Thorough Wrap up around what is wrong with Quinn's Rework, or at least what people FEEL is wrong!

BiPolar Vayne·Nov 1, 2015·3 votes·904 views

Thorough wrap up around what is wrong with Quinn's Rework Or why people feel like it is! (If you read this Repertoir, please leave a thought) * /r/QuinnMains

Hey there; It's me again - Quinn & Valor enthusiast Kwathreon! You may have read my ideas for a rework, or my complaints about the changes and how these completely move away from what Quinn's core identity is both champion and lore wise - as much as strategical niche is concerned they just get thrown from one to the next. In this wrap up I plan on thoroughly going through the many thoughts and reasons and either dismiss them or provide substantial background/evidence for them; feel free to elaborate further in the comments or argue with my Wrap up! (I hope Riot Repertoir gives it a read and comments it - however unlikely it might seem, he has been very active so there is a small possibility!)

First off let's start with the most important issue at hand: Quinn&Valor's identity as a Champion Team in the game, and their lore - and how their kit does or does not reflect the CORE of Quinn's identity. There has been a lot of discussion and many different opinion on what is really core to Quinn&Valor's gameplay, and what role they really do fit. I will just base it off of their lore (what they were intended to be in the first place and what their initial design and lore depicts them as being). In order to understand this, first of all you need to know both their lore and the information on them that was given on their background during release, if you do not know anything about their lore and background feel free to check it out here to not be spoiled by my posts: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Quinn/Background In their lore Quinn and Valor are defined as Demacia's Elite ranger Team. However the most important part of their lore that also reflects in their current (live) Kit, is HOW they became to be that Elite ranger Team in the first place. They were send out to hunt down a Noxian Assassin - this simple line already says SO much about what Quinn & Valor are! A simple marksman does NOT hunt down Assassins, it's pretty much the reverse as Marksmen are often the Primary Target of Assassins - however not so much with Quinn & Valor! Let's head on: The assassin they were supposed to track down and "take care off" was Talon "The Blade's Shadow"; orders from the King! Now; many of us Quinn&Valor players have already realized where this is headed: Both in the Lore and In the SR Quinn&Valor succeed in taking out Talon - thus becoming part of Demacia's Elite, as the best Ranger Team of Demacia's Realm, send out for all those deadly missions that no other scout can possibly carry out effectively- as a Team. In the Summoner's Rift, Quinn&Valor's kit effectively denies assassins such as Zed, Talon, Rengar, Yi and even Anti-carries such as Irelia who are designed to be both tanky and still destroy carries - What people seem to miss is what this means for Quinn&Valor: As much as Irelia becomes an "Anti-carry" by both being able to simply tank and thus evade the carries but aswell having the potential of shredding them or better said "Bursting" them down; Quinn&Valor are to be considered "Anti-Assassins" both being able to deny a lot of damage from assassin's such as Talon / Zed by Blinding them and using Vault to effectively deny them their much needed burst combo, AND also being able to turn the tables and instead efficiently taking out Talon, Zed and the likes by using their kit properly. Those of you who might not believe this have probably either never played Quinn&Valor vs a Talon / Zed of equal skill level and felt their dispair as they noticed that Quinn&Valor have all the tools needed to deny them their snowball and instead snowball off of them if played correctly.

Quinn's qoutes revolve around Valor Blinding the enemies, their lore says "The pair's unbreakable bond is deadly on the battlefield, leaving opponents blind and riddled with arrows long before they realize who they're fighting: not one, but two Demacian legends." so no one can really tell me that her lore and the new kit designed / her changes actually FIT that lore, because all of her Core Identity as an "Anti-Assassin" has been effectively taken out - now instead of Tracking down Talon, she would probably be taken out by him instead, never even accomplishing her Dream or reaching Demacia's Elite with Valor by her side, as he is effectively denied to fight for Quinn. Do they want to rewrite her whole lore? They might aswell create a new Champion and Leave Quinn&Valor be in that case; I can even provide you an idea to effectively using the new "Glider" ultimate: A Piltover Developer the likes of Jayce or Heimerdinger builds a glider that allows him to glide as if he had wings - build a kit around that, there you go. Makes sense doesn't it?

