@Riot concerning Garens´ balance state

Delebru·Sep 17, 2016·18 votes·1,531 views

I´d just like to know how u guys at Riot feel about Garen right now, because i think he´s in no good state atm. He lacks some mechanics to play around and to lessen his predictability in my opinion.

32 Comments

specter424Sep 17, 20164 votes

Garen is god fucking awful. Nobody outside of Bronze or Silver is playing him and for good reason.

PennsSep 17, 20161 votes

Still a better win rate than Fizz in Plat+ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

specter424Sep 17, 20161 votes

people pick fizz thinking he is op but he is easily abused in laning phase and proceeds to do nothing the whole game ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

AptestSep 17, 20162 votes

people pick fizz because he's FUN.

garen? I still don't understand why people pick him when they can close down league and hop over to the nearest amusement park and ride a proper carousel.

PennsSep 17, 20162 votes

Actually Id say Fizz is pretty good in lane after level 2 with thunderlords now. Its just that he cant do anything well other than burst a single target that got hit by his slow skillshot before lul

NovaDiskSep 26, 20161 votes

Garen's still OK in most of Plat but starts getting hard to play around P1, and hits a wall at low-diamond.

NovaDiskSep 26, 20161 votes

This. Garen is sorely lacking right now balance-wise, and I really hope Riot does something to make him more viable in higher levels of play.

Tychusfindlay919Sep 17, 20164 votes

Garen needs the villain removed and have that general power placed back into his kit so he can lay the beatdown on all targets, not just one target.

With the removal of villain, I would have demacian justice be given a scale.

For every 50 total ad, demacian justice deals an additional 1%/2%/3% missing HP

Also, there needs to be a mechanic to allow garen to pierce mr for his ult, otherwise it would be better to just have demacian justice be AD so that cleaver (typical garen item) softens enemies up for an execute.

In fact, it should be AD because if you have ever tried to ult a non villain ad carry who for whatever reason bought maw of malmortius or merc scimitar, it makes you as garen feel like worthless shit. Since ADCs dont have armor options, I think an ad demacian justice may be better for garen overall.

FallenSeruvimSep 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Garen needs the villain removed and have that general power placed back into his kit so he can lay the beatdown on all targets, not just one target.

With the removal of villain, I would have demacian justice be given a scale.

For every 50 total ad, demacian justice deals an additional 1%/2%/3% missing HP

Also, there needs to be a mechanic to allow garen to pierce mr for his ult, otherwise it would be better to just have demacian justice be AD so that cleaver (typical garen item) softens enemies up for an execute.

In fact, it should be AD because if you have ever tried to ult a non villain ad carry who for whatever reason bought maw of malmortius or merc scimitar, it makes you as garen feel like worthless shit. Since ADCs dont have armor options, I think an ad demacian justice may be better for garen overall.

These are some amazing ideas to work with :D.

KyrrionSep 17, 20163 votes

Garen's never been in a good state.

The issue isn't that he has a simple kit, it's that his kit doesn't actually allow Garen to really do anything. His abilities synergize, but they don't really have a concrete focus. Garen is just... Garen.

Critmaster GarenSep 17, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Garen's never been in a good state.

The issue isn't that he has a simple kit, it's that his kit doesn't actually allow Garen to really do anything. His abilities synergize, but they don't really have a concrete focus. Garen is just... Garen.

he was in a good state for a whole year until the mage update. he was viable up until diamond.

since im not going to play in tournaments or challenger/master, i dont give a fuck about anything else tbh. but with the boot enchant removal, repeated nerfs of his items including swifties, and league of rylais, he took a large hit and needs some buffs to compensate.

Tychusfindlay919Sep 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w82paml5,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-09-17T19:36:15.024+0000)

he was in a good state for a whole year until the mage update. he was viable up until diamond.

since im not going to play in tournaments or challenger/master, i dont give a fuck about anything else tbh. but with the boot enchant removal, repeated nerfs of his items including swifties, and league of rylais, he took a large hit and needs some buffs to compensate.

Yeah, I think he can use some base stat loving to offset some of the nerfs to juggy items.

One good thing that has kept darius viable after all the nerfs to the juggy items is that his base stats are incredible, matched only by illaoi and new yorick.

TroiannSep 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, I think he can use some base stat loving to offset some of the nerfs to juggy items.

