I just realized that bruisers arent a class and cant be balanced as if they are.

WardBaronFFS·Jan 15, 2018·4 votes·704 views

Yes bruiser builds work but no champion is by definition a bruiser! Darius is a juggernaut, Riven is currently an assassin(lethality riven folks), Kled is a fighter (built like a bruiser), Elise is a assassin, Yorick is a juggernaut, Aatrox is a fighter, Nasus is a tank/ juggernaut, Fiora is a fighter, Udyr is a tank, Renekton is an assassin or tank(havent seen an actual bruiser built renekton in forever), Pantheon is an assassin, Vi assassin possibly tank never bruiser, Jarvan is assassin or tank never built inbetween (or from what Ive seen), Olaf is a juggernaut, I would say their is around 5 actual bruisers that are also built like it Xin Zhao, Garen, Skarner, Jax.......Sometimes shyvana but shes a jungler Udyr is also considered a bruiser but I really only seen either attack speed udyrs or full tank. Lee sin can also be considered a true bruiser, but is built with a lot of damage or straight tank now a days so not really.

13 Comments

chipndip1Jan 15, 201810 votes

"Bruiser" is just an alternative word for "fighter". Fighters in this game are divers and jugs. That's it.

WardBaronFFSJan 15, 20182 votes

So wait I play a lot of fighters and juggernauts they arent really that bad maybe a little bit hard to scale with for not a lot of end game scaling.

kaironenJan 15, 20181 votes

I think bruisers aren't bad right now. People just assume they are bad because of how adcs are strong and bruisers can't solo carry as hard as they used to. Of course, I'm making a lot of assumptions and I can't prove it with facts. However, I do know that in general, bruisers, or fighters, currently have a higher win ratio than top lane tanks. I'm going to go on a little bit of a rant about the whole situation of boards saying bruisers are weak so just bare with me.

The top 2 top laners in win ratio are tanks. I'm going to remove a lot of the top win ratios since there are some with like 0.60 pick ratio which is too low of a sample size to input them as a top top laner.

Vladimir, singed, teemo, and heimerdinger are in the top 7 and they aren't bruisers but Vladimir and teemo are op. I don't know about heimerdinger right now and singed seems fine. He might be above average but I don't think he is op.

Illaoi and fiora have about 51.27% win ratio with a 8.5% pick ratio approximately. This is a great sample size and it shows that illaoi is currently pretty strong and fiora is apparently strong. I honestly thought fiora had a 48% win ratio so I'm a little confused on how it's 51.26% right now. Then, you get malphite and sion at 51.20% win ratio with a 4.2% pick ratio. So fiora, a higher skill cap champion (I believe), has a higher win rate and pick ratio than 2 full tanks. Both of those tanks abuse comet so they are pretty strong right now, but this says a lot of placement of bruisers. The next highest win ratio tank has a 49.79% win ratio and 5.53% pick ratio, which is shen. My point isn't to point fingers at which champion is op, but to say that bruisers, which is honestly a huge class of champions, are relatively good to tanks. Kleptomancy could be a reason but you have to look at the statistics of the bruiser class compared to other champions to really say if they are good or not without removing the possibility of them being a high skill cap champion. Just going to say, the statistics will vary from site to site so only looking at 1 site to see if it is op or weak will make the answer weaker.

I am PacmanJan 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I think bruisers aren't bad right now. People just assume they are bad because of how adcs are strong and bruisers can't solo carry as hard as they used to. Of course, I'm making a lot of assumptions and I can't prove it with facts. However, I do know that in general, bruisers, or fighters, currently have a higher win ratio than top lane tanks. I'm going to go on a little bit of a rant about the whole situation of boards saying bruisers are weak so just bare with me.

The top 2 top laners in win ratio are tanks. I'm going to remove a lot of the top win ratios since there are some with like 0.60 pick ratio which is too low of a sample size to input them as a top top laner.

Vladimir, singed, teemo, and heimerdinger are in the top 7 and they aren't bruisers but Vladimir and teemo are op. I don't know about heimerdinger right now and singed seems fine. He might be above average but I don't think he is op.