About the Blind being a part of their Kit that should not be removed, I can only say that the Lore and her Quotes already emphasize this as being CORE to what Quinn&Valor are and are MEANT TO DO during the game. If players are not able to achieve this in the game, it is NOT due to her having a "bad kit" or not being viable, or not having a defined and unique role in the game - all of that is NOT TRUE as you can read up above, if you really pay attention and WANT to know what her true nature is you will find it right there! She is considered a bad pick in live because of how unreliable her Passive and her Vault are, effectively denying her a LOT of potential that would be there if it worked properly - even Imaqtpie said this one stream one day while playing Quinn, that the kit in itself is really good but the inconsistency and unreliability is the REAL ISSUE with it.

Let's move on to her kit: As a Tag Team - Demacia's Elite Ranger Team - they provide both high mobility and superior senses in the form of Valor, allowing to track and hunt down any enemy; this translates into the game with Valor being able to spot enemies through W "Heightened Senses"; now if someone really wanted to mantain Quinn&Valor's core identity he would probably start of working with this skill, since Valor can do so much more than just provide vision for 2 sec on a radius around Quinn - there is so much more that could be done with this. A very simple idea would be for her to be able to track enemies within a certain radius - AKA showing enemies on the map by their Icon when they move into a certain radius of activity (this would require W to have be a toggle ability that consumes mana while enabled, and that updates the position of spotted champions for example every full second) - why the map? Because Valor circles over them, Quinn sees this and can pinpoint it on the map: a very simple while not very exact way to gather information on your opponents. Simply fixing her passive like on PBE would already be a big step while not being a big change; but as we see Riot does not seem to like simple fixes.

Her Vault was the one ability that centered more on Quinn herself - not so much on Valor, it provided her an escape in tricky situations and a follow up in chases, while not being unbalanced. That is hard to achieve on a single spell and it was really on a good spot. However the way it displaced you in an inconsistent manner was a real issue, sometimes you would jump that wall, sometimse from the same spot you would not - we see that with the changes to Vault on PBE this was fixed: so if there is a way to fix it why not simply do so on live to see its effects?

Her Q centered more on Valor, a bird going for the eyes makes sense since Valor is just an eagle and not a phoenix - thus the Blind is in cohesion with her Lore. Everything else just doesn't make sense, Valor is not big enough to really knock you up or lift you up in the air. That's why her Ultimate as is right now doesn't make sense. If they do need to change it they Should definitely change it to Valor flying in front or besides Quinn "guiding" her to her target and Quinn sprinting for the duration. But the ability to fight as Valor feels far more rewarding and definitely makes more sense lore-wise and in the whole context of them being a Tag Team and not just Quinn - aided by Valor. They are a ranger TEAM, it's not just Quinn being a ranger with a random eagle. They share a Bond with each other, they fight WITH and FOR each other - that's what we love about Tag Team, and that's why it should be preserved.

My final words to wrap this up are that if you really want to rework Quinn preserving her true core, and her identity - then you should probably start by reading up on her lore and her background instead of just looking at her kit; and then start thinking about ways to improve this champion (if there are no bugfixes that would, you know, already fix most of it or at least the most inconsistent and bothering part of it) without having to tear Quinn&Valors lore apart just to make a new kit fit in, and without having to change EVERYTHING about her just to make one single spell fit. Because if a new Ult requires a whole new kit, that kit needs a new lore and background in order for the lore and background to fit with the new kit, and then you basically already have: A new Lore, a new Kit, and what this basically means is a new champ sharing only some visuals with Quinn&Valor which makes no sense whatsoever because the only thing still separating this from a new champ is a new Visual Model :'D

19 Comments

EedatNov 1, 20155 votes

I am so tired of the "this does not reflect their core identity". Quinn's core identity before the rework was ranged ADC + Melee Assassin. What? How does that make any sort of sense what so ever? It didn't. This happens with every single rework. Quinns new kit makes way more sense than her old one.

