This is why new Evelynn's stealth is a joke

Tormentula·Oct 29, 2017·23 votes·4,433 views

Evelynn: https://i.imgur.com/A9ZoEqx.jpg Twitch: https://i.imgur.com/K8zDHWP.png Evelynn: https://i.imgur.com/ueBmWwj.jpg Twitch: https://i.imgur.com/h52ytv3.jpg Evelynn: https://i.imgur.com/hOnuWpy.jpg https://i.imgur.com/eyKqHRd.jpg Twitch: https://i.imgur.com/hId7LGs.jpg https://i.imgur.com/CyjdG14.jpg

"but Eve is per-" Yea, Permastealth needs counterplay, but this is a bit much. Sure twitch needs this same level of counterplay, but on a champion like evelynn this is a bit much given how many conditions she's working with.

50 Comments

CatastrophicOct 29, 201721 votes

Twitch is not balanced, evelynn is.

TormentulaOct 29, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Twitch is not balanced

We all agree

Evelynn is

Evelynn is as weak as twitch is broken in terms of kit design.

2Charmnot2CharmOct 29, 20173 votes

evelynn is.

More like a joke. I was actually scared of pre rework evelynn in the hands of her 1 tricks.

Now after the rework? Not at all.

ArakadiaOct 29, 20172 votes

Because new Evelynn has not been entirely mastered yet.

ElikainOct 29, 20171 votes

I've dunked a fair share of people who said that. Even an overfed Trynda who was so sure he'd hit his ult before i did. E + R and a trip to the fountain made him reconsider that statement.

PokladnicaZlaOct 29, 20176 votes

Well,Evelynn has CC and an inbuild escapevin her kit. The range might need to be lowered,but they have to be careful about it.

YiffyOct 29, 201710 votes

An escape on over a 2-minute cooldown which is her ult. If she fails to get the kill, she's lost it.

And she has CC, yes, but what sort of champion with stealth tells their enemy their EXACT location 2.5 seconds before they pull off their CC that will most likely require a low-ranged skill shot to pull off? There's an arrow that points you to the Eve's exact location even if stealthed. That's silly.

PokladnicaZlaOct 29, 20173 votes

They changed it on the PBE,now if you kill with it 25% of it's CD is refunded and ˝Demon shade˝ activates.

It tells her then current location,she's still stealthed and has 2.5 seconds to proc her charm,if not,it's cooldown is lowered. To add,you can proc her charm just as it points to her location.

TormentulaOct 29, 20173 votes

Playing it, its honestly still not that big of a refund. It sounds holy shit on paper, but its just still shit in practice. The condition of actually getting somebody in the position+you in a good position for the charm is a lot more uncommon then actually having ultimate up.

PokladnicaZlaOct 30, 20171 votes

It's reduces the CD by over half a minute. That's a pretty good refund. The AoE of her R is impossible to miss,it's huge.I hit people who I thought wouldn't get hit. . .

UnboundHadesOct 29, 20174 votes

Yes because you playing her terribley means shes bad

TormentulaOct 29, 201715 votes

I'm having success with her, others are not and she's unarguably weak. There's a reason the evelynn main's reddit are going on a tantrum about the rework and why she feels way worse to play (and I can confidently say after 50 games on her, even the games I win feel very awful, and even if I'm fed, I can't say I wouldn't be more fed on something else, and I definitely can say I wouldn't fall off as hard as something else. )

Four GnarniaOct 29, 20172 votes

While I do believe Evelynn is in dire need of buffs and adjustments at the same time she has been released so close to the new runes system I think Riot is waiting to change anything major about her kit before they know how she'll perform with the new runes

Infinite SaughtOct 29, 20171 votes

This is sadly a commonality across all AP Assassins besides maybe Kassadin (or even Tankko); they all fall off pretty damn hard late game because their kill speeds are all in the shitter.

