If Zoe ends up needing nerfs...

Stray Logos·Nov 25, 2017·5 votes·2,849 views

Please don't touch her actual damage. As many have pointed out in the OMG Zoe 1 shot me threads, her damage is incredibly telegraphed and has much more counter play than old Nidalee did. That being said, if her bubble + Q combo is too reliably killing people then the nerf I would suggest would be to make the drowsy status last longer before turning into sleep. This would not touch her damage, but would allow people hit by the bubble more time to move behind minions/tanks/whatever.

I'm not actually saying she NEEDS a nerf, as we still don't have enough people playing her at a high level to tell; however I figured I would just preemptively put this idea out there for the boards to toss around. Right now her bubble is 2 seconds of drowsy, 2 seconds of sleep. Maybe if a nerf needs to happen, give it 2.5 or 3 seconds of drowsy, 2 seconds of sleep.

Anyway what do you all think?

31 Comments

Dope SoloNov 25, 20178 votes

Fuck that. Her damage is the most broken part of this piece of shit trash. I can't even put into polite words how much I hate this new champ and the unbalancedness of it. The nuke on the sleep needs removed entirely.

Stray LogosNov 25, 20174 votes

So I have a question for you since you feel her damage is the problem. She is a burst mage right? Assuming you nerf her damage so she can no longer 1 shot, what kind of role will she fill then? Her kit is designed to be bursty, and if she cannot kill in one rotation (like all other burst mages) then why would you ever pick her over someone like Syndra?

Paladin 0f LifeNov 25, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stray Logos,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u7asEt19,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-11-25T06:13:59.083+0000)

So I have a question for you since you feel her damage is the problem. She is a burst mage right? Assuming you nerf her damage so she can no longer 1 shot, what kind of role will she fill then? Her kit is designed to be bursty, and if she cannot kill in one rotation (like all other burst mages) then why would you ever pick her over someone like Syndra?

Mobility? duh the W the E with a ridiculous zone control. E needed a nerf yesterday. If it hits you are dead in lane and it isnt that hard to hit. She can also clear a back wave with one spell thats it. Even ziggs cant do that until he has item.

Stray LogosNov 25, 20175 votes

This has been stated in other threads, but Zoe is not truly mobile. She cannot escape using her ulti, and her W only functions as an escape if she happens to have ghost/flash which is 2/40 different things she can get on that spell. As for picking her for the W or E... lets take the Syndra example. Syndra also has zone control if she places orbs down. Anywhere in a cone in front of her is likely to be in the stun zone. As for Zoe's W, you may be right that she will be picked for her W; however that remains to be seen. Her W is incredibly situational and as others have pointed out, useless unless her opponents are using spells to escape from her. The flash followup things that Zoe can do are cool, but if she's on the back foot already, that wont help her get away from someone who is flashing towards her.

Paladin 0f LifeNov 25, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stray Logos,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u7asEt19,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-25T06:28:19.806+0000)

This has been stated in other threads, but Zoe is not truly mobile. She cannot escape using her ulti, and her W only functions as an escape if she happens to have ghost/flash which is 2/40 different things she can get on that spell. As for picking her for the W or E... lets take the Syndra example. Syndra also has zone control if she places orbs down. Anywhere in a cone in front of her is likely to be in the stun zone. As for Zoe's W, you may be right that she will be picked for her W; however that remains to be seen. Her W is incredibly situational and as others have pointed out, useless unless her opponents are using spells to escape from her. The flash followup things that Zoe can do are cool, but if she's on the back foot already, that wont help her get away from someone who is flashing towards her.

Go any immobile mage. See how she farms a whole back wave in early game so it is perma shoved. Jung walks in she ult, E (possibly W), Q and backs off while jung is half health. Or better yet the second you step out of minons she combos you and deletes you with only a 2 sec or less reaction time, With 2 maybe 3 abilities thats it. and she peaces out with a flash, ghost, exhaust, heal etc etc. Not to mention she can get a gunblade active at lvl friggin 2

Stray LogosNov 25, 20173 votes

Zoe does not one shot the back wave until level 5+ as even rank 2 at max range of her Q won't do it unless she got a ton of early AP. Comparing her to Ziggs is not really fair since Ziggs' ability to push in waves is intentionally kept low at early levels so he doesnt just roll down towers before 10 minutes. Zoe is not taking towers quickly, and her pushing power is on par with other champions at the same level. Ahri at level 5+ has a Q that can 1 shot caster minions as well.