Big LincolnNov 1, 20152 votes

nidalee is a ranged siege mage and a melee assassin

i dont see the issue

ModWulf HelhammerNov 2, 20152 votes

All of the form switchers have a duel identity: Jayce, Nidalee, and Gnar are all poke orientated in ranged form, then are assassin/burst all ins when they go melee. How is this acceptable on them, but not on Quinn?

Reaper ReviewNov 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

All of the form switchers have a duel identity: Jayce, Nidalee, and Gnar are all poke orientated in ranged form, then are assassin/burst all ins when they go melee. How is this acceptable on them, but not on Quinn?

Quinn's current ult isn't a form-switcher in the same vein as those. It's more like a steroid if anything, due to its extremely high CD. It's almost like Yi's ult, in a way, granting huge bonuses to AS and MS.

BiPolar VayneNov 3, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Naut A Liss,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sMxsqErI,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2015-11-02T05:09:35.510+0000)

Quinn's current ult isn't a form-switcher in the same vein as those. It's more like a steroid if anything, due to its extremely high CD. It's almost like Yi's ult, in a way, granting huge bonuses to AS and MS.

While this is true, it still doesn't deny that Valor played a highly valued role in the game up until now amongst everyone who played Quinn. Without that - Quinn is no longer the Champ she used to be, nor anything close to it. It was that Duality that made us pick Quinn over other champs in the first place. Unlike Zed she doesn't become useless when the Ult goes on CD. Zed literally has to get out as fast as he can after bursting down his target or he's just gonna get shredded, he can barely provide anything else after bursting his single target.

NarsicusNov 2, 20151 votes

That is like calling morgana a melee mage because her ultimate requires her to move in, or Irelia a Fighter/ADC because her ult is ranged. If you take away Irelia's ultimate she doesn't lose part of her ADC identity, she never had it.

The difference between other form switchers is that they consistently use both forms as part of their identity, they need both constantly and have access to both at all points in the game. Quinn's is more akin to a steroid than anything else, people don't use it to 'become' a melee assassin they use it to gain a ton of attack and move speed.

ModWulf HelhammerNov 2, 20152 votes

How are Morgana and Irelia's ults in any way comparable to a form switcher?

And while yes, a large part of tag team is the steroids, the other half of it is the ability to single out a lone target and make them regret leaving the base, flying up to them and being able to nigh instantly delete them

BiPolar VayneNov 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That is like calling morgana a melee mage because her ultimate requires her to move in, or Irelia a Fighter/ADC because her ult is ranged. If you take away Irelia's ultimate she doesn't lose part of her ADC identity, she never had it.

The difference between other form switchers is that they consistently use both forms as part of their identity, they need both constantly and have access to both at all points in the game. Quinn's is more akin to a steroid than anything else, people don't use it to 'become' a melee assassin they use it to gain a ton of attack and move speed.

Did you even read what I wrote? Irelia is an Anti-Carry, everyone knows that - she can simply tank you all day long or burst your carries down in an instant; that's not "fair" and "doesnt make sense" either, however it exists and no one is going to delete Irelia because of it. It's just her role to be like that.

I mean it's pretty obvious that you seem to have a rather lacking understanding of the game by the way you try to define champions roles (dont be offended by this, not everyone has a real good understanding, I don't know everything good either and other people often know more than I do). You probably haven't even ever played Quinn at a decent level of skill - and yet here you are trying to deny a whole group of people who have really indepth knowledge on both the game overall and Quinn as a champ.

I really wouldn't do that - not unless I wanted a ton of downvotes and don't even care about making sense that is.

BiPolar VayneNov 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I am so tired of the "this does not reflect their core identity". Quinn's core identity before the rework was ranged ADC + Melee Assassin. What? How does that make any sort of sense what so ever? It didn't. This happens with every single rework. Quinns new kit makes way more sense than her old one.

I'm so tired of people who don't even play a champion in its most efficient way - or even AT ALL, more than a few games on their free week - and then try to comment on things like these. How can you deny that something is the core of a champion when it is both lore-wise and gameplay-wise the most efficient, and reliable way to play the champion?