Illaoi and fiora have about 51.27% win ratio with a 8.5% pick ratio approximately. This is a great sample size and it shows that illaoi is currently pretty strong and fiora is apparently strong. I honestly thought fiora had a 48% win ratio so I'm a little confused on how it's 51.26% right now. Then, you get malphite and sion at 51.20% win ratio with a 4.2% pick ratio. So fiora, a higher skill cap champion (I believe), has a higher win rate and pick ratio than 2 full tanks. Both of those tanks abuse comet so they are pretty strong right now, but this says a lot of placement of bruisers. The next highest win ratio tank has a 49.79% win ratio and 5.53% pick ratio, which is shen. My point isn't to point fingers at which champion is op, but to say that bruisers, which is honestly a huge class of champions, are relatively good to tanks. Kleptomancy could be a reason but you have to look at the statistics of the bruiser class compared to other champions to really say if they are good or not without removing the possibility of them being a high skill cap champion. Just going to say, the statistics will vary from site to site so only looking at 1 site to see if it is op or weak will make the answer weaker.

Maybe you should try playing them lol. They aren't unplayable but they sure as hell aren't easier to carry with than just playing shen/malph/maokai/ornn/sion etc.

Illaoi is currently strong because of 2 very specific reasons. 1. Klepto exists(also free boots, everyone always overlooks this but its a free 300 gold), this allows her to get her core items much faster especially when paired with 2. She counters pretty much every other meta top laner. Tanks are great top lane and she hard counters them. She also hard counters most other bruisers so that clears that class out. Her biggest weakness ranged champions (teemo, jayce) recently got nerfs on top of the fact that they counter her less because she gets gold/items from klepto/inspiration. (the sustain from klepto/biscuts is also immense and often overlooked)

Fiora is pretty much the same reason. Her %true damage counters tanks (the actual meta) and with klepto/inspiration she gets more gold and thus her items sooner.

The rest of the bruisers are not doing anywhere near as well as the 2 specifically designed to counter what riot wants as meta top lane (tanks).

kaironenJan 15, 20181 votes

The actual meta is filled with kleptomancy users right now so I wouldn't say the meta is truly tanks. I know that ornn is currently the top tier champ but the current meta at top lane is comet and kleptomancy. Everything else, except a few exceptions, aren't doing as well. Malphite is only really good right now because of how comet is really good with his q (and it's op). Sion is the same reason. I honestly don't know much about shen but all I know is that he is weak vs range top laners and maybe juggernauts. However, I only really play poppy currently and she does decently vs him so I can't really input much. For some reason I haven't seen maokai in a long time. However, if he's too strong it's because of his kit. He honestly needs another rework due to how reliable he is.

A bruiser that is currently one of the best to play at top lane I believe is camile. The champion is probably not directly op, but its comet. Honestly, I don't think saying this is a tank meta or bruiser meta or w/e you think this meta is, is the best way to put it atm. I think this is more of a who abuses comet/klepto in lane. If you abuse one of those 2, you are probably a good top laner. Ofc, some exceptions being teemo, ornn, and probably shen. Riven and yasuo is currently doing decent I think too. I think that tanks are easier to play than bruisers so they will usually have higher consistency in how well they are preforming. I personally don't play fiora/riven, etc. because I don't know how to play them well. They don't really fit my style since I like to make good tp flanks. I'm also better at playing around awareness in a teamfight since I know exactly who to go on in certain teamfights. I believe that bruisers are more single minded in who to go on, which is usually the carry. Of course, split pushers mainly try to split push, but I was never a fan of winning through that way. Even if I'm not that good currently at those types of champions, I do think that they aren't as bad as people on the boards make it look like they are (I personally think bruisers aren't weak but that's just an opinion).

I am PacmanJan 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The actual meta is filled with kleptomancy users right now so I wouldn't say the meta is truly tanks. I know that ornn is currently the top tier champ but the current meta at top lane is comet and kleptomancy. Everything else, except a few exceptions, aren't doing as well. Malphite is only really good right now because of how comet is really good with his q (and it's op). Sion is the same reason. I honestly don't know much about shen but all I know is that he is weak vs range top laners and maybe juggernauts. However, I only really play poppy currently and she does decently vs him so I can't really input much. For some reason I haven't seen maokai in a long time. However, if he's too strong it's because of his kit. He honestly needs another rework due to how reliable he is.