Sun Wu RyuumokuOct 29, 20172 votes

There's a reason the evelynn main's reddit are going on a tantrum about the rework

Its irrevelant

ElikainOct 29, 20172 votes

You're playing a jungle Assassin. No matter how good your ganks are early and how much of advantage you can get, if your team doesn't follow through and continues the pressure, the enemy team is going to make that difference up and you're not going to be strong enough to deal with 5 of them at once. Had a few games where i pull of pre-6 ganks a few times and i'm doing super well until my team doesn't start grouping like the enemy team does and the whole advantage i was working for disappears when the kills start getting back to the enemy team in a few fights.

It annoys me too but that's not Eve's fault. Assassins need to be even or ahead to work. Being an underfed Assassin feels like shit to play because you can't do anything on your own, you have to pray that you can get kills off some teamfights when someone's not looking.

Also, new runes are in the patch 7.22 (if i remember correctly) and that's where Eve's buffs are as well. Riot did buff her on PBE which made her better in my opinion and the new runes that i made were a good fit for her as well. She has a few more options with that system than she has here and that's the majority of the reason why people feel like she's underwhelming to play. But Riot's holding off from buffing her until that time comes.

TormentulaOct 29, 20173 votes

I haven't been liking her much on the PBE either (with the buffs and new runes, but I'm still experimenting with runes tbf).

Your point about assassins is accurate, but the thing about assassins is they can still be useful at all stages of the game. Take zed for example, he's good early due to working on an energy mechanic which allows poking and trading while farming, mid game he has a global presence with his roam potential, and late game he has a split push global presence + target elimation.

For a jungle assassin; Kha'zix is powerful early, able to dish out tons of damage alone and in ganks, while having a relatively good clear. His objective control due to isolation (with drag and baron) is amazing, and his resets enable him to make smart plays on going in, picking somebody, and getting out or going for something else. Additionally he can take towers relatively easy being an AD assassin.

A non-assassin, but rather diver such as Elise, is an AP early game monster with strong diving potential, one shot burst potential, tower sieging due to attack speed on W and spiderlings, a healthy clear, and if all else fails, she can build more off-tank with fitting in tank items over AP if she's not consistently doing the damage. This is the one to compare to Evelynn because while Eve is an assassin, you have to ask why play eve as an AP assassin when Elise is an AP assassin half the game, but more consistently, with non-ultimate wasteful escapes, a better transition into the late game, and a plan B option.

New Evelynn's lack of versatility with a highly predictable kit and no major global presence due to wave clear issues is her biggest flaws compared to other assassins. The mid game powerspike and unreliance early game (all game) just add to her champion design, which in its own is terrible.

Even in the sentiment that "assassins are weak because ADCs/Supports are strong", eve would still be the bottom of the barrel compared to everything else.

zaire90Oct 29, 20171 votes

Even in the sentiment that "assassins are weak because ADCs/Supports are strong", eve would still be the bottom of the barrel compared to everything else.

And tbh this statement makes no sense because arent assassins the natural counters too adcs/supports. So why is it considered ok when theyre getting by the people theyre supposed to counter. Every other champs gets way more important when the people theyre supposed to counter are the most picked.

Hong Kong AnnieOct 29, 20171 votes

The problem is that ADC defensive itemisation is so strong and with how many options supports have to keep people alive most assassins have a hard time finalizing the kills

RocketRelmOct 29, 20171 votes

Because adcs are literally mandatory in every game, so by that logic assassins would be way more important in literally every game.

~~What the problem specifically is here, is up for debate.~~

ElikainOct 29, 20171 votes

I value Eve more than i value Elise. This really isn't a competition for me. I've played against Elise and i did win against her in macro play but lost in micro play (tbf, i was still newer with Eve when i played that game). Eve is a lot more scarier than Elise in my opinion because she can stalk you. You are not forced to use her charm to have successful ganks but just putting it on a target makes the enemy instantly back off or face the consequences of getting CC'd and possibly killed in a gank.

Elise is more upfront in what she does as she normally engages you with her Cocoon, starts a combo, transforms and then uses her melee combo to drop you low enough for a kill (if she didn't kill you already). This to me is more reliable but it isn't a fast death. She takes her time with a kill while Eve, a true Assassin, does that much quicker and her ult allows her to back out of a fight after that. And with her buffs, her killing a target refunds 25% of her ult CD and she instantly enters Camouflage upon warping back (this also resets and empowers her E once again).

