his W should be placed on a higher cooldown and the damage should be changed from max % hp to current hp.

You are not supposed to compensate overtuned tanks. When something is overtuned you remove mechanics. For example look at Old Lee Sin and now.

ADC5LUTFeb 3, 20186 votes

Leesin is always over tuned.[sg-miss-fortune]

Z3SleeperFeb 3, 201815 votes

I personally think the max HP change was perfectly fine. The problem was that they didn't change the number at all when they did this so going from current % to max % was a straight HUGE buff (which he arguably needed at the time).

They just need to reduce the % value (Edit: on Brittle) which in turn will reduce his Ult damage which will then make him both more balanced in lane and teamfights.

And ofcourse add back unstoppable. I've never found unstoppable to be the reason he was strong ever.

Chembaron YamadaFeb 4, 20185 votes

They did change the numbers.

Originally, Ornn's W did 25% current health as damage, when they changed it to max health, they made it 20%. And they followed up with another nerf changing it to 18%.

Z3SleeperFeb 4, 20182 votes

Sorry I confused myself. I was thinking about both functions of W but talking about each one without identifying.

I meant they needed to reduce his Brittle % health damage now. And that would make him more balanced in lane and teamfights.

Dreadlocke101Feb 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Sorry I confused myself. I was thinking about both functions of W but talking about each one without identifying.

I meant they needed to reduce his Brittle % health damage now. And that would make him more balanced in lane and teamfights.

That seems fair. I have heard that part of the reason Ornn can be oppressive in laning phase aside from the zoning of W on such a spammable skill is the fact that the brittle damage is also effectively a zoning tool. If it's lowered enough early on, it could work.

Dreadlocke101Feb 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I personally think the max HP change was perfectly fine. The problem was that they didn't change the number at all when they did this so going from current % to max % was a straight HUGE buff (which he arguably needed at the time).

They just need to reduce the % value which in turn will reduce his Ult damage which will then make him both more balanced in lane and teamfights.

And ofcourse add back unstoppable. I've never found unstoppable to be the reason he was strong ever.

That's also a good change. Anyways, as long as the damage is lowered and the cooldown is upped, I think Ornn will be in a nice spot.

NvestmentPlankerFeb 4, 20182 votes

it started out as current hp and the damage on it was garbage. that skill was only useful for the shield when he first came out. the max hp damage is fine. just needs to be lowered a tad.

Dreadlocke101Feb 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

it started out as current hp and the damage on it was garbage. that skill was only useful for the shield when he first came out. the max hp damage is fine. just needs to be lowered a tad.

If so, then I agree with your claim. The damage needs to be lowered in some way. Leaving him alone is not going to fix the issue that makes him unreasonably strong.

LordGeovanniFeb 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I believe to compensate for unstoppable, his W should be placed on a higher cooldown and the damage should be changed from max % hp to current hp.

The max hp thing is what caused all of Ornns problems he was as troll as Nunu when he came out because he had current hp damage when all the rest of his kit scaled so bad and was hard to hit. Ornn should get his unstoppable back and have his max hp damage reverted to current hp damage his cooldown on w should not be touched. Leave him in that state for 2 weeks he goes back to being a troll pick then you can touch other parts of his kit like giving Q and E ap scaling or giving e ad scaling. Removing the 1 second charge up from his e that he can be knocked out of his e (either that or lower its cooldown) let ornns q travel faster upon cast things like that are what ornn needs not damage changes to damage and taking away his utility. his kit is just clunky and bad out side of his W and it doesn't scale well either that made him win early lane some times but when he did he couldnt keep ahead because only his q scaled with ad and only his ult scaled with ap while his w didnt scale with anything but levels in it and his e 1 didnt hit hard even if you hit both parts and its armor and magic resist scaling was and is horrible

And A Real HieroFeb 3, 201814 votes

Give it back, nerf the cooldown and the damage on that stupid fucking breath and we're good.

BALDG1VEN BOOMERFeb 3, 201813 votes

How often does Riot revert nerfs they give? Beating a dead horse here.

Yordle XayahFeb 3, 201811 votes

Please don't kill one of my last remaining top laners

Like that has stopped them in the past to destroy problematic champions... oh but Twitch is allowed to exist :)

AR URFFeb 3, 20189 votes

Good riddance. I hated how much dmg he did.

NolafusFeb 3, 201815 votes

Seriously, I got mastery 7 with him, thought he was in a good state, and they continued to buff him. I thought for sure they were just going to reduce the ridiculous amounts of damage they put on him, but they're gutting his kit instead.

Cryo00Feb 3, 20186 votes

The only problem that I find with Ornn is his damage. Its fucking hilarious as you get your enemy laner to half health on a single Q/W auto combo.

FlameHalbrdOkidoFeb 3, 20185 votes

they should either nerf his dmg, or remove his %hp dmg or nerf that, either way he should get the "unstoppable" mechanic back...

