"CC is equally effective against every champion"

Mecha MaIphite·Oct 11, 2015·35 votes·3,335 views

Just a reminder that that's a really bad argument.

Nobody has ever said "Just CC Malphite", because Malpite doesn't care about your CC. It only annoys him a little, and makes him wait another two seconds to be useful again.

These guys, on the other hand, will be stopped by CC, because the window in which they can't move is enough to either chunk them or just blow them up completely. Whereas it does not work with tanks, because they can survive for much, much longer than squishies, even against people like Vayne or Kog.

EDIT: No, I'm not saying all tanks have an Olaf ult 24/7. They are affected by CC, but it doesn't hurt them as much as it hurts squishies.

76 Comments

RenailleOct 11, 201519 votes

And ranged champions don't care about snares while they're basically longer duration stuns for melee champs.

YumaS2AstralOct 11, 20157 votes

{quoted}

And ranged champions don't care about snares while they're basically longer duration stuns for melee champs.

Actually, ranged champions DO care about snares.

For example if Vayne is snared during a battle she can't reposition herself and will die easily

That's why Ryze was a hard counter to her before the rework. Not only she couldn't dodge any of his spells (for obvious reasons) but also he could shut her down during teamfights with the snare.

Hayaishi2Oct 11, 20159 votes

If that was the case peeling wouldn't exist

JustMyBassCannonOct 11, 20155 votes

There's a difference between saying "CC has no effect on tanky champions," and "CC is less effective on tanky champions."

This thread is the latter argument, not the former.

LaceUp23Oct 11, 20156 votes

Actually CC stops those champs from doing their job as well. Sure, a CC'd Kat will get blown up whereas a CC'd Rammus won't, but that isn't the only thing to consider. I've won MANY teamfights by Fiddle's fearing a Rammus that was barreling towards our ADC, allowing them to stay alive and win us the fight.

Considering the game is based on peeling the champs that you think "aren't effected by cc" off your carries WITH CC, I would say it does actually highly effect them.

Mecha MaIphiteOct 11, 20154 votes

Tanks aren't immune to CC, of course, they just aren't as vulnerable to it as squishies are.

LaceUp23Oct 11, 20152 votes

Rammus job is to run in and taunt the carries. If cc makes it so he can't do that, and loses the teamfight since he can't do anything else, he is extremely vulnerable to it.

JustMyBassCannonOct 11, 20154 votes

Rammus just took the hard CC, instead of his squishies or the follow-up initiator. Oh, look, Rammus is still doing his job. And less than two seconds later, while his follow-up is keeping them busy, Rammus gets to go and CC the carry because he walks through the fight without giving a damn.

DrNovaOct 11, 20155 votes

"I make up pretend quotes"

Mecha MaIphiteOct 11, 201516 votes

I've seen this argument used so many times. I can probably pull up an example or two right now.

BhagswagOct 12, 20151 votes

Just to prove DrNova more wrong, you should really pull up a few quoted examples.

EDIT: Found them; look below, Nova. :D

EndlessSorcererOct 11, 201510 votes

I have seen that quote verbatim or paraphrased many, many times over the years.

Typically when people are complaining about the balance of Katarina, Riven, and Master Yi balance.

Captain AishiOct 11, 20155 votes

CC is equally effective against every champion

Irelia lol

TotalJerkOct 12, 20151 votes

The main reason I hate that she even has that passive is that Riot doesn't like to give two champions identical abilities and that would've been much fairer on a pre-5.16 juggernaut than someone like Irelia who practically has all the damn tools in her kit to not even need it.. Hell, Sion probably would've LOVED that passive when he got reworked.

LuggOct 11, 20154 votes

It isn't equally effective, but it's still effective, that's the point. Any champion the REQUIRES you to CC them to beat them is broken and needs a rework. End of story. Because there are a lot of champs without hard CC, this makes it where they have zero chance against those champs.

Its All SkillzzOct 11, 20154 votes

{quoted}

It isn't equally effective, but it's still effective, that's the point. Any champion the REQUIRES you to CC them to beat them is broken and needs a rework. End of story. Because there are a lot of champs without hard CC, this makes it where they have zero chance against those champs.

Ezreal dunno i play this guy ap into alot of those champions. and i think death is pretty good cc.

JustMyBassCannonOct 11, 20151 votes

If your entire team is built with little to no hard CC, you've intentionally picked a weak comp in the first place.