Eve's lane waveclear is lackluster but in my experience, i've identified that it's likely due to the nature of Runic Echo's, which is a poorer version of Luden's Echo tacked on a jungle item to "help" AP junglers do some AoE. Consider that Rengar and Kha can buy a Duskblade (AD Assassin version of Luden's) and get a raw AD Warrior enchantment whereas AP Assassins can't opt into Luden's at all. Swapping Runic for Luden's helped me out a bit, to a point where my waveclear was decent-ish (previously weak) with Lich Bane as well.

I've done some testing with lane Evelynn as well (Marksman replacement) and i've done quite well for myself. Her Q requires micromanaging as you can run out of mana pretty fast and you only need to survive a lane, not necessarily win it. Ganking for such a lane is easy due to Eve's CC. Barrier is the preferred option for me as you'd need to be in the melee range to eat damage if you want to dish it out and your ult also allows you to get out of a fight. After level 6, you're the boss at bot and you decide from when and where you're attacking or even if you're ganking another lane.

Eve doesn't have a plan B option simply because no assassin has. You're only job is to kill people. Kill priority targets. Kill as many as you can or drop them low enough to be out of the fight for a time. If you're not fulfilling this function, there's little value in having you in a team. Assassins historically could also splitpush to a degree but Eve is just harder to deal with, considering she struggles with waves and can't push towers quite as fast as their AD counterparts.

I agree that Eve is a bit weaker. But i don't think it's come to a point where she's just a bad pick.

Teridax68Oct 29, 20174 votes

Tbh, the essential counterplay to literally any kind of invisibility is that your champion shouldn't be able to deal significant upfront burst at the same time. This is something Riot has done with Evelynn (most of her kit is really back-loaded), but for some reason she still has her detection radius on top of that. The entire point to stealth, especially permastealth, is that you get to initiate from the position you want, when you want, so it really shouldn't be a matter of spotting Eve while she moves in just to be able to attack. Conversely, Rengar and Twitch, but especially Twitch, still have front-loaded burst on top of their stealth, and the fact that Twitch gets both the shortest detection range in addition to the longest effective range of the three Camouflage champions really doesn't feel fair (he doesn't really get detected unless he messes up and gets far too close to an enemy). This is why I dislike Camouflage as a mechanic separate from invisibility, as its detection radius doesn't really improve upon the champion's gameplay in any real way.

I think in the future, it might be better to ditch Camouflage entirely, replace it with invisibility, and instead work on making sure these champions give their victims time to react when they initiate. This is the perfect opportunity to look into healthier ways of delaying an assassin's burst and making it feel more natural than, say, LeBlanc's innate, and in the case of champions like Rengar and Twitch, it could also be a good opportunity to reevaluate how to budget the counterplay of a stealth champion: imo, a detection radius defeats the entire point of invisibility, whose goal is to give a champion a reliable means of entering combat. We need to accept that champions with invisibility have a guaranteed way of initiating duels, and instead we need to make sure that the duels themselves are as interactive as they can be, namely by giving the victim adequate time to try to fight back or escape. This shouldn't be a big problem for Eve, though Rengar and Twitch could use a lot more work in this respect.

ElikainOct 29, 20171 votes

The entire point to stealth, especially permastealth, is that you get to initiate from the position you want, when you want, so it really shouldn't be a matter of spotting Eve while she moves in just to be able to attack. Conversely, Rengar and Twitch, but especially Twitch, still have front-loaded burst on top of their stealth

That's not really an issue with Eve. You said it yourself that Riot designed her well but you dislike the stealth detection range. Permastealth is not an excuse for an assassin to have no counterplay, if they can literally be inside you before you get your head cut off. We had this issue with Twitch and Eve way back in the day of stacking 6 Sunfires and just killing people with ambient damage.

If you're comparing stealth mechanics across the champions, you have to also compare their strengths and weaknesses. What's the point in a comparison if you say "this X champ is allowed to do this with their stealth but my Y champion isn't"? If the champions don't even play the same (and aren't even the same class), there's a reason why their stealth mechanics are different. You need proper criteria to judge them on so you ask yourself some questions:

What's their gameplay like? How do they go about engaging their targets? What's their damage profile and possible item builds? What are their highpoints of combos and how reliable are they? Are there any special requirements to their stealth mechanics? What are their general strengths and weaknesses in terms of gameplay? Level of satisfaction when playing as and against the champion?