BUT on 2 conditions 1: Ornn only blocks CC in a cone in the direction cast (basically its like he melts the abilities before they touch him) 2: the CC block is only active for a short duration at the beginning of the ability

This will serve to increase skill expression and reduce how overbearing it can be

Chembaron YamadaFeb 3, 20184 votes

Getting rid of that aspect just made his kit simpler and nerfed experienced players.

This was exactly what they were aiming for. Ornn is performing insanely well in high levels of play, while people new to him and low elo players are doing just fine.

They wanted to hit people who mastered Ornn with that nerf.

Mokuto BunshiFeb 3, 20182 votes

Sad to think they had to attack his skill cap :/ But they say it had to be done...

AS I LAY FEEDINGFeb 4, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mokuto Bunshi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wXMpHE4W,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-02-03T20:14:06.278+0000)

Sad to think they had to attack his skill cap :/

there is no skill in ornn and unstoppable was up every 4sec

Dreadlocke101Feb 4, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Top Deck,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wXMpHE4W,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-02-04T02:00:38.822+0000)

there is no skill in ornn and unstoppable was up every 4sec

I won't argue against there being skill in Ornn or not because it's fairly obvious you're biased against him, but unstoppable was not his main problem. It was the damage. They nerfed the wrong thing, and they need to nerf the main problem instead.

Mokuto BunshiFeb 4, 20181 votes

That and probably the shield as well.

Dreadlocke101Feb 5, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mokuto Bunshi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wXMpHE4W,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-04T22:53:22.680+0000)

That and probably the shield as well.

The shield is certainly annoying to deal with, but it's not the main problem of his W.

Mokuto BunshiFeb 6, 20181 votes

I agree the main prob is the dmg, but I think if they take the power out of that ability, they should do a 75% dmg and 25% shield nerf. I have legit seen this guy survive with no health due to that shield. Maybe its a cooldown issue? I'm not quite sure...

Dreadlocke101Feb 6, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mokuto Bunshi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wXMpHE4W,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-06T02:02:35.980+0000)

I agree the main prob is the dmg, but I think if they take the power out of that ability, they should do a 75% dmg and 25% shield nerf. I have legit seen this guy survive with no health due to that shield. Maybe its a cooldown issue? I'm not quite sure...

It is indeed a cooldown issue and not the shield itself. The problem with it is that it's so readily available, but with the cooldown on his W, he can spam the shield and take considerably less damage than other tanks.

Mokuto BunshiFeb 6, 20181 votes

I take back most of what I said, just laned against him as Bruiser Kled (my main), and that dmg is NOT FAIR XD. 90% of his nerf should have been dmg, you're right. I rushed BC as a % dmg dealing bruiser and STILL couldn't win trades XD. Then on TOP of that everyone had his items late game XD

My HeartshakerFeb 4, 20184 votes

it's literally pressing one button

how is that "skill expression" in any way

General Esdeath Feb 4, 20182 votes

Because you can time it perfectly to avoid CC and know when to use it and when to hold it. It can also be baited out, like GP oranges, Fiora W, Riven E, etc.

My HeartshakerFeb 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Because you can time it perfectly to avoid CC and know when to use it and when to hold it. It can also be baited out, like GP oranges, Fiora W, Riven E, etc.

so can about a million other abilities be baited out as well, what makes ornn w any different?

c'mon dude, you can't be seriously saying press w at a particular time is skill expression, pretty sure anyone can do that.

General Esdeath Feb 5, 20183 votes

Skill expression =/= some big flashy 200 IQ 50 APM right between frames 27 and 33 play.

Skill expression is anything from skillshots to watching the map. It was Ornns only real skill expression and gave him a solution for chain CC, which is the counter to most champs.

CaveslothFeb 4, 20182 votes

I'd just like to see his item crafting be a bit more intelligent so he can do better as a support or a jg without having to constantly back.

THE RlVER KlNGFeb 4, 20182 votes

the whole point of the ability was that he charges forward as he does the fire breath, therefore the ability can miss and you can fuck up with it on anyone smart enough to sidestep.

the problem is is that the hitbox is broken and it just does so much damage to begin with. the unstoppable was never the problem. the hitbox was.

Dreadlocke101Feb 4, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wXMpHE4W,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2018-02-04T02:56:09.229+0000)

the whole point of the ability was that he charges forward as he does the fire breath, therefore the ability can miss and you can fuck up with it on anyone smart enough to sidestep.

the problem is is that the hitbox is broken and it just does so much damage to begin with. the unstoppable was never the problem. the hitbox was.

It's in one of the older patch notes that they made Ornn's W flare out at the very last tick as it applies brittle. This was because Ornn in that state was far too clunky and predictable to be able to smoothly transition between spells or land anything at all. I still believe it should flare out. The only problem with Ornn's W is the damage that is applied.

