Am I the only one... (Ekko thread)

1 800 MID LANE·Jun 3, 2015·16 votes·1,779 views

...who thinks a lot of the suggested nerfs to Ekko are just ridiculous? Granted, he's definitely too strong for his utility, but I personally think that some of the damage reduction pleas for his kit are rather over the top. Damage needs to be reduced somewhere, but I think that all the utility is what would make him fun to play. (I don't own him and have never played him, so please don't tell me I just don't want him nerfed because I can't play without him.)

Regardless, I think LeBlanc is a bigger threat, anyways.

47 Comments

Celeste BenalJun 3, 20158 votes

At no point have I felt Ekko needed a nerf to his E.

1 800 MID LANEJun 3, 20152 votes

No, but a lot have and it seems like the people who don't think that his E needs a nerf are the minority.

junglerboy16Jun 3, 20153 votes

I think the reason people wanted his E damage nerfed in particular is that it is supposed to be a mobility and repositioning tool, not a damage nuke. With the Luden's+Lich bane build everyone is doing on him, his E alone was enough to chunk you for a solid 800 damage, which certainly is a lot for having the ability to juke twice and gapclose 750 range partly as a blink.

Personally, I would rather they changed his ult to some sort of charge system with drastically reduced healing and damage per charge, but totaling about the same amount, to better match the way the teaser and the comic portray his time travel capabilities. that might end up being a buff or a nerf in the end, but for the sake of how he feels, I think it would be a big plus.

SerevasJun 3, 20151 votes

I actually like the charge idea.

ZavernJun 3, 20151 votes

I personally don't believe a skill with a Lichbane proc should ever hit near or over 1,000.

Aych PiiJun 3, 20153 votes

That .2 AP Ratio too stronk.

But really, it's no stronger than any other champion in the game buying a lichbane and some AP and casting a spell and then auto attacking.

Mandang0Jun 3, 20157 votes

Here's an earnest question: What's Ekko's weakness supposed to be?

I don't want to compare his mobility/burst to LB's, because Ekko has more utility. I don't want to compare his utility/burst to Veigar's, because Ekko has more mobility.

I think the more important question to ask is, for all the strengths Ekko gets in his kit, where are his weaknesses? That's the part that feels unfair to me - he's good at bursting, good at escaping, good at zone denial, good at gapclosing... and it still feels like they just tacked on a heal and a shield on top of that.

imNickJun 3, 20152 votes

He's squish and if he ever gets knocked up he is DEAD.

Mandang0Jun 3, 20155 votes

So is every single champion that builds glass. That and "they die if they get focused" aren't really weaknesses so much as acknowledging that the champion isn't actually immortal.

Actually, Ekko still handles getting knocked up better than most squish champs because of his ult.

AikidoLawnNinjaJun 3, 20154 votes

{quoted}

So is every single champion that builds glass. That and "they die if they get focused" aren't really weaknesses so much as acknowledging that the champion isn't actually immortal.

Actually, Ekko still handles getting knocked up better than most squish champs because of his ult.

Actually, Ekko can't cast his ult while knocked up/CC'd. I've had many frustrating deaths as Ekko where I'm hammering the R key and die anyway because I'm CC'd. It's not an instant free escape from anything, and smart players can easily catch him out and deny him the option of using it.

I think the damage on his ult is really the issue. Ekko's bursty-ness should come from his combos, not from a single button press. The fact that you can heal and burst at the same time and then clean up with your other skills is what makes Ekko feel oppressive.

My suggestion is to remove ALL damage from his ult, but allow it to be cast regardless of CC, so it's entirely an "oops" button. They can make up for this by adding a bit more damage to his other abilities.

Mandang0Jun 3, 20152 votes

I meant ulting after he's done being CC'ed. Hell, he'll heal more doing that anyway.

I'd just like to know what his niche is supposed to be before I talk about what should or shouldn't be nerfed. Is he supposed to burst? Is he supposed to brawl? Is he supposed to poke? Should he be utility-focused or damage-focused? I could just as easily argue for the damage on his ult to be nerfed as the heal on it - I just don't know which should be more core to his identity.

That's why I'm legitimately asking what his weakness should be. And more of a strengths/weaknesses type of a weakness than an itemization/build-based one (he didn't build durability, so he doesn't take damage well).

Z StatisticJun 3, 20153 votes

While almost every champion in the game can't ult while stunned, very very few can't ult while rooted. If you hit him with a Morg Q, you prevent him from ulting for 3 seconds.

His weakness should be that he dies or is useless when he uses or is forced to use his ult incorrectly or suboptimally, which is more or less the case. Perhaps some of his basic attack damage should be shifted over to his ability damage or his shield's AP ratio should be reduced, but really nothing major.

One thing that should be changed is vision of the destination for enemies. As it stands now, he can force you to make a choice of which path to take and the only thing that's keeping you alive is pure chance since the vision delay is way too short to react to.

Mat7itanJun 3, 20152 votes

His kit is very telegraphed and easy to avoid.

Urgonnalearn2dayJun 3, 20152 votes

Sadly people don't actually want to think when fighting him. People stand in his Q and don't realize that his E jump to target means he procs his passive then. He's also a solid counter for popular mid picks except Cassio (if she's still popular).

stealthfox94Jun 3, 20151 votes

He is vulnerable to stun's suppresses and silences, a bad ult can really screw you up, and his early game isn't the best.

xLyoJun 3, 20155 votes

assasins shouldnt have that much utility, thats all.