LuggOct 11, 20151 votes

That's kinda the point i'm making. You aren't allowed to pick the champion you like due to broken balancing.

JustMyBassCannonOct 12, 20151 votes

You aren't allowed to pick without thinking what the team composition has? Oh my god, it's almost like this is a fucking strategy game or something! My choices actually affect whether or not I can win? This is unheard of, absurd!

LuggOct 12, 20151 votes

And those choices are completely limited by the meta. It's a really simple concept to grasp. No idea why you can't understand this.

JustMyBassCannonOct 12, 20151 votes

I didn't know CC was specific to a meta.

It isn't. Dumbass.

LuggOct 12, 20151 votes

And the point of this discussion has completely eluded you.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/22/ab/cb/22abcb735a645c8f904137e0d61d62b9.jpg

JustMyBassCannonOct 12, 20151 votes

You're calling the game meta-dictated because you can't run a team that has no CC without seriously handicapping yourself. That's, at least logically, what you have stated with your posts.

This is like complaining that a tabletop group is hamstrung if they don't have a healer or a spellcaster in the party.

LuggOct 12, 20151 votes

The point I have been making the whole time is: you aren't allowed to play a champion without hard CC because you are completely screwed by champs that require hard CC to stop. No champion in the game should be able to face another champ with no significant counterplay. That is horrible balance.

JustMyBassCannonOct 12, 20151 votes

You are totally allowed to play a champion that has no CC.

And, in fact, just because one of the counters to a champion is hard CC, it doesn't mean that you're screwed.

But you'd have to have enough brain cells to rub together in order to understand that.

I guess I shouldn't expect much from someone who named their account after a dipshit of a minion.

LuggOct 12, 20151 votes

Ok, how do you stop a Yi or Kat if you can't hard CC them?

While you try to come up with an answer, I will further enlighten you. Lugg is not a minion. It is another word for carry. But then I should have guessed you know nothing about carrying.

http://roastmastergeneral.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/burn_logo_fixed.jpg

JustMyBassCannonOct 12, 20151 votes

No, I did not say "Lug" is another word for minion, I said it was the name of a dipshit minion. But I can't actually expect you to read, can I?

Yi or Kat? Kill them first. It's really not that difficult. If you can't CC them, chances are that you're one of very many champions that can kill them very rapidly. There aren't many CC-less champions that can't kill them quickly.

If you're Nunu, get your team to help.

Never mind that you're supposed to get your team's help against assassins in the first place, but that's just forcing more strategy--and teamwork--into the game, isn't it?

LuggOct 12, 20151 votes

And we have finally reached the point where you agree with what I have been saying all along. You can't solo them with some champions, you HAVE to get help. Game. Set. Match.

JustMyBassCannonOct 12, 20151 votes

And...the fact that some specific matchups are going to work in one side's favor is bad?

Like how a Pawn is absolutely fucked if it tries to deal with a Knight?

LuggOct 12, 20151 votes

The chess example is great. The pawn is at a disadvantage, but can still take the Knight down if you play it right.

That isn't the case in a lot of champ matchups in League.

QuortOct 11, 20151 votes

Let's just give every Champion the same skills, strengths, and capabilities... Yup! That way they'll all have an equal chance against each other, and, since it doesn't matter which one is picked, we will finally have some diversity!

LuggOct 11, 20151 votes

That's one thing I do like about normals. You can end up in a mirror match which is totally decided by skill. I love those games since I win 90% of the time.

QuortOct 11, 20151 votes

I can agree a Mirror Match is a fun (if stressful) situation.

However you can't really complain about choosing a Champion with no CC against a Champion that excels in situations where they will not be locked down (in draft picks). In other game modes, if you happen to be that unlucky, then you can exercise your skills. You also can't make judgements about balance based strictly on dueling potential... If your Champion is unable to reign in those pesky Assassins, then work together; it's a team game. Even if your Champion doesn't provide CC, they have other strengths.

LuggOct 11, 20151 votes

That's the problem in lower elo, there is very little teamwork, people don't communicate, and you always have someone who feeds.

When I'm on a team that works together, my win rate is amazing since I REALLY do well in team plays.

QuortOct 11, 20151 votes

This is true. Strong teamwork doesn't exist at all levels of play, but Riot does their best to balance it for all of them (with a focus on high tier ranked play if I recall correctly). If you can deal with Assasins then you'll move up. It's the reason Assasins are popular and stomp in lower divisions while they see less success in a coordinated environment. I don't think that's necssarily a problem; it's just another facet to game design. From other posts Ive seen by you I believe you have a similar view point? Forgive me if I misread them though! :P

LuggOct 12, 20151 votes

Having played the game for almost 3 years now, I understand why Riot balances at the diamond plus level. It just puzzles me why they don't rework champions like Yi who aren't really viable in high elo.

