Meta is disgusting and terrible

Dwarvesneedfood2·Oct 14, 2017·115 votes·4,509 views

I am watching worlds right now and an adc who is 1-2-5 241 cs is out dpsing a mid on the same team who is 4-0-4 292 cs (that is ~1250g difference including subtraction of death). I am trying to keep as quick information as i can... but i am 100% grossed out by what i am seeing. A Cassiopeia that flash ults in a fight... can not out dps an adc that was outplayed and out comp'd in the bottom lane.

Grossed. Misfits will lose because of the risky Yasuo pick.. But the fact a Twitch adc with a gigantic gold difference can out dps his own mid __laner makes no sense.

*edit just looked at the end of the score and it was 18.5 vs 27k damage. ABSOLUTELY APPALLING that someone who contributes to more OVERALL play... Can not contribute MORE to the win of the game. Then someone who dies... AND BANKS on the rest of the team... But is completely successful... just... due... to champion selection.

77 Comments

FeathermaneOct 14, 201754 votes

Late game comps are twice as safe as they should be. Also, what kind of late game starts at 1.5 items? Riot really fucked up with this series of patches. And I agree that mages look completely outclassed - thanks to shield stacking, they can barely scratch ad carries. Also, Cho is basically ruining the entire tournament - no matter how stupid the play, he makes it work with power of broken.

woodvsmurphOct 14, 20174 votes

I agree with you on everything except the cho. Cho dies faster than other tanks despite his hp stacking ult because his scaling with defensive items isn't as good as most other true tanks. Maokai, poppy, malphite, nautilus, sion - they all have kits that enhance the defensive items they buy while cho only has ult stacks to do so. Because hp stacking is so punished by champs and items (so many %hp damage on items), cho is super squishy compared to what one of said other tanks are with the same hp and defensive items.

Also, Cho's damage only scales to be a true kill/1-shot threat IF he can get several (around 3+) ult stacks beyond his 6 "free" ones. His lane sustain is not as good as other champs because it requires he kill off minion waves - if he can be zoned, he can easily be whittled down - unlike maokai. He's highly vulnerable to ganks; however you can totally 1v1 him early and use that to build a lead and continue 1v1'ing him mid/late if you play properly. You can't do that if you braindead sit in the minion wave farming and never punishing him. You need to stand out of the wave - forcing him to attack YOU OR MINIONS - never both at the same time. Zone him off cs or force him to blow spells just to farm. Freeze him out of lane. It's no different from how you are supposed to play against gp. Cho is good sure, but he's not broken.

He must actually put in a lot of work to get to 1-shot potential. Surviving an early laning phase where he can generally lose the 1v1 and is easily punished via ganks since cho naturally pushes when he farms while having no escape mobility tools. Engaging teamfights where he has less reliable engage than tanks with gapclosers. Being denied ult stacks via teammates ks'ing last second or enemies getting a last second spammable shield/heal in to deny him a stack. Potentially blowing flash - his only safety net - to get a stack. He has to take more risks than other tanks to do his job. He's not as tanky as them unless he's got 2x his normal stacks for any given point in the game. And his reward for all this is... he actually deals meaningful damage. If you let a tank get so many stacks that cho is "broken" in that game; you would have lost regardless of what toplaner was being played. Because if you can't deal with the squishiest 0 mobility tank and his team, then you wouldn't be able to deal with some other tankier champ who offers more reliable engage and equally solid base damage.

The steam lifeOct 14, 20175 votes

If he had that much counter play he wouldn't be Worldss pick/ban

woodvsmurphOct 15, 20172 votes

He does have that much counterplay.

The reason you still see him at worlds is because...

people at that elo are more respectful of what champs CAN do and don't spend 5 yrs dancing around a minion like they do in bronze/silver.
Meta only builds. No botrk renekton or such solutions to fully punish cho.
Picked generally only upon seeing the enemy's toplaner. Either jayce where you just look to stack armor and a bit of hp, then use passive to sustain through jayce poke or maokai - where you play safe, plan on dying once or twice early if focused (giving all-important bot lane a guaranteed 3v2 then), and then just scale up do do enough damage to threaten your enemy laner while still matching their tankiness provided minions are around.