A bruiser that is currently one of the best to play at top lane I believe is camile. The champion is probably not directly op, but its comet. Honestly, I don't think saying this is a tank meta or bruiser meta or w/e you think this meta is, is the best way to put it atm. I think this is more of a who abuses comet/klepto in lane. If you abuse one of those 2, you are probably a good top laner. Ofc, some exceptions being teemo, ornn, and probably shen. Riven and yasuo is currently doing decent I think too. I think that tanks are easier to play than bruisers so they will usually have higher consistency in how well they are preforming. I personally don't play fiora/riven, etc. because I don't know how to play them well. They don't really fit my style since I like to make good tp flanks. I'm also better at playing around awareness in a teamfight since I know exactly who to go on in certain teamfights. I believe that bruisers are more single minded in who to go on, which is usually the carry. Of course, split pushers mainly try to split push, but I was never a fan of winning through that way. Even if I'm not that good currently at those types of champions, I do think that they aren't as bad as people on the boards make it look like they are (I personally think bruisers aren't weak but that's just an opinion).

Except who is viable also extents past the laning phase. Bruisers like camile, jax, irelia, renekton even if they are meta (which they aren't, except for comet abuse camile) they still have to deal with the rest of the team. They either have to kill the enemy adc which is hard as balls right now due to the slow increase in support items and adc damage (who btw get their core items before bruisers since they are so much cheaper) or they have to protect their own adc which they might as well just play a tank instead since they would also get an easier laning phase.

Riven and yasuo are certainly not doing well top lane. Yasuo gets shat on by just about every matchup and riven can't kill the tanks, gets harrased by ranged champions and is about an even matchup with a lot of bruisers.

Yeah maos kit is stupid. They really only had to change one thing about his kit during the rework (his w targeted root which sets up into q which sets up into e and walk away) to make him a much better champion but instead they just added more cc to his combo chain.

If the majority of the currently viable laners are tanks, then its a tank meta. Shen (who btw counters a lot of bruisers due to his w, %hp q and greater map presence), Ornn, Mao, Sion, Malphite vs illaoi/fiora (who are strong because of the meta) teemo (ranged, abuses aery/also abuses tanks in lane), and who else? The meta is Tanks and their specific counters.

Tanks are easier to play, but the problem is that they also offer more to a team while also getting an easier laning phase. (Tanks being forced top also opens up way more options for your team since you don't need to take a tank support or tank jungler).

Tychusfindlay918Jan 15, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Pacman,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vOFdVMHX,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-15T06:44:13.589+0000)

Maybe you should try playing them lol. They aren't unplayable but they sure as hell aren't easier to carry with than just playing shen/malph/maokai/ornn/sion etc.

Illaoi is currently strong because of 2 very specific reasons. 1. Klepto exists(also free boots, everyone always overlooks this but its a free 300 gold), this allows her to get her core items much faster especially when paired with 2. She counters pretty much every other meta top laner. Tanks are great top lane and she hard counters them. She also hard counters most other bruisers so that clears that class out. Her biggest weakness ranged champions (teemo, jayce) recently got nerfs on top of the fact that they counter her less because she gets gold/items from klepto/inspiration. (the sustain from klepto/biscuts is also immense and often overlooked)

Fiora is pretty much the same reason. Her %true damage counters tanks (the actual meta) and with klepto/inspiration she gets more gold and thus her items sooner.

The rest of the bruisers are not doing anywhere near as well as the 2 specifically designed to counter what riot wants as meta top lane (tanks).

Error in thesis part 2 (your final sentence I determined), darius counters tanks arguably harder than illaoi in some cases, and doesn't have to deal with a very weak pre 6, but he's struggling fairly hard.

It's less about who can counter tanks and more about who can abuse klepto mechanics and at least deal decently against tanks

I am PacmanJan 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Error in thesis part 2 (your final sentence I determined), darius counters tanks arguably harder than illaoi in some cases, and doesn't have to deal with a very weak pre 6, but he's struggling fairly hard.

It's less about who can counter tanks and more about who can abuse klepto mechanics and at least deal decently against tanks

First off darius may be on par with illaoi in the counter department (I'd argue not but he is close). Darius can't abuse klepto so he misses out on the extra gold/lane pressure from items. And while they are both at risk of being kited, Darius is certainly more prone to it and has less range to deal with it.

That is why he is struggling as opposed to illaoi/fiora. He can win the lane against tanks but gains no where near the lead illaoi/fiora can with klepto on top of being easily dealt with by anyone who can just stay out of his comparatively small range.

You make a point saying darius counters tanks but is struggling and then instantly answer your own question by making it clear klepto is being abused. Yes. I agree. Its a combination of all those factors that work out just right in illaoi/fiora's favor that leads to these higher pick rates and general success.

