Cinderhulk doesn't need to be nerfed.

LukaLuna·Apr 19, 2015·8 votes·1,737 views

Big health, big problems Before you get your knackers in a twist, I don't mean its balanced I think its stronger than every other enchant. But consider this, why is it that counterplay is a huge component of champions, but not item builds? Why not make an item strong, just not towards a person who builds something strong against that in reaction or foresight to the situation?What I'm talking about is something that Meddler may have seen, %Bonus health damage.

One of cinderhulks big factors is the health it can give for an incredibly low cost, 25% bonus health gives you more health based on other health items you buy, essentially this is probably why cinderhulk is overbearing in the lategame; these tanks are just so beefy that combined with armor and MR you can't really dent them efficiently enough for it to have many drawbacks besides them not dealing the most damage, and a %Bonus health damage item would actually fit in to be able to give certain champions access to the ability to take out these monstrous tanks without nerfing cinderhulk itself or even righteous glory for that matter.

Finding a candidate Blue > Green Now first lets talk as if we were giving this titan crashing opportunity to an AD champion; what item can we say has practically no use in competitive play nor solo queue? The Bloothirster itself, Essence Reaver. Well, back in season 1/2 this item would have been spectacular as mana costs were much higher than they were now, but in season 5 our champions have learned to not hate mana pools as much as vlad pools and mana problems aren't as common as they used to be; the item is relatively useless today compared to its big brothers Bloodthirster and Infinity Edge. Also, WHY WOULD IT BE "ESSENCE REAVER" AND NOT REAVE ANY ESSENCES? Giving the job of full on tank buster to this item would not only be a good addition to the game, it would make the item make sense, take minuscule amounts of time to program, and also bring in an item that was never in since its release. Bjergsen's happy place. Tons of tanks means bad times for assassins, and it shows with all the previously dominant assassin champions fading to the wayside for people who can either provide utility or shred an obscene amount of armor (I'm looking at you Urgot). And we all miss our resident deletion expert Leblanc (well, some of us); so why not give champs like her a REAL substitute for Deathfire Grasp, considering that item was meant to kill tanks, why the hell did we not get a tank killing item? We got Luden's Echo which albeit is very nice, isn't very good at what DFG was supposed to do. Ludens has lower AP, bring in a NEW 120 AP item that truly fills the void in our hearts.

As always give me your insight, hopefully a rioter will come by and answer to why it could or could not exist and who it should be given to, in my honest opinion I think both of these are very nice since they both help with something that is just a weird thing that exists or not exists in the game (Essence Reaver being the existing thing, DFG's successor being the non-existant) NOTE: I MAIN VOLIBEAR AND I'M SAYING THIS, DAMN AM I A MASOCHIST.

19 Comments

grLKQ9ma0oApr 19, 20152 votes

... No.

Cinderhulk creates the problem of tanks in this game: Dealing massive damage while not building damage items.

Items need tradeoffs. If you don't build damage, don't do damage. Use your utility to win.

cZairApr 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

... No.

Cinderhulk creates the problem of tanks in this game: Dealing massive damage while not building damage items.

Items need tradeoffs. If you don't build damage, don't do damage. Use your utility to win.

You mean bruisers? You are talking about off tanks man.

ZephyrDrakeApr 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You mean bruisers? You are talking about off tanks man.

except that he isn't. Bruisers and off tanks usually build at least 1 damage item. Most tanks don't bother building any damage items (unless it's an off-build) but still deal stupid amounts of damage late game simply because they get so tanky and Cinderhulk provides so much damage the longer the fights go.

LankPantsApr 19, 20153 votes

Their late game damage is a tradeoff for how little they deal early which also gives them slow clears.

Tanks dealing an insane amount of late game damage isn't isolated to Cinderhulk either. A Sej or an Amumu dealt more damage than some like Lee or Vi in a late game scenario even before Cinder was introduced.

ZephyrDrakeApr 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Their late game damage is a tradeoff for how little they deal early which also gives them slow clears.

Tanks dealing an insane amount of late game damage isn't isolated to Cinderhulk either. A Sej or an Amumu dealt more damage than some like Lee or Vi in a late game scenario even before Cinder was introduced.

sorry but no, their clears are only slow before they build Bami's which is pretty much after their 2nd or 3rd clear. When you can out damage and out tank someone simply by buying tank items there is something wrong with either the damage dealers or the tanks, whether it's their itemization or with the champions themselves. Tanks already bring a ton of utility due to how the kits of actual tanks are they shouldn't need to be able to deal stupid amounts of damage, enough damage to not be ignored? yes but as much as they do now? i don't think so.

Amumu has always been able to deal good damage yes but only if he builds AP which means he isn't building pure tank and Sej's damage while decent it was never what it was now. Cinderhulk while a good itemsfor tanks is something that will simply push out every single other enhancement since it gives way too much for how cheap it is and with the constant nerfs to the warrior enchantment and how pointless the AP junglers are for the most part making Magus be in a awkward situation and then you have devourer which is simply not worth it anymore

cZairApr 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

except that he isn't. Bruisers and off tanks usually build at least 1 damage item. Most tanks don't bother building any damage items (unless it's an off-build) but still deal stupid amounts of damage late game simply because they get so tanky and Cinderhulk provides so much damage the longer the fights go.

"Cinderhulk creates the problem of tanks in this game: Dealing massive damage while not building damage items.

Items need tradeoffs. If you don't build damage, don't do damage. Use your utility to win."

Yeah are talking about off tanks and Bruisers

ZephyrDrakeApr 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

"Cinderhulk creates the problem of tanks in this game: Dealing massive damage while not building damage items.

Items need tradeoffs. If you don't build damage, don't do damage. Use your utility to win."