Those are a few of the pretty obvious reasons. But then again, there's so many people with spam down/upvote on boards, I forget many of them don't actually THINK and consider what is said.

The steam lifeOct 30, 20171 votes

I do unlike you who only wants freelo. He is again pick ban not a counterpick if any team goes for a late game comp cho is in it. Also again if he had so much counterplay pros would be able to abuse it, pros respect what can be done and what will be done such as losing an all in early to a lategame scaling behemoth. I really dont understand how you think that if the best players in the world cant beat cho then he has easy available counterplay. like sure they respect what "he can do" but all youre really saying is that he would win if they go in on him so they just choose not to fight him and that hes insanely busted as he will simply outscale.

woodvsmurphNov 1, 20171 votes

What? Just look at the pro games and high elo streamers - cho is totally abused by damage plus cc combo's of toplaners plus junglers and put hella behind early. And this focus CAN continue into mid and late game.

And sure he can sit by tower and farm, but you rotate people and dive him then. Or, you shove him in and force him to play defensive by chunking him low and making him think you will dive him... only to gank another lane instead. Or, you just get first tower asap and repeat that elsewhere since he will continue letting you push him in if that's how he wants to avoid dying early.

He is 100% punishable IF you choose to focus him. Arguing otherwise is like saying vayne can never be punished because she can farm at tower and has no pressure to fight early since she scales so amazingly. Which we all SHOULD know is a complete lie.

4th3t0sOct 14, 20175 votes

Cho isn't even a tank, what the hell are you on?

Big Black CrocOct 14, 20172 votes

People build him full Hp and I'm pretty sure he's a vanguard

Radiant SeraphOct 14, 20173 votes

He's got a "Unique Playstyle" according to Riot

woodvsmurphOct 15, 20171 votes

[slayer-jinx-wink] I am on... (whispers) carpet. Cho can be built as: full ap burst mage, ap bruiser, hybrid bruiser, tank. So... what are YOU on?

4th3t0sOct 15, 20171 votes

Itemization has NEVER been a part of what class a champion is assigned to; but I'll see myself out, too many of you to bother arguing with.

woodvsmurphOct 17, 20171 votes

So lulu support and lulu mid or top (when that was a thing) built differently. And fulfilled different roles. I get what you are saying I think... like darius will never be an adc even if he builds adc items... and that does hold true. But some champs can fulfill multiple roles depending on how they are built.

Korean jax for example turns jax into more of a teamfighting bruiser due to itemization while his more traditional NA build has included more attack speed and duelist items to make him a squishier splitpushing duelist. Thus different items = different class for same champion.

Also in cho's specific case, he is what Hots would call a "specialist" or possibly "multiclass". He doesn't truly belong to any class.

I could cite more examples if needed; however the jax example illustrates the point clearly and irrefutably since almost everyone knows the build and the reasoning behind it.

Power CosmicOct 14, 20172 votes

I agree 100%. Game needs to change where the damage comes from.

ThilmerOct 15, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Late game comps are twice as safe as they should be. Also, what kind of late game starts at 1.5 items?

That's the problem.

"We have a late game composition, but if the game last 15 minutes or more we instawin". What the actual hell? What kind of hipercarry reaches late game at minute 15? What kind of "late" is that?

XDDDOct 14, 201731 votes

"We are aware that ardent is too strong"

So are you gonna do anything? "We are monitoring the item closely and understand that ardent has less skill expression than redemption"

Then why haven't you done anything about it? "Well we really don't want to shake up the meta around worlds or, you know, any other time really. If we nerf something, then we'll buff something else related to the same kit/item and tell ourselves it's a net power-down."

So are you gonna do anything? "We're working on some changes but keep in mind that most of our resources are devoted to the horde of changes coming preseason"

So are you gonna do anything this season? "Nah we'll chill till next season till the balance gets thrown off anyway and we might not have to deal with it anymore. Oh and by the way here's another post about my Quick Gameplay Thoughts that lets you know that I realize there's an issue and we might fix it later. Enjoy the meta since it's not changing till preseason friends."

ElikainOct 14, 20175 votes

You do realize that the Worlds patch is 7.18 while our patch is 7.20? What you see in Worlds with Censer has already been adjusted for us in 7.19.