As for her deleting you with less than 2 seconds reaction time... that's already 1.5 seconds more than other burst mages or assassins like talon/akali. In addition, her E is dodgeable, and has mediocre range if not used over a wall. If you are getting hit by it in lane either you are not standing behind minions or you are being heavily outplayed.

That being said, I do think the random nature of her W could use some looking at. Getting super strong actives like redemption in the first few minutes of the game is kind of silly, but its not something that the Zoe player can actually plan for. Maybe Riot needs to look at the drop tables for the first 10 minutes and adjust what can drop accordingly?

Dope SoloNov 25, 20174 votes

I really don't care what role she plays. Damage needs cut in half at a minimum.

Stray LogosNov 25, 20176 votes

Sounds like you just want her nerfed for the sake of being nerfed. If you are going to downvote at least try to make some kind of argument. Just saying that you don't care, plz nerf is not constructive. If you truly feel that her damage needs to be toned down that's fine, but from where I'm standing Zoe's damage is necessary for her to fulfill her role. If we were to just cut it in half like you are suggesting she would have no reason to exist. Her E is nice CC sure, but there are 5-10 other champs that can all serve the same long range catch potential but with additional benefits as well.

Lets say we cut her Q damage in half. She would then have significantly less burst than other mages who serve a similar role. In order to bring her back to the level of damage required for a burst mage you would have to add power to her somewhere else. Would you be ok with her Q getting cut in half, but her W passive getting extra damage to compensate?

Dope SoloNov 25, 20172 votes

Heres your argument - her damage is clearly too high. The end. The nuke on the bubble is too strong. Period.

Stray LogosNov 25, 20174 votes

Clearly too high? It only does crazy damage if she lands it at max range, which requires a straight line + her ulti to land. Hypothetically if she has landed that against you, its because either you stood there and did nothing to avoid a highly telegraphed skill, or you got snared by a bubble, which also requires that there be no minions around you. I argue that the amount of damage her Q does is entirely justified considering her complete lack of meaningful damage on her other skills. The amount of setup to get a max range Q + auto/litchbane oneshot is on par with what other burst mages have to perform to get their damage out.

Dope SoloNov 25, 20172 votes

bullshit. That's just a lot of justifying without numbers. What we've got here are kiddies that are suddenly good because the new champ, whose damage is too high, is giving them high kdas without any real effort. Naturally, they're trying to keep it that way.

Stray LogosNov 25, 20173 votes

Where are your numbers then? You are the one claiming her damage is too high, so prove it. Show me how Zoe's damage is higher than that of other burst mages? You are the one claiming that the damage is high, so the impetus is on you to support that argument.

Binding EclipseNov 25, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stray Logos,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u7asEt19,comment-id=000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-25T06:59:26.197+0000)

Clearly too high? It only does crazy damage if she lands it at max range, which requires a straight line + her ulti to land. Hypothetically if she has landed that against you, its because either you stood there and did nothing to avoid a highly telegraphed skill, or you got snared by a bubble, which also requires that there be no minions around you. I argue that the amount of damage her Q does is entirely justified considering her complete lack of meaningful damage on her other skills. The amount of setup to get a max range Q + auto/litchbane oneshot is on par with what other burst mages have to perform to get their damage out.

This.

The only reason I do well with Zoe is because a lot of the people I lane against just don't seem to understand the concept of staying behind minions. Does she require skill to play in low-end elos? Not really, no, solely because of the above point. Does she require skill to play when the enemy actually knows how to sidestep/stand behind things/save their aggression for her cooldown phases? Yes. The problem is that people are just throwing themselves at me and crying opop when like...if I was playing any of my other mid laners and you were constantly out of position, you would be** just as dead**.

I do agree that the sleep could use a nerf in the form of 1) extending the drowzy duration, 2) reducing the sleep duration, and/or 3) lowering/removing the damage multiplier. But dead is dead, as LeBlanc or Syndra I would have just as easy of a time punishing my enemies' mistakes in lane. I've lost games playing her, and I've won games playing against her. It's a matter of learning how the champion works and adapting.

