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@RiotRepertoir, I don't think these are the buffs Elise needs, please think this over carefully -OTP

Tormentula··22 votes·4,487 views

Sincerely asking as a 1.9m Elise main.

https://i.imgur.com/mRjIgiq.jpg

For right now, these changes do not help her at all. Her biggest issue is there is no way for her to deal with tanks. She has a weaker clear then tanks and just as if not worse ganks then a lot of them, and doesn't really farm up well (usually a tank can gank as much as her, then have double the farm early). This makes Elise super reliant on purely ganking and getting carried, or snowballing so hard she can duel anybody and give her team time to get strong enough to handle the late game.

Elise previously was able to keep up in pace with her clearing + had the itemization to carry her in the mid game. Liandry's in particular was really good for her.. she could go into guise for 15 Pen for just 1500 gold and great stats, then for 1600 she can cut through tanks with the burn + more great stats. Now however she loses that since oblivion orb is the substitute to guise, and morello is useless the majority of the time. This results in her gold sinking orb for just the pen, then having to spend even more gold to get enough damage to beat tanks and bruisers... but because she's Elise that delay can seriously hurt her momentum and make her fall off unless she's ridiciously fed.

To show some math: Pre-8.4: 1500 (guise) + 1600 (850 Wlasting wand, 750 liandries) = 3100g for 15 pen, %current health burn, 80 AP, 300 HP vs. 1500 (Oblivion Orb) + 1500 (850 for Blasting wand, 650 for Morellonomicon) = 3000g for 15 pen, grevious wounds, 80AP, 300HP.

She gains less damage in total because the stats don't change, and she doesn't have a damaging passive, only an anti-healing passive which, against something that heals, would only make a small difference and the burn damage would cover some of that healing too. It would be better vs. lower HP targets that would heal more then the current health burn would do, but she has an execute for what gets lower anyway.

For the same/more damage output: 1500 (Orb) + 2650 (Amp tome, Blasting, Void) = 4150g for 15 pen, 40% pen, 95 AP <-- glass canon 1500 (Orb) + 3100g (Liandry's torment) = 4600g for 15 pen, %max health burn, damage amp over time, 105 AP, 300 HP

This means for the most efficient damage, she would have to give up her momentum after she gets orb to farm up for those items, but she falls off too quickly inbetween that time. If she upgrades to morello from orb, its a gold sink as it delays another item even longer, and its very situational on the opponent having a WW, soraka, or death's dance to warrant purchasing. Additionally due to her scalings being rather poor, the flat AP build paths don't actually help her by a significant amount, sure a blasting wand will hurt, but its not a blasting wand then 750 gold into a %health burn alongside already purchased flat penetration.

So with the 8.4 Changes she loses that.

What else we got in 8.4: item 3089: Elise has poor scalings so this doesn't benefit her. Makes nid and Evelynn stronger but Elise isn't affected aside from potentially getting outcompeted by higher scaling AP champs. item 3285 item 3030 item 3003: None of these are good for her. Ludan's and Archangel are self explanitory for a jungler, GLP I thought would've been really good but lost chapter is a huge gold sink for a jungler, and the item is overall more expensive then protobelt so even if you do build it for the revolver powerspike, chapter -> GLP is a lot less powerful and is also further away to purchasing then kindlegem -> Protobelt so you can live longer and have some extra wave clear/gapcloser. No one I'm aware off in Elise mains does a GLP build, and we're split almost 50/50 on the protobelt build so this item isn't really helping. Honestly I was hoping this item would get buffs so that it can work super well for her, but I still have to consider that this will affect the laners that build it too (who exactly tbh? just sol? I honestly don't know what builds this. ) item 3907 Honestly don't see anything using this item. Its too squishy too and like I said, her scalings aren't amazing. I occasionally see a veigar or cassio build it, but other then those it's not that widely used IME and on Elise, again scalings are bad the active is too unreliable (does it matter half the time? I don't know. Could use some clarity like "total bonus damage dealt" some runes give.) item 3905 _This item would be ok but it doesn't have a damaging passive, the active is nice but the active doesn't make her dueling better, you're only benefiting from the CDR and MS. I've tried it a couple times, its cool, but its not a good bandaid, if elise has her build versitility back I'd say it'd be cool on a supportive elise build but she desperately needs damage from item passives in order to stay relevant since her bases are too low, so she needs items that scale themselves or give pen so her bases and small scaling hurt more. _ item 3116 _Got a small AP buff, doesn't change much cause its only + 10 AP with bad scalings to begin with. The only nice thing is that Liandry's does %Max health so pairing rylais with Liandry's is really strong. A lot of Elise mains (in our discord) are bit split on this build though, some of us like it, some of us don't, we're still in the air on whether or not this is even good enough to be the core build for Elise like it was in the past, but even with that build, we're struggling. _