True, maybe not the gutting everyone expects but it's time to realize when people are memeing. When something gets strong, cutting it in half won't solve anything. It may no longer be viable to use but the point is not to remove it from the game. The point is to offer clear strengths and weaknesses and allow champions to pick the item according to their needs.

XDDDOct 15, 20174 votes

Many people argue that it got stronger in 7.19 due to compensation buffs (supports get it too now). Which brings me back to my point of

"we'll buff something else related to the same kit/item and tell ourselves it's a net power-down"

Enchanter items should at least have some artificial weaknesses (efficiency, build path, pre-requisites, cost). I can understand low cost due to being a support item but it comes online instantly (just put a shield on something). At least Redemption has a delay, high CD, and it got its cost upped when it was broken as hell on top of that.

LordGeovanniOct 15, 20173 votes

redemption has a delay because it is giving a heal to champions that otherwise would not have a heal. Ardent censer it gated by most sheilds and heals being long cooldown the problem with that is most ADCS dont need a long time to kill anyone with or without ardent censer.

VoraciousXOct 15, 20173 votes

{quoted}

redemption has a delay because it is giving a heal to champions that otherwise would not have a heal. Ardent censer it gated by most sheilds and heals being long cooldown the problem with that is most ADCS dont need a long time to kill anyone with or without ardent censer.

The problem with Ardent Censer is that it just sits there and does it's job in the background. What do ADCs get out of censer? They get extra DAMAGE WHILE ALSO GAINING A SHIELD. Isn't Janna's shield giving AD enough combat stats on a shield? People always complain about Riven's shield scaling being based on AD, but what about shields that GIVE damage? I personally think they removed the wrong component of censer. They could have kept the heal, and removed the attack speed and it would have been fine.In fact it'd even work for the identity of the item. You shield a teammate and they're given a chance to gain their health back while they're shielded.

LordGeovanniOct 15, 20172 votes

That is not a problem with the sheild or the extra combat stats what is that is a problem with a class that always has support being balanced to not need support.

Unironic SJWOct 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That is not a problem with the sheild or the extra combat stats what is that is a problem with a class that always has support being balanced to not need support.

It's funny that Riot will NEVER EVER make a champ like HOTS's Cho'Gall but they've essentially designed an entire lane around a similar interaction.

A huge part of the "ADC in 2k17" thing was that nobody wants to play support properly (which is why Riot had to massively overtune the role's items) because people would prefer to play for their own glory and stats so you either balance around ADCs always having support which means ADC is miserable to play in the games where the team doesn't want to help them (ADC has never been bad in high elo and competitive, ever for that reason) or you balance around ADCs not always having support which means ADC is overbearing when it DOES get support.

LordGeovanniOct 16, 20171 votes

nobody wanted to play support because supports had no influence as their own champions and they still dont they just make adcs scale harder and adc items were massively overtuned since 2016 nothing changed this pre season except maybe item cost which means that their power didnt change and they always had that power

NakedGrannyOct 15, 20172 votes

Exactly right.

Censer is just a binary "are you near your enchanter" check for a free (as far as the adc's budget is concerned) steroid. In essence, it is free damage that the carry didn't have to pay for and all they have to do is stay near their babysitter.

LordGeovanniOct 16, 20171 votes

then that is a problem with adcs power budgets not the ardent censer.

MimrOct 15, 20172 votes

{quoted}

You do realize that the Worlds patch is 7.18 while our patch is 7.20? What you see in Worlds with Censer has already been adjusted for us in 7.19.

True, maybe not the gutting everyone expects but it's time to realize when people are memeing. When something gets strong, cutting it in half won't solve anything. It may no longer be viable to use but the point is not to remove it from the game. The point is to offer clear strengths and weaknesses and allow champions to pick the item according to their needs.

It's still way too strong. Meta is still pick an Ardent support with Twitch/ Tristana/ Vayne or lose.

DavakenOct 14, 201724 votes

Didn't Double just get to stand and free-hit the whole teamfight, while Bjerg was cc'ed and stuff? Context matters.

Leaf on BushOct 14, 201714 votes

confirmation bias > context

DisembarkOct 15, 20171 votes

Yeah, on top of that Bjerg can hit 1 target while DL hits 5. If Bjerg was playing Viktor it would be a completely different story.