If you have these questions answered, you're on the right track in finding out where things may be out of line. If we're talking about Rengar's and Twitch's reliability and Eve is less so, the issue is likely them being slightly stronger or Eve being slightly weaker. Whether this means changing her ranges or giving her more damage (or nerfing the appropriate champions that share her assassin space) is the next step in figuring it out.

Teridax68Oct 29, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That's not really an issue with Eve. You said it yourself that Riot designed her well but you dislike the stealth detection range. Permastealth is not an excuse for an assassin to have no counterplay, if they can literally be inside you before you get your head cut off.

Had you read what I had actually posted, though, the entire point to my argument is that invisibility is designed to reduce counterplay, specifically when initiating combat. However, there is much more counterplay to a champion beyond just their ability to initiate combat, which is why I repeatedly insisted that stealth champions be given even more counterplay while in the middle of combat. Evelynn is more or less fine with this, so I don't think we're disagreeing on her, but Rengar and Twitch are still notoriously unpleasant to fight against when they get to deal damage. In both their cases, they could benefit from more spaced-out damage so that their opponent can have a chance to react to them.

{quoted}

We had this issue with Twitch and Eve way back in the day of stacking 6 Sunfires and just killing people with ambient damage.

And clearly, the ability to stack 6 Sunfires in the first place wasn't the problem at all. That's why we still get to do it, right?

{quoted}

If you're comparing stealth mechanics across the champions, you have to also compare their strengths and weaknesses.

In which respect? "You have to look at X's strengths and weaknesses" is a very nice-sounding generic design expression, but it is completely meaningless if you don't explain why it makes for significant differences in how those champions use the specified mechanic. This is one of the cases where the particular differences of those champions do not affect how they should play with their stealth, imo, because in all cases their invisibility is a tool they use to initiate combat, and operates by denying the enemy vision of them, at least until a certain range. Obviously, they shouldn't all be turned into the same champion, but the way their counterplay is allotted across their kit all needs to take their stealth into account, is my point.

MorendabanusOct 29, 20173 votes

Rengar's ult is the same way, except it doesnt last as long as twitch Q. Gives him the same movespeed as twitch Q. Has a way longer cooldown. Doesn't reset on kills and assists.

Twitch's detection range is just a massive example of ADC bias that riot has.

FairyfleurOct 29, 20171 votes

Comparing ults and basic abilities to eachother isn't really fair without including how the rest of that champion's skills add up.

MorendabanusOct 29, 20172 votes

Twitch's ult lets him apply autoattack damage to multiple enemies in a line, his builds let his auto's deal tons of damage.

He gets an ult which is incredibly powerful, and his Q is irrefutably stronger than Rengar's.

Rengar gets a guaranteed crit to balance it out ?XD? Twitch crits anyway.

Rengar ult warns enemies like 4k units away

Rengar cannot perform any actions during the stealth channel or the ult is just cancelled instantly. Twitch can still autoattack and use spells while his stealth is channeling.

FairyfleurOct 29, 20171 votes

Ok, but a champion's ult is sometimes stronger or weaker because of X champion's power budget. Aurelion Sol for example has very strong basic abilities but a rather lackluster ult; just because a champion's basic ability is "better" than another champions ult that doesn't mean that champion is overpowered. Although, Twitch is pretty overpowered right now. It's just a mix of where a champion's power lies in their abilities, not all ults are supposed to be the same strength.

MorendabanusOct 29, 20171 votes

Please tell me, what part of Rengar's kit takes up so much power budget that his ultimate is a literal steaming pile of shit. It even punishes you for levelling it, by making the range at which it tells enemies you're coming larger and larger.

FairyfleurOct 29, 20171 votes

All of his basic abilities are fairly useful, or at least in concept, while twitch's power is distributed between his Q and his ult.

MorendabanusOct 29, 20171 votes

Twitch's W is a decent slow, that applies stacks of true damage dot which go towards his E damage.