Anyway, yes she needs buffs, but I don't think you're targeting the correct direction for them. I'd rather get +2AD over +2 seconds of rank 1 cocoon, and just about everybody in Elise mains agreed that +10 damage on base spider form Q isn't doing anything, infact everything related to spider form is perfectly fine. We need changes to make her human form better, whether its her AoE W for her clears (she's sooo slow at raptors and krugs) or more interaction for her Q (a lot of Elise mains requested a rework on the human form Q because its just a point and click ability that does a weak 4% current health damage, cost 80 - 100 mana, only gains 3% more current health damage per 100 AP, and has a base of 40 - 180 damage.) but I personally would just be fine with a buff to the ability. whether its increasing the %dmg, or increasing the base damage (preferably both tbh, move that spider form buff to human form +10 on all bases and buff her % to 6 or 8 or making it scale with ranks like 4/5/6/7/8).

Please reconsider those changes. I just feel down the road power is being put into places it doesn't belong, and if it was put elsewhere, we'd be more satisfied. I wouldn't mind those buffs getting pulled and waiting a week-month for more thought out ones. If you do let them go through, I feel they'll just reap potential power from else where (like that base +10 in spider Q when it would be better if human Q got +10, balancing out her kit.)

I'm really sorry for the long read, but I truthfully just don't want her to be misdirected with what she needs/gets. Season 3 Elise was hell for a lot of our community (not mains, you guys that had to play against this OP champ) so I don't want that again, and her season 4-mid5 was so painful for us mains and we'd hate for either buffs that lead to that occurrence or see her get buffs in the wrong places so she gets stuck in mediocrity until a rework. Cocoon CD buff is a utility change and right now, utility isn't the issue, its effectiveness against what is meta, and while the argument that "nerf the meta, elise becomes good" might sound appealing, Elise historically could hold her own against metas, we seen the same WW and tanks during season 7, when I believe she was in her prime and as a glass cannon too. Just right now, tanks got stronger, Elise got weaker from the nerfs and her items got worse/more limited with what synergizes with her. (I agreed glass cannon season 7 Elise was too strong, but AD + Rappel + Base W damage wasn't the right call.. maybe her W scaling needed cut down a bit but Base w nerf -> compensated buffed scaling on W locked her into a glass cannon assassin playstyle that has little recovery when she gets behind, and gets outclassed when originally Elise was this unique fighter/diver that picked duels and itemized around her team rather then herself later on.)

Sincerely

24 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoir6 votes

She's likely to need more/different stuff, I agree. We're taking Elise slowly rather than in a big swing at this time because we are considering upcoming jungle changes that could benefit her and we could easily overswing and slingshot her to the top.

I can believe these changes aren't the right changes as well. We got to the end of the 8.7 work cycle before the patch was cut and had basically a few hours to give a few champions some quick, simple power injections. If they're not correct, there's nothing about them that makes us unable to pull back on them and do something else instead in the future.

Tormentula1 votes

I don't know what the jungle changes are so I can't predict what will happen. But if it helps her it'll likely help a lot of picks as well in the jungle so either way she may be contested. Again I don't know, I know at the moment, some high elo players did complain that her clear is too slow in comparison to tanks and bruisers (especially mid game) and that catching up from spam ganks is way harder for her than other champions who usually can have double her farm after a gank either due to better itemization (tiamet builds, attack speed, ) or kits (AoE damage with high bases.) while being as efficient in the right hands.

If you're doing internal testing around those changes, I'd keep an eye on that part because she may need help in clearing. That AD + base W nerf did make her noticably slower, and while the machete changes for preseason helped make up for when she took attack speed runes for the clear, she doesn't have attack speed runes or magic pen runes when in a duel/skirmish so she got a bit weaker against other junglers uneffected as much with the transition.

I don't think the changes will be noticed if they go through personally, I even played her on the PBE a little bit to see if there's any noticable difference, but I didn't feel it. I do think we'd happily accept a "taking elise slowly" approach and we understand completely why. I do wish though that she was taken slowly in other areas. Small changes like buffing her base W (volatile spider) but as compensation nerfing the scaling so she can off-tank again and open up strategic team oriented itemization again, or like wise doing the same thing for her human Q. Even if its by the same 10 points. We like that you're willing to give her buffs and we were thrilled that you communicated with us, those buffs we just think in the long run could've been in different spots.

Thanks!

Apathing1 votes

I don't have fancy math like OP, but some small changes that I think might be useful are increasing base armor (27 is really low compared to other junglers, only kindred and ivern have sub 30 in jungle). Increasing midgame clear speed is the only other issue from my perspective, but I'm that doesn't seem like a quick fix type of thing. Thanks for looking into Elise.