Demon King MaouNov 25, 20175 votes

If shes getting nerfed i agree dont change dmg HOWEVER nerf the hell outta sleep so it REQUIRES skill to land her Q not oh i put you to sleep so my Q can land now

Idk just a thought (~~￣▽￣)~~

Stray LogosNov 25, 20173 votes

Well that's why I feel the drowsy duration increase is a good choice. It allows her opponents more time to position themselves so that when they do fall asleep they are not always out in the open. Lowering the duration of t he sleep itself I feel might be too severe as its the only thing that allows Zoe to RELIABLY get max range Q's. I don't think getting hit by E should be a death sentence; however I do think that if Zoe lands her E on a target and they don't manage to use the drowsy window to move to safety, she deserves to land a huge Q.

Dark NephthysNov 25, 20172 votes

Her damage is high but it is because she only has 1 real damaging skill (though I guess you could count her passive as a 2nd damage source) so she is a lot like Zilean where they only have 1 ability but that 1 ability is really strong. Zoe 's Q is kind of like Zilean's double bomb but for the damage comes out the second you get hit by it (assuming max range) where Zilean's would have some of it instantly proc while the other bomb delays for 2 seconds. I'm not going to say nerf Zoe's damage yet...but it is something to watch out for though.

What my problem might be is exactly how strong her bubble is, and how long that bubble lasts on the ground if it doesn't hit anyone. I think 4 seconds might be a little bit to long for how strong that bubble is. I know there is far longer zone control like Ziggs 's mines lasting 10 seconds (which I also feel is a bit to long imo) but his is just a slow and not as strong as a bubble that can hit some one with a 2 second sleep that allows the next ability to basically double its damage.

But honestly...it's to early to really tell how she is right now. Might need to wait a patch to really get a feel of where she is right now.

Stray LogosNov 25, 20171 votes

See I can agree that some of the power in her bubble could be cut without hurting the champions ability to function. I personally have not seen any examples yet of the trap part of her bubble being used very well for zoning purposes. Usually what happens is people don't realize its there and just walk over it, even if there was no reason to get near the trap. Lowering the time it stays on the ground I feel could work if nerfs were necessary, but it strikes me like more of a feel good nerf that wont effect how people actually interact with her.

A Wild GhostieDec 2, 20171 votes

So I play Zoe a lot right now. I do agree her early damage does seem a bit high, however I think it has more to do with her mana costs. I Get a sheen and all of a sudden I don't really need to leave lane unless I get into a fight two or three times. Or I'm trying and failing to poke my oponent but that's besides the point. As for escapes, what escapes? Right, she can escape without the lucky flash, lets all believe that. Her e does need a nerf however. The cool down would probably be the best way to, if you increase the time on drowzee it sounds good on paper but in action. One second in league makes a huge difference. Zed realistically only needs three seconds to kill you with his full combo. Yasuo will do it in two if he lands his full combo when you're at full health with just a few items and about 2 q's and one auto. Syndra can one shot just about anyone whith her full combo. Tgis takes roughly the same time and you're stunned. Tell me what the difference is? Yasuo's q goes through minions, so does Syndra's. What I really think the problem is, is the fact that zoe makes a good support and is difficult to deal with all the e's and q's she can toss around. She can sit in bot and harass freely and it's a problem. Unless the team is coordinated and running proper intefearance. To do max damage she has to put herself in a dangerous position to do anything. Plus if you have all the vision control and she can freally poke from the fow without too much fall back. But all in champs delete her. But what do I know, meh.

higuraNov 25, 20172 votes

As many have pointed out in the OMG Zoe 1 shot me threads, her damage is incredibly telegraphed and has much more counter play than old Nidalee did.

not really, zoe can much more easy shoot around minions and can gain more range by shooting it backwards, she also has her passiv she can use to follow up.

old nida had to move position if she wanted to thow her spear at someone behind a minion wave, also getting hit by a max range old nida spear sure hurts but it wouldn't one shot and she had no way of follow it up (back then didn't you get extra range on jump in cougar form when you hit an ability), so she would have to hope the enemy either got close enough so she could jump them or wait and try to land a other spear.