Meanwhile Rengar's W is a heal that's only useful if you have taken damage in the last 1.5 seconds, only heals you for half of that damage, against gradual poke it's useless. It can be a cleanse, but to get there you 100% have to waste the 1st W on nothing to get to the full ferocity before the cc hits.

Rengar's unempowered Q does around 25 damage total at level 1. ?XD? Sure empowered is strong, but that's only about 1/3 of your Q casts.

HaIlMonitorOct 29, 20171 votes

To be fair it is eves stealth is a second passive. So really twitch and Eve shouldn't even be compared because one is a skill, the other just happens.

HaIlMonitorOct 29, 20173 votes

I still don't get why they haven't in a sense copied blizzards stealth with cloaking. Blizzard has perma stealth champs, but you can see them move nearby.

Sun Wu RyuumokuOct 29, 20172 votes

Pitiful argument... comparing Eve to Twich... do u imply Twitch is balanced ?!! Her stealth isn't her issue.

TormentulaOct 29, 20172 votes

Twitch isn't balance. Evelynn isn't strong.

The joke of it all, is Eve has all this counterplay she doesn't need, but twitch hardly has any (if none).

Eve:

Melee so already there's the concept you'll see her coming for you.
Massive detection to make ^ even more obvious
A charm marker that shows up, implying "eve is gunna try to do something in 2.5 seconds"
A direction pointer as to where evelynn is charming from so you know not to walk into her/prep a direction to dodge her Q.
The lack of gapcloser to make her stealth+charm more unreliable.
Stealth isn't even available until 6

Twitch:

??? Its not perma even though he gets it level 3 the latest and it last quite a while, with the compensation of an Attack Speed Steroid.

Evelynn's issue is her stealth is balanced around her charm, and her charm is balanced around her stealth, and both are shit because of this without her other abilities having the power to make up for those two flaws (Q sucks in wave clear, E doesn't gap closer or, like old eve, give attack speed for tower killing, R is a double edged sword, its good but it can also screw you out of a double kill or even your target). The design itself should've picked one or the other, or alternatively put enough power in the other abilities to make up for the rest of the kit's problems like the wave clear or gapcloser.

Twitch's stealth isn't balanced around his range Twitch's range isn't balanced around his stealth Twitch doesn't show a marker 2 seconds in advance before he ults the lane.

NorthernRedStarOct 29, 20172 votes

I think Eve's stealth range combined with her kit is an excellent example of a stealth-assassin with well-designed space for counterplay.

Just raise her E range to 300 and it might just be enough.

BakedLotionOct 29, 20175 votes

her damage is too low

ElikainOct 29, 20171 votes

I play her regularly and i don't have an issue with her stealth detection range being too long. This point needs to stop being brought up because Twitch has no CC in his kit while Eve has. Making this part of her kit reliable would make her ganks terrifying because the whole point to her using the CC is to use her Q on a range and then have a sufficient window to walk to a target firing her Q at them and then E-ing to the face and ult, if the it's in the kill range.

You can even use her Flash + E for a more quicker and reliable gap closer to CC the target and most likely, kill it yourself or with the help of your teammates. Eve is all about surprising the enemy from different angles. If you're making yourself super obvious or you're afraid of taking a risk for that reward, Eve is not a champion for you.

Twitch isn't really that problematic with his stealth and he becomes problem from his item power spikes. He does that too hard, with stealth in hand. This means Twitch's strength is the issue at which point stealth on his kit makes him way better at surprise engages instead of Eve being too constrained or, god forbid "weak". She most definitely isn't weak but she is still buffed on PBE in terms of her ult reliability and a damage adjust on her E (looks like a buff to me).

ninjaroxasOct 29, 20175 votes

What needs to stop being brought up is her hard cc since it gives the enemy a 2.5 second warning and tells them where you are and you have to damge them to proc it. That so makes up for her detection radius being so large

ElikainOct 29, 20171 votes

Her CC only points to your direction once it is ready to charm, not when you toss it on someone from 3000 range. It doesn't even reveal you, it just points in a direction. And if you don't know how and when to use it or flank an enemy to make them back off towards you, that's really something you need to figure out.