One good thing that has kept darius viable after all the nerfs to the juggy items is that his base stats are incredible, matched only by illaoi and new yorick.

Also because when you pick darius you have some form of utility/peel and your passive still does good damage. Even if you lose you won't be total dead weight, just almost dead weight. Also he has sustain in fights.

Garen is just running at you with damage. He's annoying, but like olaf your adc will shred him late game.

Tychusfindlay919Sep 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Also because when you pick darius you have some form of utility/peel and your passive still does good damage. Even if you lose you won't be total dead weight, just almost dead weight. Also he has sustain in fights.

Garen is just running at you with damage. He's annoying, but like olaf your adc will shred him late game.

True, garen has no real form of peel, but he's a bit tankier than darius with his W and his ult is (or at least should be) more reliable since it doesn't operate on a stacking mechanic. Garen's spin is a ton more reliable in range since the enemy doesn't have the opportunity to walk in garen's face and take only half damage. Garen's spin actually deals rather respectable damage and allows him to stack cleaver much much faster than darius can for his carries to maximize damage.

Garen is gimped because he had a villain mechanic forced onto his kit, sapping power budget that can be used universally and channeling it towards one target on the enemy team which he usually struggles immensely to get to anyways.

NovaDiskSep 26, 20161 votes

I wouldn't mind Garen getting a little more Base AD scaling.

KyrrionSep 17, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w82paml5,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-09-17T19:36:15.024+0000)

he was in a good state for a whole year until the mage update. he was viable up until diamond.

since im not going to play in tournaments or challenger/master, i dont give a fuck about anything else tbh. but with the boot enchant removal, repeated nerfs of his items including swifties, and league of rylais, he took a large hit and needs some buffs to compensate.

What you call "good state" is probably what I refer to as an "average state", where the champion can be picked up, learned, and find reasonably success by any player (though may find difficulty at highest levels of play). So I think we actually agree on this.

JRobin31Sep 18, 20161 votes

yeah, everyone has a differnt idea of what a "good state" is. Personally, I thought Garen was awesome up until they reworked him. RIP Garen.

NovaDiskSep 26, 20161 votes

These days, "Good state" for Garen means he's not one of the 10 worst champions. item 3070 Garen

sunhak1234Sep 18, 20163 votes

If they made his mechanic work like kindred's where it was selectable and had an overall timer and by champion timer...

VvVVvVSep 17, 20162 votes

Being that I play Garen i cant give my true thoughts on him......so all i will say is he needs major buffs. He is too slow, too weak. Silence doesnt last long enough. Diving someone and taking 3 seconds to kill them is too long.

OyddAWqJ5rSep 18, 20162 votes

He needs a simple base movement speed increase. The context for the nerf he received originally (too much MS) no longer makes sense with the current state of things (abundance of slows, removal of enchants, nerf to Swifties + repeated nerfs to Deadmans--one of his core items).

InsidiousSep 17, 20161 votes

Garen will return when ARURF come into the Rotating Queue. The moment you see an enemy Garen, stop him from getting enough gold for an IE or else it's too late. item 3031 Spin2**Win **

ChizzahSep 17, 20161 votes

I have an idea that can be a good buff for Garen. Kind of like a mini rework. Have Garen's Q interact with his other abilities similiar to how Ryze's E works.

So using Q normally will result in a 1 second silence (the silence duration does not increase by level). Using Q + W will make Garen immune to all kinds of CC for 1 second. Q + E will give his silence an AOE effect. Using Q + R will result in an one second AOE fear to everyone caught in the radius of the shockwave if the execute was succesful and a two second AOE fear if Garen succesfully executed the villian.

Now Garen has more soft CC, a defensive ability that can help him engage as well as hard CC in his ult. All his effects last only 1 second (max 2 seconds if he used his ult effectively). I also think that all his CDs are okay with the exception of his R. His R cooldown can be buffed or nerfed depending on how strong Riot feels this kit would be.

Now Garen can add value to a teamfight. Can still be low skill cap champ for new players as well as be a viable pick for the veterans. Now when he can be played sup as well without it being a troll pick. Maybe even jungle can be viable but thats not what I was going for.

I would also say lower the threshold for his ult to execute thus making it more difficult to use effectively to add more skill cap to the champ with this kit.

