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New Champs: Skill-Based Meta or just Better Tech?

MrBuffington··4 votes·768 views

Heyo,

So, I'm sure you are, as I am, excited about Azir, but, since I've started playing, I've been noticing a tendency towards more mechanically intensive new champions. There have been calls from many community members, citing things like the mobility creep, phasing out older champions, and directing the game's focus from more focused on raw stats winning fights, to mechanical outplays and mobility winning fights. Many of the recent champions (Lucian, Yasuo, Gnar, Braum, arguably Jinx with her passive, and now Azir, for example) have some sort of dash or repositioning ability, and are more mechanically difficult to play than many older, more classic champions. Champions like Vel'koz, despite less movement ability, are completely reliant on skillshots, which allow for more room for outplay potential, and skill to win out over raw stats.

Or, is the recent trend not so much to favor a skill-based meta, and more just a consequence that Riot is getting better at what they're doing? It's hard to deny that every recent champion and VU just looks better, all the tech from making Vel'Koz' tentacles move, etc. It's common for programmers to build up a repertoire/portfolio of past projects that they can reference/use in future work (why try to solve the same problem twice?), so the fact that we are seeing increased emphasis on dashes and skillshots just a consequence of all the years of compounded technology giving rise to new combinations of champions?

Or is it a combination of both? Thoughts?

19 Comments

Omnipherious3 votes

Definitely both.

Think of it this way, Riot loves the idea of new / interesting mechanics or character types. In a lot of cases, you might have a really cool idea for an ability or a gameplay pattern, but you are limited by what actually can be done in the game for tech reasons. So you go ahead and make the tech so it becomes feasible. Suddenly, some other concept that required similar tech is also feasible. This is most apparent with Yasuo who heralded the projectile blocking and the unique target marker (for Yasuo dashes, Udyr stuns).

Second part we need to realize is, you don't create a new champion to compete with older champions. You create them to be competitive with the new ones. As such, they are more likely to follow the trends of more recent champions.

Upcoming - Azir: Medium-long range, reposition, free stats from passive, ?pseudo-terrain?, CC, new minion paradigm, new sieging paradigm Recent - Gnar: Medium range melee/Medium ranged form + long skillshot, 3-hit proc w/ opposing damage type, reposition, CC, free stats from passive, unique resource and transform paradigm Previousx1 - Braum: Medium skillshot melee, reposition, CC, ally/self-steroid (DEF, MS), projectile block, team combo proc Previousx2 - Vel'koz: Statistically identical to Brand (except AD gain), long range skillshots, 3-hit proc, true damage, unique? skillshot type Previousx3 - Yasuo: Short-medium skillshot melee, CC, reposition, projectile block, free stats passive, self-steroid (ArPen), unique resource Previousx4 - Jinx: Medium-long range, reposition, self-steroid (AS), soft-reset (MS), CC, global + execute Previousx5 - Lucian: Short-medium range, reposition, self-steroid (MS), unique pseudo-AS replacement passive

Looking at these releases, clearly Riot has gotten better at creating fun/unique experiences. You also cannot deny that they are more comfortable with giving out power to classes they seem to think need it. Out of the recent release, Vel'koz was most underwhelming for the community at large and coincidentally, has the least tools of the lot. While Vel'koz is unique thematically, he doesn't display unique strength; or at least not overtly.

You know who the last vanilla ranged AD was? Graves, October 2011. Even he has reposition, unique CC + vision denial, free stats from passive, self-steroid. Varus came after with CC, healing reduct, longer range, 3-hit proc w/ opposing damage type. Draven after that with CC, self-steroid, global, AA enhance, gold+. Quinn was the most recent before Lucian and she has blind, CC, reposition, self-steroid, AA enhance, vision, execute.

I'm sure we'll continue to see interesting new champions. Pretty sure Riot's goal is to make every champion take skill, they just need to be a little more reserved with the tools they hand out.

MrBuffington1 votes

I agree with everything you said, I just wanted to say that Riot has mentioned, upon the release of Vel'Koz, that they don't build champions to fit any particular meta. I personally feel like it is just the manifestation of all the cool new tech they have, creating new and interesting champions to fill new niches, but I wanted to mention the mobility creep and oppressive meta game since there's so much talk about it recently, and it's surprising how many of the new champions are incredibly popular at the moment (Braum and Yasuo were immediate hits, Jinx and Lucian took a bit of time but are very common as well).

Omnipherious1 votes

Nah, I didn't mean to suggest that Vel'koz is bad. He's just not as popular as the other releases. It is mere coincidence that he also seems to have fewer tools in comparison. I don't think Riot ever intended for mobility or power creep to happen; it is/was just a consequence.

Newer champions tend to follow the paradigm - fun/interesting first, balance after. This is different to say, Darius and Lee, who arguably were designed with power/tools as priority.

I think it is a good approach to make sure a champion is going to be fun but I do think it is important that champion designers are at least advised a bit more since newer releases tend to have an extra something; these extras being unnecessary in some cases.