AmazoXFeb 4, 20182 votes

The unstoppable is what Ornn playable in the first place, bring it back and nerf elsewhere, give him LOWER damage.

xelakerFeb 4, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Then can we get the unstoppable added back? It's obvious that it wasn't the nerf he really needed, and it wouldn't be that bad to just say that the nerf didn't do what you were hoping, and it ended up hurting his overall kit instead of weakening it.

It was a really cool aspect that rewarded good play and timing, but there wasn't any punishment for spamming it off of its really low cooldown. Getting rid of that aspect just made his kit simpler and nerfed experienced players. Without that added skill and nerfing the damage on top of that, I'm afraid he'll fall to the bottom and left to rot.

Please don't kill one of my last remaining top laners.

I'd give him the unstoppable back if they smushed his damage. right now he has 7 flavors of cc, good waveclear, and solid damage.

DorkunedAurasFeb 4, 20181 votes

Given that we're talking about him getting other nerfs after losing the unstoppable, we're saying we want the unstoppable back in exchange for said nerfs.

xelakerFeb 4, 20181 votes

yea, but you know that a lot of these people want a nerf that's something like "his w cd is .5 seconds longer at rank 1"

vgamedudeFeb 3, 20181 votes

Literally has mediocre to trash winrate and they keep nerfing him because of casters crying.

BârdFeb 4, 20185 votes

They're nerfing him because he's stupidly strong.

The issue is that they're removing everything that makes him fun before the things that are actually problems.

vgamedudeFeb 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

They're nerfing him because he's stupidly strong.

The issue is that they're removing everything that makes him fun before the things that are actually problems.

How is he strong? By what measurement?

Dreadlocke101Feb 4, 20183 votes

{quoted}

How is he strong? By what measurement?

It's mostly how oppressive he is in laning phase when he shouldn't be so much of a threat early on. Mid-Late game should be when Ornn shines, but it seems they ignored that entirely and Ornn has no definable weak stage in the game. They need to shift his power towards late game instead of keeping him a threat to your melee top laner early on.

vgamedudeFeb 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

It's mostly how oppressive he is in laning phase when he shouldn't be so much of a threat early on. Mid-Late game should be when Ornn shines, but it seems they ignored that entirely and Ornn has no definable weak stage in the game. They need to shift his power towards late game instead of keeping him a threat to your melee top laner early on.

By what measure is he so strong in lane? His winrate is not even good.

Dreadlocke101Feb 4, 20182 votes

{quoted}

By what measure is he so strong in lane? His winrate is not even good.

Winrates don't clearly define how strong a champion is. Think Ryze and Azir for example, they don't have the most appealing of winrates, but you consistently see them picked at higher elos. The reason Ornn is oppressive in laning phase is aside from zoning off melee champions from farming with his W, the brittle debuff after he applies it lasts far too long. That is a six second window where you, early on, will most likely be unable to trade efficiently against Ornn or farm without pressure at all. Remember that it also does a burst of percent max hp added onto the amount of damage the W itself applies. Tanks should not be so oppressive early game.

vgamedudeFeb 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Winrates don't clearly define how strong a champion is. Think Ryze and Azir for example, they don't have the most appealing of winrates, but you consistently see them picked at higher elos. The reason Ornn is oppressive in laning phase is aside from zoning off melee champions from farming with his W, the brittle debuff after he applies it lasts far too long. That is a six second window where you, early on, will most likely be unable to trade efficiently against Ornn or farm without pressure at all. Remember that it also does a burst of percent max hp added onto the amount of damage the W itself applies. Tanks should not be so oppressive early game.

Yeah and even at higher elos (plat+) they have shit winrates. Just because they're picked doesn't make their wr good. Ryze is picked in competitive organized play.

Violet FieldsFeb 4, 20181 votes

Riot already killed all MY top laners:

Jayce (not so much) Kennen Rammus Malphite

General Esdeath Feb 4, 20182 votes

Jayce have you no shame?

sutora3Feb 4, 20182 votes

Kennen he obviously doesnt not

ak521Feb 4, 20181 votes

100% agreed.

They should lower his ulti cooldown for late game, too. That's his pretty much only useful ability for the team, besides tanking the turret.

Ranged champions could also easily screw up Ornn.

Dreadlocke101Feb 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

100% agreed.

They should lower his ulti cooldown for late game, too. That's his pretty much only useful ability for the team, besides tanking the turret.

Ranged champions could also easily screw up Ornn.

The ultimate nerf that came with the recent patches is exactly what Ornn needed, and it now forces Ornn players to be wiser with it. Saying that it's his only useful ability is ignoring all of the other utility he provides. Not to mention the masterwork upgrades. He is the only source of Brittle in the entire game.