Edit: Also instead of fear have his ult mark everyone caught in the shockwave a villain for like 3-6 seconds depending on succesful execute on normal or villian and all Garen's allies share his ability to deal true damage in that time frame. (maybe lower duration or whatever but its another idea).

TyrekGoldenspearSep 18, 20162 votes

Oh lord... AOE Silence.

The inner justice in me is screaming yes.

The inner sense says no. That would be broken beyond repair.

ChizzahSep 18, 20161 votes

lol and when you silence them they cant chat or ping for 10 seconds hahaha

On a serious note Garen is a tank with a Juggernaut-like Ultimate in that it kills instead of CC and is single target. With this kit he can disrupt like a tank should and they can take away from his base damages or ratios to lower his damage if needed.

Golden Tager XSep 17, 20161 votes

Garen suffers from a bit too much power invested in the villain mechanic. Get rid of it and re-add the snare immunity on his e and give his w the percentage armor and mr increase too.

Critmaster GarenSep 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Garen suffers from a bit too much power invested in the villain mechanic. Get rid of it and re-add the snare immunity on his e and give his w the percentage armor and mr increase too.

i really hated that % increase. it forced him to build heavy armor/mr builds to get the same result out of it as farming the 30 stacks on minions. means if you want to rush straight ad or health, youre not getting anything out of it.

makes him more gold dependent, his viability even less stable depending on the state of items (armor nerfs like this preseason would mean bye bye garen for 10 month as theyd hit him twice), and is usually balanced around stacked case scenarios.

meaning it would be balaned around the possibility of stacking a full inventory of armor or mr items. which would make the w passive crap in most cases where he has to build mixed resistances.

which is exactly the state he was in, when the w passive had the % increase.

no, the stack mechanic he has now is much more preferable. i like the freedom in itemization is gives.

Golden Tager XSep 17, 20161 votes

You understand that you only need 103 armor or mr for this to be more useful than it is right now.

Critmaster GarenSep 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

You understand that you only need 103 armor or mr for this to be more useful than it is right now.

it was a 20% bonus armor/mr increase. means you needed 150 armor and 150 mr from items, runes and masteries to get the same out of it as 30 resistance stacks.

this is really hard to do in the first place, when you want to build items like item 3083 item 3053 item 3071 etc. you have to dedicate an item slot to something as big as a thornmail, banshees and another mr item to make that possible.

but the real issue comes into play, when its about early to midgame itemization. right now you get 30 stacks at about 20 to 25 minuts.

if you want to build straight ad, or straight health with the % increase, you get nothing out of it until later when you build some big resistance items.

like i said. i never liked the % increase mechanic, because it restricted your builds so much. since garens base health has been massively nerfed with the rework, and % bonus armor penetration from a item 3036 item 3033 is so high, those resistance builds would also be trash this season.

NovaDiskSep 26, 20161 votes

I've noticed that item 3033 item 3036 items are especially effective against Garen, since he has lower base armor to compensate for his W armor.

Also, speaking of base stats, I really miss the days when Garen had 2200 Base HP @18.

Tychusfindlay919Sep 26, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w82paml5,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-17T23:07:15.172+0000)

it was a 20% bonus armor/mr increase. means you needed 150 armor and 150 mr from items, runes and masteries to get the same out of it as 30 resistance stacks.

this is really hard to do in the first place, when you want to build items like etc. you have to dedicate an item slot to something as big as a thornmail, banshees and another mr item to make that possible.

but the real issue comes into play, when its about early to midgame itemization. right now you get 30 stacks at about 20 to 25 minuts.

if you want to build straight ad, or straight health with the % increase, you get nothing out of it until later when you build some big resistance items.

like i said. i never liked the % increase mechanic, because it restricted your builds so much. since garens base health has been massively nerfed with the rework, and % bonus armor penetration from a is so high, those resistance builds would also be trash this season.

It'd be nice if his W could give him base armor as opposed to bonus armor. Garen's base armor is actually kind of shit (around 20 armor lower than darius at level 18) and I feel like it's because his W was meant to make up for a lot of it.

As it is now, his W provides an awesome mr steroid since his base mr is like every other scaling mr champ's (And there's no difference between base and bonus mr) allowing garen to get as high as around 80 mr for his level 18 "base" mr without items. But against AD-centric teams, god this guy is fucking awful when it comes to juggernauts and tanking shit. And of course his overall damage is ass because riot input a villain system that's taking up too much of his fucking power budget.