Edit: I only mention the armor thing because it helps in duel/diving, not for clear health.

Seviel Vorose1 votes

Hello Repertoir. I'll take the chance to ask you what your plans for Syndra are. We do agree Syndra might be oppressive again if straight buffed, that's why we strongly believe she needs a Transcendent Q revert. I even made many threads with valid points that were unfortunately ignored. Please, come over to r/syndramains, you'll notice most of the fellow players will agree on this.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

What jungle changes? What do you mean, 'upcoming'? Are you planning to rework the jungle in the midseason? Or are you just going to leave Elise in her current spot until the next preseason?

Changing the jungle in the middle of a season seems really extreme.

Almo1 votes

I can appreciate that. We don't want volibear and nunu first treatment and are willing to help you with constrictive feedback. Honestly, seeing Riot responding to our posts makes me want to play Elise with the current adjustments on the PBE even if I don't like these changes just to give you constructive feedbacks.

Please just don't forget about her. The AP item changes were a huge nerf for Elise. She really lost A LOT of power from items that made her viable into the mid game. Her build path is so delayed and unhealthy for her right now.

Ultîma1 votes

Hey Repertoir, how does the team feel about AP-junglers as a whole currently? Evelynn Fiddlesticks Ivern Ekko Diana Elise all seem to be suffering in that position.

Seviel Vorose4 votes

As a 1M Syndra main, i understand your pain. Being ignored by Riot when you probably know your champion better than them is terrible at best.

Irìss2 votes

Fellow Syndra player here...50 base damage sphere rank 1....LOL.

Kaìju3 votes

As someone who is getting into Elise it's nice to know I'm not crazy. Q feels like it has an insane mana cost and is the reason I always run out. I almost wish I could just go tank and some almost 100% of the game in spider form because outside of human E her human form just feels really bad. Spider form feels more comfortable and fluid.

The Minion hunt3 votes

I don't know man that 10 damage be huge mate.

I nid a leesch3 votes

Having an effecient multicamp clear is a must. Cause if you dont and you somehow died lvl 3 getting back into the game is super difficult. I messaged repetoir telling him those buffs are pointless I think he actually thinks its good. It will change nothing, it buffs part of her kit that dont need any buffs. She isnt spamming e and her q has insane mana costs so spamming that is pretty stupid to. Until you get runic echoes elise's mana costs and multicamp clear speed sucks azz.

Ultîma3 votes

Should Elise be strong against tanks though? Historically, Elise has always been more of a pick-oriented dueling mage jungler, and extremely dominant in most metas. She suffers a bit from the Lee Sin and Nidalee syndrome where - if she's strong - she tends to invariably be the best jungler in any given scenario. I agree that Elise is in need of help right now, but I think you're trying to argue that she should have more agency against matchups that shouldn't favour her. I'm not sure if that's a good approach considering how her kit works. I think AP junglers as a whole are suffering at the moment and should be looked into since Gragas, Nidalee, Elise, Fiddle and Ekko are all absent at the moment. As you've pointed out, the AP-item rework did not help them in the Jungle.

Tormentula3 votes

(This is a long post, srry didn't intend it to be one >.<)

Depends how you look at it.

Back when Elise was a skirmisher/fighter/mage/diver rather then an assassin (as of season 7) she was the "%health champ" that made her really good at chunking tanks for lots of damage and out DPSing them with her healing.

If you ever wondered why her Q is so weak right now, its because back at release Elise her Q made her an extremely toxic poke bully in lane as tanks had no way to deal with % health damage that well and she won about every match up because of it, then went off tank like most fighters so she wasn't easy to kill while she still did a lot of damage when you built HP. They tried to force her into the jungle because of this.

This made her a good fighter because she actually could chunk and beat tanks at all stages of the game, while other fighters (back when true damage wasn't always around.) often couldn't kill a tank by the time they walked away back to their tower. However even in times like season 6 where she was actually nicely balanced after some understandable runic echoes nerfs, she was still a really nice tank killer because %health damage was still there, she did a lot of damage with ryliandry's, and she could go off tank and still handle herself against tanks because she had everything she needed. Now however, if she goes off tank she won't do enough damage to most tanks, and she'll likely get bursted by tanks too. If she goes full AP she's a glass cannon and I think its a common trend lately that a glass cannon isn't nearly as effective as a lot of tanks and bruisers in the jungle (which is more effective, getting 100-0'd by elise that built full AP and is squishy, or getting 80-0'd by WW then finished off by his team while he still goes for the rest of you with insane stats. Or getting 100-0'd by evelynn, heal up, and somebody else get 100-0'd again, and again and have no clue what angle shes coming from. Eve is my secondary too..)