ModAcademy KaynOct 15, 20172 votes

Felt like something was being excluded.

PePsiLemoNNOct 14, 201721 votes

Back at it again with the upvote farm

SilmarilOct 14, 201711 votes

Meanwhile on the same stage, Jensen outdamages all 9 other players combined in a teamfight with Syndra.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2430&v=LR3fEzsQDnU

I'm not going to deny that ADCs, or rather botlane as a whole, aren't too strong, but this idea that ADCs absolutely rule the Rift with an iron fist while every other role has apparently zero relevance is so exaggerated it's not even funny.

BlåbæretOct 14, 20174 votes

Lmao. R u comparing right-click spam with skillshots? Lol K buddy.

DurzakaOct 14, 201711 votes

Dont pretend it is actually difficult to land anything with Syndra

The steam lifeOct 14, 20173 votes

But it is tho

DurzakaOct 14, 20173 votes

No it isnt. Her W and E have massive hit boxes. Her R is point and click. And her Q has such a short cooldown, even IF you miss, its already back up.

I love Syndra, but saying landing skill shots is hard on her is straight wrong.

DarkSunSovereignOct 14, 20173 votes

Her W hitbox was nerfed, her E deals zero damage, and her ult deals a lot of dmg but it's single target.

DurzakaOct 14, 20173 votes

ok?

Her W is still very easy to land, and her E having low damage is irrelevant to the conversation, say with her ult being single target.

The point was OP was implying Syndra's skill shots were hard. They aren't.

DarkSunSovereignOct 14, 20172 votes

They're no harder than any other mage skillshots is what I'm saying.

And her E dealing low damage is relevant; this all started with a guy saying Syndra's damage is reasonable cuz it's unreliable skillshots. You said E was reliable, so I pointed out it didn't deal damage as a result. Same with ult being single target.

The steam lifeOct 30, 20171 votes

which is why she has a 47% winrate because shes so easy to play. Ty for not playing syndra and being an idiot

DurzakaOct 30, 20171 votes

First off, you can go fuck yourself, Syndra is my go-to mid laner whenver I have to actually play midlane.

Second, you can be underpowered/weak and still have simple/easy to land skills.

The steam lifeOct 31, 20171 votes

(x) doubt because obviously.
If she was underpowered she wouldnt be contested in pro play.

DurzakaOct 31, 20171 votes

Ryze has one of the lowest win rates in the entire game in solo queue.

Still a contested pick in pro play.

So thats pretty irrelevant to the dicussion.

The steam lifeNov 2, 20171 votes

Yeah and ryze isn’t underpowered how is that not relevant

Not xPekeOct 15, 20171 votes

wow, thanks for posting the video, I know exactly which part of the video I can watch the clip of Jensen outdamaging everyone.

Kappa, I don't [sg-janna]

SilmarilOct 15, 20172 votes

Hmm, I included the timestamp in the link, but it doesn't seem to be working properly on the boards (it seems to start the video at 39:37). If you follow it all the way to the youtube page though, it goes straight to the replay of the fight in question (40:30), about 10 seconds before the damage graph pops up.

Not xPekeOct 15, 20171 votes

oki thanks!

PaffWasTakenOct 14, 20177 votes

Remember when people who mained the role who's main action is to click on someone to get kills complained about how their lane was horrible? Yeah, I miss those days

ElikainOct 14, 20176 votes

You forget that Cass is a single target DPS mage (most of the time) while Twitch with his items can wipe out entire team if he gets into a good position. Let's be realistic and compare champions that can be compared instead of just thinking that being down for a certain amount of time should equal to not being able to deal enough damage compared to someone who had a slightly better laning experience than you.

There are a lot of other factors coming into play, not just the 1250 gold difference you mentioned. When you look at it, that's not even a full item but at best, a single big component of a said item.

BoulderoxOct 15, 20174 votes

gee item 3504 I Wonder Why this meta sucks It's like the entire game is reliant on funneling xp and gold into one item, slapping the adc on the ass and sending them to kill the enemy because for a tiny moment in time, support was a great role, but not in a good way, it is strictly supports that can build this cancer item 3504 . And from this, when supports hold so much power, the adc becomes more vital and powerful as a role which isn't healthy in most cases.