Yeah are talking about off tanks and Bruisers

i didn't knew Sej was an off tank.. neither an Amumu that doesn't built any AP but ok

cZairApr 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

i didn't knew Sej was an off tank.. neither an Amumu that doesn't built any AP but ok

You didn't say sej and amumu bro. bro you are talking about the two big tanks right now. also they don't do % health damage from there health. so how does sinderhulk effect them?

ZephyrDrakeApr 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You didn't say sej and amumu bro. bro you are talking about the two big tanks right now. also they don't do % health damage from there health. so how does sinderhulk effect them?

Do you even know how Sej's W work? and i was talking about tanks, Amumu and Sej are tanks not bruisers or off tanks or whatever other name people want to call those type of champions

grLKQ9ma0oApr 20, 20151 votes

No I'm not. The problem is that tanks and their kits do so much damage that it's just ridiculous. Sejuani has %health on a 5 second cooldown later on with some pretty ridiculous extra damage with cinderhulk. You can't kill them, but they just walk into you and you can't do much about it.

cZairApr 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No I'm not. The problem is that tanks and their kits do so much damage that it's just ridiculous. Sejuani has %health on a 5 second cooldown later on with some pretty ridiculous extra damage with cinderhulk. You can't kill them, but they just walk into you and you can't do much about it.

so just because they have one big damage move means they are op? Man really? also you're talking about Sejuani the most op talk jungle right now. That's going to get neft. what I'm saying is one movie doesn't do much unless you time it right. Also really using the most oc as a exmaple?

grLKQ9ma0oApr 22, 20151 votes

A big damage move with the utility to keep someone in place and use it over and over again while being unkillable is pretty ridiculous.

MidEvilKnight3kApr 19, 20151 votes

I don't like the idea of items whose effectiveness is based on the bonus stats of the opposing champions. It puts the stats into two categories of usefulness. All items should do either flat damage, or damage based on current or max health, indiscriminate of how the target got their stats. The damage does not have to scale linearly, so you can still have an item focus very heavily on high HP targets if you want, but it should be based on the health they have, not where they got it.

There is a huge problem with an item that is based on the Bonus HP (or another example, armor pen based on bonus armor). If your team has one tank, and someone on the other team builds the tank busting item, the tank busting item does not only focus on tanks, but it makes any defensive item purchased by anyone on your team worth less. It discourages the APC or ADC from grabbing that defensive item because the usefulness of the health or armor got reduced by 25%.

The other problem is that you will have to decide how to deal with different champion kits. Some kits give health (permanently or temporarily), is that health considered bonus health? Now the item just counters Lulu because it helps kill whoever she ults.

LukaLunaApr 19, 20151 votes

I was thinking more along the lines of build less health, build more armor or magic resist, right now we're seeing health bars of 4000 or more at much lower levels and say if someone gets an AD tank busting item you would still have the CC to lock them down and shut out your problem, essentially making it more of a pressure towards tanks having barely any risks right now to have them play accordingly to the carries.

I didn't mean it would give them incentive to focus tanks, I meant it would actually make tanks a bit easier to deal with because right now neither kind of carry can TRULY break through their huge health bars. And even then it would ONLY make them stronger against the tanks, and the bonus health damage would be barely anything against someone with only a banshees veil, meaning carries can still build those defensive items.

MidEvilKnight3kApr 20, 20151 votes

I am not denying the problem, but your solution is an item that counters defensive items, not tanks. As a result all defensive items will be less effective if someone builds your item. It doesn't matter if the carry builds one defensive item, its effectiveness is cut down dramatically because of an item that is not supposed to affect carries as much.

You should do damage based on the stats that your target has, not how they got their stats. That way you can actually focus the item against tanks rather then discouraging all defensive items if you are not a tank. The damage does not have to scale linearly, so if the target has 1000 hp it could do 10 damage, at 2000 hp it does 40 damage, and at 4000 hp it does 160 damage. You can make items that will practically ignore squishies while doing a lot to tanks without splitting stats into two categories.

ForgiveColourApr 20, 20151 votes

tldr yes it does

ErockandrollApr 20, 20151 votes

Tanks, are Hyper carries, simple as that.

Long answer. Riot realizes that Tank Junglers were getting out farmed, out leveled, and even with the sunfire esc passive, Early game Junglers would still dominate and snowball compared to their late game counter parts. This is why Tank Junglers power has been shifted to the late game.

So Really tanks are Just ticking time bombs, Your only screwed if you can't snowball to victory.

{quoted}

... No.

Cinderhulk creates the problem of tanks in this game: Dealing massive damage while not building damage items.

Cinder Hulk does between 16+(level) to 24+(level *1.5), at max level it will only be doing between 34 and 51 magic damage per second. Which is far from being tons of damage, and does not scale with health. What does scale with health though is the Gromp, smite buff.

The only way this could do tons of damage is if your the glass cannon, and if that's the case, you have no business engaging the tank without your Tank/support peeling for you.

BluePolarizerApr 20, 20151 votes

tanks are incredibly hard to kill for bruisers, assassins and burst mages, but they're not that hard for ADCs and certain sustained damage mages (especially Azir, Cassiopeia and Brand).

Its the circle of life. Tanks > Bruisers/Assassins/Burst Mages > ADCs/sustained damage mages. I main bruisers and don't have a problem with tanks. If I lose its because I got outplayed and failed to punish them, or positioned poorly.

Cenobite AzazielApr 22, 20151 votes

One simple argument: !) SOTAG got heavily nerfed when top laners started to build it because of the gold eficiency. Some top laners are picking up smite, instead o TP or flash (!) so they can build cinder hulk. Expect it to be nerfed really hard.