Side Note: Illaoi also has counterintuitive counterplay. Most people especially in lower elos will just try and hard engage every time vs her especially when they got a gank. This is the exact opposite of what you are supposed to do and its easy to see why she just curbstomps low elo regardless of the meta.

MordepoolJan 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I think bruisers aren't bad right now. People just assume they are bad because of how adcs are strong and bruisers can't solo carry as hard as they used to. Of course, I'm making a lot of assumptions and I can't prove it with facts. However, I do know that in general, bruisers, or fighters, currently have a higher win ratio than top lane tanks. I'm going to go on a little bit of a rant about the whole situation of boards saying bruisers are weak so just bare with me.

The top 2 top laners in win ratio are tanks. I'm going to remove a lot of the top win ratios since there are some with like 0.60 pick ratio which is too low of a sample size to input them as a top top laner.

Vladimir, singed, teemo, and heimerdinger are in the top 7 and they aren't bruisers but Vladimir and teemo are op. I don't know about heimerdinger right now and singed seems fine. He might be above average but I don't think he is op.

Illaoi and fiora have about 51.27% win ratio with a 8.5% pick ratio approximately. This is a great sample size and it shows that illaoi is currently pretty strong and fiora is apparently strong. I honestly thought fiora had a 48% win ratio so I'm a little confused on how it's 51.26% right now. Then, you get malphite and sion at 51.20% win ratio with a 4.2% pick ratio. So fiora, a higher skill cap champion (I believe), has a higher win rate and pick ratio than 2 full tanks. Both of those tanks abuse comet so they are pretty strong right now, but this says a lot of placement of bruisers. The next highest win ratio tank has a 49.79% win ratio and 5.53% pick ratio, which is shen. My point isn't to point fingers at which champion is op, but to say that bruisers, which is honestly a huge class of champions, are relatively good to tanks. Kleptomancy could be a reason but you have to look at the statistics of the bruiser class compared to other champions to really say if they are good or not without removing the possibility of them being a high skill cap champion. Just going to say, the statistics will vary from site to site so only looking at 1 site to see if it is op or weak will make the answer weaker.

Looking solely at Toplane winrate to prove your point doesn't really work since most games you can get shit on as a bruiser player but just have your bottom lane carry your ass to victory. Winrate means alot less when you contribute the least to the outcome of a game. All that aside Fighters feel like shit to play since even when ahead 10/0 by 10 minutes you still have the least impact on the game. Now do you see the problem win or lose feels like you might as well be playing Solitaire

kaironenJan 15, 20181 votes

You aren't wrong when you say win rates don't mean everything since you can get carried, but it does give you a good idea. Tanks can also get shit on and can get behind vs other top laners. And although it does mean less due to how much they can do in a game, it still is good data to look at when determining what is strong and what is weak. Usually they don't lose as hard due to their build but they still can go behind in lane. Usually, when looking at them I try to see if they are high skill caps or not since that helps to determine how good they are.

When I'm 10/0 as poppy top I generally always solo carry my team. Even though she is a tank (although a little weak, probably) being 10/0 and not carrying that much is a bit of an exaggeration.

Well, I think I'm done with this discussion for this thread since it is getting pretty far from what the main idea of the thread was about and I don't want to stray too far off.

MordepoolJan 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You aren't wrong when you say win rates don't mean everything since you can get carried, but it does give you a good idea. Tanks can also get shit on and can get behind vs other top laners. And although it does mean less due to how much they can do in a game, it still is good data to look at when determining what is strong and what is weak. Usually they don't lose as hard due to their build but they still can go behind in lane. Usually, when looking at them I try to see if they are high skill caps or not since that helps to determine how good they are.

When I'm 10/0 as poppy top I generally always solo carry my team. Even though she is a tank (although a little weak, probably) being 10/0 and not carrying that much is a bit of an exaggeration.

Well, I think I'm done with this discussion for this thread since it is getting pretty far from what the main idea of the thread was about and I don't want to stray too far off.

Fair enough

PaffWasTakenJan 15, 20181 votes

Bruiser isn't that much of a class, its more of a build pattern

Wînter FoxJan 15, 20181 votes

If Riven is an Assassin then so are Jax Fiora Irelia who have mobility, deal high sustained damage with abilities and autos weaved together, and situational defense.