May I remind you that Vayne is an ADC and yet her Secondary Role is "Assassin" too? Or would you deny that Vayne's an Assassin? What people like you fail to see is the duality of a Champion that adds variety to the game: Quinn is not just "Quinn" - she is "Quinn AND Valor" it's a DUAL Champion composed by two entities - as much as you can't remove Wolf from Lamb in Kindred without making it a whole different champion you can't remove Valor and his ability to cripple enemies from Quinn and expect that to remain the same Champion.

Removing Valor and it's crippling abilities from Quinn's overall Champion concept is like Removing Stealth and Poison from Twitch, or Stealth and True Damage from Vayne; or Removing Wolf and an AoE immunity from Kindred, or remove the Yeti with his Frostballs from Nunu - it destroys the whole concept of the champion.

Now - I understand that Riot doesn't want a champion to be "Underplayed" but with Quinn & Valor they definitely missunderstood WHY they were underplayed in the first place: If a Pro-Player who mains AD Carries (ya'll know Imaqtpie I guess?) says that she is a bad pick because of the unreliability in her kit due to the many bugs that deny her a lot of potential (Talking Vault and Passive here - since those are the main source of unreliable power in her Kit) - then how do you tell me now that you know better? I played 450+ Games on Quinn mantaining a 10/5/5 kda ratio and a 55% winrate - and you want to tell me I don't know this champion without ever decently playing it yourself?

Get your shit together mate, and accept that just because you like the New CHAMPION better than an existing one, the existing one has to be deleted in order for a new Champion to take its spot.

Drunk TsundereNov 1, 20152 votes

Quinn is still going to go mid lane and assassinate people. She's still going to play the exact same. She's always been a marksman, but also an assassin. And just because she is a Marksman during lane phase doesn't necessarily mean that she HAS to go bot lane. I love the Quinn changes and think that they couldn't have done it better.

ModWulf HelhammerNov 2, 20152 votes

How about keeping the core aspects of the champion's kit? Do you think that would have worked better? Additionally, her burst and roaming had more impact with her current live version, as right now, the only time you can actually do anything with the new ult is when you are far ahead, and if you fall behind a bit, then it's a glorified boots of mobility.

Pigeonholing Quinn into one lane, making it impossible for her to play played in another manner is not a healthy rework. And that is exactly what Repertoir has done with these.

Drunk TsundereNov 2, 20151 votes

They DID keep the core aspects of her kit. She is a Marksman in Quinn form, and an assassin with Valor. You can swap interchangeably now, with a 0 second cooldown. If anything they solidified her identity MORE, as a Marksman/Assassin.

She is a stronger assassin than she used to be, due to her higher burst. She is also a better Marksman than she used to be due to the increased safety from her E. The only thing that got worse about her is her Q doesn't blind so she has a harder time dueling auto attackers.

Also bot lane Quinn was never GOOD, but if you enjoyed playing it, you still can play it. It's going to be the exact same as what it used to be, minus the blind. But the buffs everywhere else in her kit and all of the bug fixes/QOL changes more than make up for it.

ModWulf HelhammerNov 2, 20152 votes

The things that made her able to be bot lane are gone: the blind and the fast assassination in tag team. The bugs are still there, and they have made only 1 QoL fix, on her E And yes, bot lane Quinn was just as good as any other lane.

How are you an assassin with Valor when he is literally a taxi now? He does nothing.

BiPolar VayneNov 3, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Support GG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sMxsqErI,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-11-02T14:14:33.927+0000)

They DID keep the core aspects of her kit. She is a Marksman in Quinn form, and an assassin with Valor. You can swap interchangeably now, with a 0 second cooldown. If anything they solidified her identity MORE, as a Marksman/Assassin.

She is a stronger assassin than she used to be, due to her higher burst. She is also a better Marksman than she used to be due to the increased safety from her E. The only thing that got worse about her is her Q doesn't blind so she has a harder time dueling auto attackers.