MrBuffington1 votes

Oh, I understood what you meant; I've learned first-hand how much damage a laser from even support Vel'Koz can do. He just has a niche that doesn't fit in the meta; he's immobile and doesn't have the waveclear that say, Xerath or Ziggs do. He's a lot like Brand; a strong champion that does truck-loads of damage, but just doesn't fit in that top 1% of the meta currently (or something) :D

67chrome1 votes

so the fact that we are seeing increased emphasis on dashes and skillshots just a consequence of all the years of compounded technology giving rise to new combinations of champions?

Or is it a combination of both? Thoughts?

I'm not sure skillshots and dashes are being seen more.

They're seen on new, slick champions, and have fancier mechanics just due to Riot's talent getting better - but it doesn't feel like Riot is emphasizing mobility more than they have prevoiously.

If you look at the mobility of a given champion, it's usually pretty similar to the mobility of other champions of that same archetype - going all the way back to the original 40 champions.

I mean - Kassadin and Shaco are assassins LoL started out with. Leaping over walls and turning invisible at the same time is pretty powerful in terms of mobility. If the leap itself didn't do the job of closing or widening a gap - you've got stealth as a backup. Yasou fullfills the same ultimate roll as Master Yi as well. I'm not sure I'd call Yasou more mobile - sure he can dash to every minion in a wave by spamming E, but Yi can do the same thing by pressing a single button. And Yi can also run away at super-speeds, Yasou is forward mobility alone.

Concerning skillshots, Ashe is one of the original 40 champions as well, loads of skill in timing that ult right. Janna is as well - a solid Tornado isn't the easiest thing to land, neither is a proper knockback. Alistar, Anivia, and Twisted Fate are all champions LoL Launched with as well. Ezreal was something like the 43rd champion, and he's nothing but skillshots.

Or is it a combination of both? Thoughts?

I'm pretty sure they aren't more mobile or skill reliant.

they just look more exciting, greater interest is being taken in them, which makes there strengths and tactical uses all the more obvious.

If you watch the LCS or pro matches though, a lot of the champions played, and played skillfully, are almost completely random based on their date of release. Some newer champions like Zed are taking center stage - but some mid-release champions like Ahir and Orianna are as well, and some original releases like Zilean.

MrBuffington1 votes

I wasn't trying to say that only modern champions are being played, again this isn't a thread where I'm secretly pushing Riot's ulterior motive of the ominous mobility creep (I was trying to create a more balanced discussion). I was trying to bring up what I see to be a growing trend in new champions that have more skill shots and dash abilities; you don't see as many champions like Zilean or Ryze being made anymore, champions that don't rely on dashes or skill shots to be played well, even though they can be mechanically challenging and rewarding to play at all levels of play. Of course there are skillshot and dash champions that were introduced early on, but they were released along side champions with more targeted abilities, etc. where now most champions seem to only have skill shots or dashes. Even when Riot teased a top laner (Gnar), I expected something of a more traditional, simpler, bruiser type of top laner, along the lines of Garen, Olaf, Jax, etc. and instead Gnar is a mobile ranged top laner with a lot of skill shots and AoE abilities.

I saw two potential reasons for this (there could be more):

  1. I've seen a lot of threads suggesting that less mobile or less skillshot based champions are falling out of favor, making the game more skill based, rather than based on raw stats as it (presumably) used to be.
  2. Riot is developing more tech as they make champions, so they're incorporating more of that into newer champions, especially since more of the older champions have already (more or less) exhausted/filled the niche of having mechanically simpler champions. There's less need for point-and-click abilities like Ryze has, and he and other champions fill that niche already, so they're moving on and exploring other options for champions.
67chrome1 votes

I can sort of see where you're coming from, though I think the common trend of the feel you're describing is due to 2 main things:

  1. Riot's designers are more skilled now, so there designs generally feel better and generally don't fall into the same pitfalls and traps. With mobile assassin, they can excel with a champion like Zed with some pretty cool mobility that fits the tactical purposes it needs to, rather than a pretty boring mobility in Kassadin that's overbearing in some places it shouldn't be.

  2. A lot of old champions recognized as mistakes are weighing down the average concerning the old vs. new feel. Ryze being all point-click isn't terribly exciting, though the skillshots, rotation, and unique qualities Anivia has is still pretty solid by new champ standards.

So - you could make a solid case for it.

That said - Rengar is a newer champion, and release Rengar was all kinds of awkward. He started getting played AP (Like Tryndamere and Shaco and Yi), and generally came with all the most annoying pieces of kits like LeBlanc, Shaco, Evelynn, Yi, Tryndamere, and Sion. Point-click CC, manaless, mega in-lane sustain, 100%-->0% burst potential with no warning, stealth, useless when behind, horrible team-fighting potential, pushed to be on back-door duty 24/7. Even had an exclusive and optional snowball item - which is probably the most hated part of Viktor's kit.

I question if Riot is making progress when I recall Rengar. Very much the Ryze/Zilean kind of design where he's heavily reliant on point-click and a little clunky and awkward.