That being said, if her bubble + Q combo is too reliably killing people then the nerf I would suggest would be to make the drowsy status last longer before turning into sleep.

not a nerf, would just give zoe a longer time to follow up with passiv and item 3100 after a hit.

Stray LogosNov 25, 20171 votes

If Zoe is launching the Q AROUND minions, then it isn't doing huge damage. Remember it has to travel a large distance in a straight line to get to one shot levels of damage. Shooting it around minions is going to do about the same amount of damage as any other mage's bread and butter skill.

Also how is extending the drowsy status not a nerf? Drowsy does nothing to the person it is effecting, its basically just a count down. Extending it only helps the person who gets hit, as it gives them extra time to position themselves in a manner to block the Q with minions or teammates.

Yosuke ApperuNov 25, 20172 votes

I would say reduce her q damage on its own but increase it when used on sleeping targets to close to what it is now. This way her harass now has a condition. Also reduce q damage to minions because she does clear way to easily with her q. All and all however I find her a really neat champion that just needs a little bit of work. (I just got my butt handed to me by one and I still think she's cool) .

Stray LogosNov 25, 20172 votes

I could see this also being an acceptable option; however the reason I went with my suggestion instead of this is because it punishes Zoe players who are exceptionally good at aiming. Plus, unless Zoe is super fed, even a max range Q wont one shot someone unless they have been bubbled first. Will it hit like a truck? Hell yes, but it wont kill from the Q alone. I feel that the drowsy duration increase is the best option because it gives her opponents more agency without actually touching Zoe's ability to serve her fantasy.

DoktorKaiserNov 25, 20172 votes

I don't mind her damage, I never used to complain about old Nidalee either, even though its a very toxic design. What I want gutted to the ground is her CC which is super easy to land, has extremely high range and is almost impossible to dodge and after her CC she cant even miss her Q nuke which is what makes her unbelievably broken atm, with old Nida I could dodge 90% of her spears with ease, with Zoe I can just cry while she absolutely deletes me from the map.

Stray LogosNov 25, 20172 votes

And that is what I'm actually arguing for in the OP. If she needs a nerf, then hit the way her E works, not her damage. Increasing the amount of time a target has before falling asleep gives them more agency over whether they get hit by the long range Q.

DoktorKaiserNov 25, 20171 votes

NO ! What needs to happen is for her CC to work fully like Viktor's W - you have to stand in it for a good second or two and only after that you get CC-ed. This way she will always be able to delete any champion that isn't grouped as soon as she lands her easy CC and getting hit by Zoe means that you will die or have to recall, but 95% of the time you will die. If your team has no tanky champs or you are splitpushing there is no way to run no matter how much delay there is because the CC will eventually come and then you are utterly fucked.

Mal the RedNov 25, 20171 votes

I believe her E could stand to have a higher cooldown, even if she misses and you play around the sleep pool by the time it disappears it's already off cooldown so you can't really punish her for missing it.

VoraciousXNov 25, 20171 votes

The only thing they can possibly nerf on Zoe is her cooldowns, and I expect that's what they'll go for. Possibly a higher Q CD and maybe E. Her ult CD isn't a problem. The fact that her tries are practically infinite and she can throw out a EQ every few seconds that deals half your HP bar level 1 is. Her Q almost definitely needs a CD nerf. You don't NEED E to deal high damage, it just deals higher damage. If they HAVE to buff her to compensate they can give her W more chances to be used.

DaTingGoesSkraaaNov 27, 20171 votes

SHE DOES NEED A NERF TF ARE U ON DRUGS OR SOMETHING

Roy Royal BoyDec 8, 20171 votes

ok Zoe needs a nerf for sure I would say. She is too strong now with her e r q combo. Yes she is a mage and yes she can oneshot people, im totally fine with that but! Most of the mage oneshot champ like lux, her damage comes from her ult and it has at least 30sec cd. but zoe's damage comes from her q which has way too low cd. So I would agree make the drowsy time last longer and add more cd on her q.

Roy Royal BoyDec 8, 20171 votes

in that way she can keep her damage but not broken