Also bot lane Quinn was never GOOD, but if you enjoyed playing it, you still can play it. It's going to be the exact same as what it used to be, minus the blind. But the buffs everywhere else in her kit and all of the bug fixes/QOL changes more than make up for it.

How is she anything close to what she used to be when she cant even deny a freaking Talon/Zed/Yi/Rengar anymore? An assassin you say - with what burst? Her Passive is just as strong as it is now on live - just a little bit more reliable, and the things that helped her stay alive like the blind and a good slow have been either removed completely (Blind) or lessened (slow on Vault), you cleary don't understand that just moving faster with E doesn't add any kind of safety: AoE CC which was her problem with Vault is STILL gonna hit, and with the speed up on Vault it makes it even harder to dodge anything with the new Vault. You could avoid a Thresh with the current Vault timing it right, the new Vault is so fast that even if you time it perfectly the Hooks still gonna be sitting there when you bounce back - you'll definitely get caught now where you wouldn't have been before.

She is NOT an assassin anymore, because she can't burst people down anymore, all Assassins in the game have a combo that allows them to almost OS a single target:

Zed's Deathmark in combination with well aimed Shurikens, Botrk, Ignite and if needed one or two AA's in between.
Talon's Rake into Cutthroat + Noxian Diplomacy and either opening or escaping with Shadow Assault - don't even need Botrk in most cases due to the high dmg amplification and bleeding effect + Ignite.
Le Blanc's Q > E > W > R + ignite if the targets not dead yet, no need for active items.

I could make the list longer but that's not really necessary because this depicts the point good enough: Just having good sustained damage due to more consistent damage output from her Passive doesn't make her "burst" anyone. It's called having high DPS, just that her's forces her to get too close to her targets specially if she's supposed to be played in the midlane now. Also the thing that made Quinn bot viable in the first place WAS her blind, she will be completely useless in botlane now.

You obviously haven't played Quinn enough to even get close to an efficient playstyle on live - so in all honesty I doubt you can reliably tell me that "the buffs everywhere else in her kit and all of the bug fixes/QOL changes more than make up for it." because that's bullshit for everyone who's played Quinn more than just on the free rotation.

BiPolar VayneNov 3, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Support GG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sMxsqErI,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-11-01T20:23:29.643+0000)

Quinn is still going to go mid lane and assassinate people. She's still going to play the exact same. She's always been a marksman, but also an assassin. And just because she is a Marksman during lane phase doesn't necessarily mean that she HAS to go bot lane. I love the Quinn changes and think that they couldn't have done it better.

You do realize she was mostly played Top? k. With that out of the way, she's definitely not going to play even CLOSE to what you used to play her in live, you obviously haven't even played her anything close to decently in live so I understand why you missjudge her and the changes made to her. I mean I probably wouldn't be able to really argue with a possible rework to let's say Urgot, Taric, Lee Sin, or Jarvan because I don't play those champions consistently or even close to often enough to fully understand their kit and the possiblities that open up with having an indepth knowledge of the champion in itself.

You Love the Quinn changes because you were unable to get any decent results with the Live Quinn, and the new champion that is now on the PBE is more "apealable" for new players since there is close to now outplay potential or skilled moves to make once you master the champ. It has become all about spamming your Passive Procs, Using Vault to get some distance (if you get to cast it before being blow up) and use your Q to "execute" someone - that's if it's enough damage... - and her ult is just an inbuild Mobility boot with a boost, something that everyone can already buy on live in a little weaker fashion.

Droppin DymesNov 1, 20152 votes

I agree with op... if others think she still fits an assassin type .... how does she do that without some sort of incapacitating skill like her old Q or her burst execution from her old R? Her dueling potential is way down without her blind as well ..... I really don't think she is a viable counter to Vayne anymore without it.

BiPolar VayneNov 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I agree with op... if others think she still fits an assassin type .... how does she do that without some sort of incapacitating skill like her old Q or her burst execution from her old R? Her dueling potential is way down without her blind as well ..... I really don't think she is a viable counter to Vayne anymore without it.

She can't fight a Vayne at ALL anymore without the blind - and she's far from even being a threat to her in the new version.