Concerning the Jax/Olaf/Garen type of bruiser - Riot hasn't released a tanky derp like those guys in a while. Darius, Volibear, Rumble, and re-worked Trundle I think are the most recent - all over a year old now. Maybe you could count Zac as one instead of a tank.

The general pattern I've noticed with that particular archetype is there most obvious weakness is being fairly slow - usually a %MS boost is their mobility rather than a dash or jump. Tying into their lack of mobility, they tend to have pretty minimal range as well - but destroy anything that gets to close fairly convincingly. Which mostly leaves them without dashes and skillshots.

Maybe it's due to Riot re-thinking what it means to be a fighter - Jax is one of the only original fighter that falls under the fighter/assassin category, where there is a pretty solid selection of fighter/tanks from release. Which does tend to mean more skillshot/dash champions like Diana.

MrBuffington1 votes

I don't know if champions like Ryze are considered mistakes; they're meant to be beginner champions (that being said, Ryze is pretty ridiculous as a champion; he's a hyper carry that is also an off-tank. Still, I don't know if he'll be seriously changed since he's the CEO's champion, lol). As a side note, I actually think Ryze is a lot of fun to play.

I don't know what Rengar was like upon release; I only recently started seeing/playing him. I do find him fun, though he is very powerful at the moment. From what I can tell from your post, reworked Rengar seems a bit better (he could still probably use some tweaks); he no longer has targeted CC (it's a skillshot).

Regardless, Rengar is still only one champion; generally as a trend, it seems like Riot is making more interesting champions and healthier champions (Gnar wasn't as broken-OP-beyond-belief as some other champions upon release; he has a pretty low win rate, actually).

That's basically the concern that I was talking about; whether Riot is changing up the bruiser/fighter archetype in light of the mobility creep, or if it's just a result of better tech.

Teridax681 votes

I think it's both. On one hand, Riot's been working on multiple tech overhauls for a very long time, and we're seeing bits of the front end of it just now (the Summoner's Rift update, the new client/patcher look, previous changes to visuals and audio, champion tech, etc.), and on the other several Rioters have voiced their desire to change certain underlying class characteristics a bit for a long time. Yasuo was a heavily experimental take on how to implement melee ADCs through active/situational defenses rather than free sustain/tankiness, and Azir looks like a mage who's legitimately dependent on defensive stats rather than situational actives (Riot's trying to wean mages off of item 3157's active and more towards "proper" defenses when needed).

I also think the main reason we're seeing most recent champions as focused on skill rather than raw stats is because the main design M.O. was to put tons of power through stats instead of abilities in the case of pretty much all of Season 2's fighters. There are a lot of early champions who have similar outplay potential (Karthus and Anivia , for example), and quite a few hyper-mobile champions (MasterYi , Tristana , Kassadin ...), but Season 2 and even early Season 3 introduced a lot of champions with more stat-based than mechanic-based power. With League's more recent tech, and Riot's experience from past seasons, there are a lot more ways to give champions power in interesting ways, along with plans to redistribute the power of existing champions towards more active play.

MrBuffington1 votes

I didn't realize they're weaning mages off zhonyas, that's interesting. Thanks for the response

Lneacx1 votes

I think more skill-intensive champions are coming out because all the simple, basic designs have already been done.

gubigubi1 votes

It is more than likely a couple of things.

  1. Being they have A LOT of champions and a new champion has to have special things or else it will fit something another champion already does.
  2. They have better tech like you said and more experience which can lead to more interesting well polished kits.
  3. They want to give all the champions weakness and strength that can be taken advantage of and not characters you get into a fight and roll on the keyboard to what ever spells are coming off cd.

What ever is going on though this new champion looks finger licken good and I cant wait to try and play him in mid/top and maybe even support.

MrBuffington1 votes

I'm super excited for him too, thanks for the input!

ploki1221 votes

Yes, we're entering a skill-based metas, where better players get better results. I know it's amazing to design champions around that revolutionary priciple, but it's a gamble they're ready to shoulder and they are confident will pay off in the long run. Ideally, we'll also enter an interactive meta right after where players will take decisions not only based on themselves, but also their environment (creeps, towers, jungle... even maybe players).

MrBuffington1 votes

Thanks for the input!

Cloud Potato1 votes

Definitely skill-based meta. Riot wants more games to be decided by who played better rather than who countered who. The new tech could be used for crazy new stuff instead, but Riot has stated many times that new for the sake of new is not something good for the game, and instead something new should fit in the game as well. While the two things are closely related skill is the primary reason, whereas the tech is a means to that end.

MrBuffington2 votes

Thank you for the response!

The5lacker1 votes

Riot's getting better at what they do, and obviously older champions are going to be left behind because they aren't well designed. We wouldn't expect or hope for Riot to get WORSE, would we?

Honestly, though, I think they just need to finish League and start something new. Keep it to minor balance tweaks but develop no new content and work on something that doesn't have nearly four years of terrible design choices dragging along behind it like the world's worst umbilical cord.

MrBuffington1 votes

I think they are trying to go back and readjust previous decisions to make them fit better with the current game. I do owner sometime how large the champion pool is going to be at the end of it, though I do like them adding more content

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