As for assassins, I have gotten much better against them. However, I still hate Fizz and Zed. Good players outplay me pretty hard on them.

QuortOct 12, 20151 votes

I can deal with Zed but Fizz drives me crazy and I understand the reason: Assassins are generally equipped with a bunch of evasive or escape options so it feels like they make plays around you while you do your best to respond... Not a very good feeling most of the time. When they're too strong they're beyond oppressive and when they're too weak they contribute nothing before being brutally dispatched.

The reason I think Riot is hesitant to rework Assassins like Master Yi that struggle in higher levels of play is twofold:

Other Champions are in more dire need of work, and
Making them relevant would require some creative solution that maintains their identity and differentiates them from other Assassins.

The second point is especially problematic because the biggest reason for bringing an Assassin on your team is the kill pressure. They usually don't contribute much else to a team or, at the very least, not to the same caliber as another class. An Assassin has one main purpose and that is to kill an enemy or group of enemies as quickly and as safely as possible. Whichever Assassin has the best tools to do that job will be the most popular.

EDIT: Don't worry about having to defend yourself or the way you play. Im Silver; Ive stomped as and been stomped by Assassins many times before! We're here to discuss our opinions based on our experiences so I hope you don't think Im trying to talk down to you. :3

LuggOct 12, 20151 votes

No worries. You have been much more polite than a lot of posters.

I have been getting better against Zed since I'm getting my timing down better on QSS and Zhonyas. Fizz is just such a BS champ all around. His E is his actual ult and possibly the strongest ability in the game (including ults) since it has such a low CD once you have it maxed with CDR. At least Yasuo's Wind Wall has a decently long CD. FIzz can use the troll pole THREE TIMES in a long teamfight. That's like having any champ in the game being able to use their ult twice in a teamfight.

Assassins need to have longer CDs on average in my opinion. Their role is to delete carries. So they should have the tools to get in, kill them, and get out. Then they should have long CDs before they can repeat it. After all you now have a 4v5 with the enemy team missing their carry, so it should be an easy win. Right now assassins can do that and keep going wiping your entire team. The biggest problem is that assassins are supposed to be squishy but they are harder to kill than bruisers because of their mobility.

I think those changes would make the class much less toxic while still being effective and viable.

QuortOct 12, 20151 votes

I feel like there are different types of Assassins...

There are the Pick Assassins. These guys usually have massive upfront damage and an easy escape once they've completed their assassination. They excel at taking out a lone enemy and are extremely oppressive when ahead. I'd consider Assassins like LeBlanc, Zed, and KhaZix.

There's the Teamfight Assassins. These guys have low cooldown abilities or resets intended to clean up multiple opponents in large fights. They are generally very susceptible to CC and have to commit fully to an initiation. I would consider Assassins like Katarina, Master Yi, and Akali to be in this group.

Finally, there are skirmishing Assassins. These guys have a good deal of all around mobility and utility. They're meant to make multiple passes on an enemy before taking them down. I would consider this to be Assassins like Fizz, Ekko, and Kassadin.

They're all difficult to balance for a variety of reasons... if the Pick Assassins have too high damage, their reliability makes them oppressive. If the Teamfight Assassins are too hard to lockdown, they run rampant and snowball out of control. The Skirmishers generally have a lot of tools to get in and get out along with sufficient defensive or evasive capabilities and are thus a combination of the two former classifications. They all face different problems. :/

LuggOct 12, 20151 votes

I think the biggest problem group is really the secondary assassins like Yasuo, Riven, Fiora, etc. It's like they get all the benefits of being an assassin with few of the drawbacks.

The Sword SaintOct 11, 20154 votes

Mhm.

On CC Effects Different Champions Differently

T RexHasTinyArmsOct 12, 20154 votes

And champs like Annie KogMaw TwistedFate or Velkoz all mind it even more than the ones you mentioned bc they lack a mobility/invis/shield/immune to target ability that makes them more able to avoid CC than average. Something all the ones you mentioned do happen to have. Oh and for the record Gragas minds it just as much as the other squishies if you build him the burst build which used to be popular on him before his numbers were nerfed.