Tanks also changed from that time.

Think about this: Sejauni's passive at level 7 does 15% max health magic damage with an auto that is affected by her frozen debuff. She can E you, auto for 15% max health, then ult you and hit for you another 15%, doing 30% max health damage in a combo, + the base damage of the ultimate, Q, W, and the admittingly small amount the autos do. Elise does current and missing health damage, (both lower and less consistent then max health), and its 4% current + 8% missing and 3% bonus per 100 AP on both.. so Elise never actually does break even with sej's damage until a few items (where sej does 40% in that combo with 20% per frozen auto). The drawback is sej has a longer Cd on ult and delay on E so that's not 40% every rotation, but in a gank thats more then effective enough to outclass or even 1v1 Elise to win the game.

Should she be a tank killer as a niche? I don't think so but a tank even if his name is WW shouldn't be able to 1v1 Elise a lot of the time early-mid game and then just get tickled late game, they should be threatened by her "oh its % health champ i gotta play more carefully" but not outright destroyed (early they should, tanks should be strong late while elise is bad late. Elise should be allowed to snowball off a tank early while she can.)

Almo2 votes

Honestly, these buffs are all hitting the wrong parts of her kit that does not feel bad at all. Her Human form is really a joke and it does no damage at all. Like why even bother playing Elise if there are a lot of champions that do her job better? She has 27 armor vs 30 for most all champions. She has shitty AP scaling and her early game is out shined by tanks. Give us back power on her Q. Make it actually deals damage and give her power on first clear with human form on her W so we can actually take out raptors.

I always ask people why they play Elise when Sej, WW, Zac, Kha zix.. etc exists? Elise in such a depressing situation right now.

https://plays.tv/video/5aac7147348e5f853d/sej-damage?from=user

Thefrostyviking2 votes

To be fair, that video doesnt prove much, aside from the fact that her sustain is a bit weak.

Seju came in ontop of damaged elise after abilties had been used,,,,,most junglers would find that situation to be difficult.-

Almo1 votes

yes, this example is not the best. However it does showcase why play Elise where you can build tank and deal tons of damage. I wish I had a better example recorded.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

It's not even tons of damage, because elise is a mage, with the paper defense of a mage, she is in fact really squishy.

Seju doesnt deal a lot of damage, but between the damage from blue buff and the Seju damage she ends up exploding because.....well she is a glass cannon that got hit.

And it all got made so much worse by a few things, the fact that most abilities had been used on blue buff, Seju getting to do a surprise attack and....well the damage already taken.

Glass cannon with no abilities left, having taken damage and getting jumped on by a full health opponent who gets their entire rotation off is pretty much a disaster for any jungler i can think off.

So rather than mini damage and cooldown buffs, i think she needs to have her sustain or base armor buffed, otherwise she will just keep being so easy to invade and stomp on.

GrReaper961 votes

Would be nice if she had better clear or a more reliable sustain. Maybe instead of giving her on-hit healing in spider form instead give her omnivamp in spider form?

Almighty1 votes

What if Venomous bite was actually venomous and had a % max HP damage over time added to it? This will not only make Elise better against tanks, but it will also improve her jungle clearning.

[sg-ahri-2] http://www.auplod.com/u/dpoula9d885.png

Tormentula2 votes

It would overload the ability with more power then it needs. A poison mechanic for venomous bite makes sense but its not what she would need and adding that power to an already good ability would reap power from other parts of her kit.

The biggest issue is we need power into other places of her kit. Put that kind of mechanic in her human q (called neurotoxin) and I'm completely fine with that. Or make some kind of interaction where her human Q applies a debuff and her spider Q procs that debuff (like how nidalee can apply the hunted debuff on targets and then proc them with cougar.)

O Fallen Scholar1 votes

Her human form is garbage. I'll take the reduced cooldown on her cocoon but she also needs reduced mana cost on Q and possibly more damage. Her spider form has always been good imo.

SwiftKitten881 votes

@OP did u try Elise out with the pbe buffs they had with panthfinder knife when those were on..

the new item 1039 change they had

http://www.surrenderat20.net/p/84-pbe-cycle.html#balance3

helped my Nidalee first clear TREMENDOUSLY and i desperately want them back

Tormentula1 votes

When it was on PBE it didn't help. Not only was dueling power lost without skirmishers, but she needs machete in order to clear faster since we lost the attack speed runes we used, and there's no magic pen alternative for early duels. MR wasn't buffed but the pen did help in her clears if you weren't going attack speed.

I don't know what it would look like if the talismen change went through but everything else was unchanged though, cause it just felt like a power dip without skirmishers when you needed it and with all the new AP item changes also on that PBE cycle.

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