Maybe Eve isn't a champion for you.

TormentulaOct 29, 20171 votes

If a rework is telling its previous mains "Maybe its not a champion for you" then that's a failure in loyality to what old players enjoyed about the champion in the first place.

ElikainOct 29, 20171 votes

It really isn't since every core part of Eve was kept and what didn't work was replaced. Riot never said they're going to make the same champ but just with updated visuals and gameplay. This was never the deal between us and them.

I was Eve's OTP back in the day when Magus enchantment was there and now i've came back to her full-heartedly. She's every bit i imagined her to be and more. So we have here a difference in opinions. I don't mind her changes and am fully committed to testing them out before i start raising my voice at Riot.

Is she constrained with a few mechanics to make sure she isn't out of line with her permastealth? Yes, she is. Considering how notorious she was and how much she was nerfed and stripped of her powers multiple times due to the sheer strength of Permastealth, it was justified but her old kit just couldn't take the gutting and her entire playstyle has changed over the years. I think Riot was right to be cautious with her new form as they've kept PS as a center-point of her thematic and after the new runes, they can add some power back in her kit if they feel she's too weak.

New runes are the key point here. There's a lot of power, utility and stats in there and i even made lane Eve work with them (which is something i can't make work now). I wouldn't start clamoring for her buffs now because i'll get to play her in a new light in a week or so anyway.

ninjaroxasOct 30, 20171 votes

Unless the enemy team knows what eve's passive is. No one but bronze five assumes eve is always comeing from the front. Also what i meant is that it tells you eve is ganking you before you even see her. I liked eve before her rework and i still do now. But the matter of the fact is that riot is made her way weaker then needed Because they were scared of her perma stealth

LevuOct 29, 20171 votes

It's adorable how naive and oblivious most of the replies are to this thread.

"Increase her E range"

Please tell me, why exactly does eve want to hop to her target? She doesn't deal AA damage worth being that close to her target and all it does is put her in a poor spot.

Shes so poorly designed it's not even funny, It would be real nice if people stopped being stupid and just realized that all the people (Including Challenger+plenty of renowned youtubers at this point) aren't just "baddies who need to git gud and learn the champ"

People know what the fucking deal is man they aren't stupid. People READ THE GALIO CHANGES and knew he was broken the literal moment the update was posted.

Nobody even had to play him to find out his Q buffs could instagib people, because they are familiar with the game and how it works.

You don't even need to play Evelynn to know her kit is non functional and trash, even compared to her old kit.

The fine text isn't even worth reading because shes such and overtuned mess.

They just need to put her back on some kinda gameplay rework roster and leave her how she is for a while.

Making little changes is an utter waste of time.

The W needs to just be completely pulled from the champ

The Bad TouchOct 29, 20171 votes

I've yet to have any issue with stomping Eve's. Don't buff her she's frelo. :P

Eve hasn't been solo queue viable since you could build 6 sunfire and stunned out of stealth. So nothing really changes here. Eve is only used in pro play because of how strong her vision game is. No other reason.

Outside of vision there is zero reason you'd ever pick Eve over powerhouses like Sej, Cho, Gragas, ect. Hell late game Cho has 6-8k hp and still does more burst than Eve.

Also I'd much rather have an Elise. Spiderlings ability to block skill shots is highly underrated. Eve get's completely derped on by people like EZ, and Elise counters EZ easily.

ArakadiaOct 29, 20171 votes

When you zoom in on Evelynn's stealth picture its going to look way bigger then it actually is...

Also Evelynn's not supposed to nor is she limited to engaging with her E.

TormentulaOct 29, 20171 votes

And still, no matter how zoomed, lane width - radius ratio doesn't change.

ArakadiaOct 29, 20171 votes

Your still changing our perception of the picture for your argument. The ratio doesn't change but what people think at first does.

PaffWasTakenOct 29, 20171 votes

Twitch's stealth is meant to be an ambush/flank option designed for a marksman who is weak without the element of surprise (even though he isnt anymore...) Eve's stealth is designed to make her a roamer who has powerfull, unpredictable and fast ganks, in which she fails miserably since the enemy sees her coming miles afar