1 800 MID LANEJun 3, 20152 votes

I agree. Don't get me wrong, I really do. I just think that a lot of the nerf ideas floating around are just insane. I dunno. Maybe I'm over-thinking it.

NarasimhaJun 3, 20155 votes

Assassins should also have much more burst.

And if you think Ekko has burst, try playing Talon or Rengar sometime.

xLyoJun 3, 20153 votes

he does have high burst if played correctly.

NarasimhaJun 3, 20152 votes

Or in other words, if the opponent is stupid/unaware enough to get hit by his ult. In which case, they fully deserve it.

Lost In TimeJun 3, 20155 votes

He trades upfront damage for utility.

Riot is already nerfing his upfront E damage anyway. If you get hit by Q (twice), W or R, you most likely got outplayed.

Mat7itanJun 3, 20154 votes

Make the shield on his w gain ap ratio's and base stats as you level the skill, the slow on his passive really needs to be toned down (it's kind of insane) and the damage his ult could be reduced by just a little bit (not much). But I think he is a very balanced champion.

Tristanl0lJun 3, 20153 votes

this champions passive is a buffed version of Gnar's w. if his passive got nerfed I'd find him fair.

StrawberrycocoaJun 3, 20153 votes

Been playing a lot of Ekko since his release, he's crazy fun but definitely needs some sort of nerf.

My thing is though, I don't think his DAMAGE is what needs nerfed. He's an assassin, making you die is his job. And he doesn't do a 100-0 burst like a lot of assassins; his damage requires committing to a combo long enough to proc his passive and locking down escape efforts while he continues the assault. Ekko fights like a Bruiser; he kills by preventing escape long enough for his damage to add up.

What needs nerfed is his LOCKDOWN, not his damage. Specifically his Q's slow.

Ekko has three slowing mechanisms (Q, Passive, and W's slow field). The slow field is telegraphed and avoidable and his passive requires commitment to a full combo, so those two are fine.

His Q needs the slow drastically reduced or even removed. Ekko can utilize his other slows and E's repositioning power to ensure his targets get hit with Q both ways. Having a slow on Q when he also has two other skills that can slow people is overdoing it. I also think reducing his lockdown power will nerf his damage indirectly more effectively than reducing hard numbers will.

Especially if they are hitting his E, that doesn't need a damage nerf. It's his strongest all-in skill, it needs that damage.

LuggJun 3, 20153 votes

Ekko literally has everything in his kit. Burst damage, sustained damage, slows, stuns, escapes, heal, shield, mobility. There is no way a champ can have all of that and not be mega OP. You don't even need to see him in action, it's just common sense people.

VekknaJun 3, 20153 votes

I think Ekko would be a really well-balanced, fun champ to play as and against if his damage or scaling was nerfed heavily across the board. Keep all the mobility, heal, shield, etc. and he could really shine as a scout/poke support. Sort of a hybrid between Janna's scout mobility, Zilean's zone control, and Sona's poke. That seems fair.

On the other hand, we could look at other champs with his assassination potential and prune accordingly. To put him on par with the already-overloaded Riven, you could completely delete his global presence by putting range limits on his ulti along with deleting his heal.

To put him on par with the already too-mobile LeBlanc, you could delete both his heal and shield and make him actually squishy.

To put him on par with the already nigh-untargetable Fizz, you could delete his heal, shield, speed, and global presence.

To put him on par with Ahri, you could delete his global presence, his heal, his slow, his aoe size, his untargetability, and make everything a skill shot.

The point isn't that he's the best at everything, just that he's too good at too many things compared to far too many champs. His fundamental flaw is that in a mobility meta immobile champs are already struggling. Ekko has the mobility to play ball in the mobility meta while his skills completely hard-counter nearly anything that's moderately immobile.

Beyond that, his constant dashing and blinking obliterates the skill/reward balance of skillshots across a range of champs. Landing hits against Ekko is extremely difficult but he's less likely to be punished compared to similar squishy assassins hit by the same ability. A good example of this is a recent game where I laned against him on Cassio. Even if I hit him with a poison, he'd start jumping around so I'd get maybe 1 or 2 Es off before the poison wore off. If I was anywhere near him, he could dive me, catch me in his massive slow zone, and there was no way out of his ulti. Similar problem on Malzahar where he can jump out of W zone, shave time off the E timer, and break your ulti.

Right now Ekko's only real counters are a hard cc chain, GTFO, or remaining invulnerable. In other words, his counters are a bunch of toxic champs on the ban list, which is not good for the game.

Urgonnalearn2dayJun 3, 20151 votes

A fed LB, Akali, Fizz do the exact same thing as a fed Ekko. He honestly feels a lot like Akali... with more utility and less damage.

Occams RaiserJun 4, 20152 votes

The problem is, he does it when he is not fed.

VekknaJun 4, 20151 votes

The other problem is that even if he gets completely denied in lane he can fall back on his mobility and map presence to safely push vision and objectives in a way that other burst bruisers just can't.

Fiora, by comparison snowballs both ways. Ekko snowballs to power and stopgaps if he gets played around or sucks.

SerevasJun 3, 20152 votes

Most of the problem is people are too idiotic to dodge skillshots. There's proposed nerfs before Ekko even has a chance to settle in and people have any idea how to play against him.

I personally feel it's pretty dumb to propose nerfing a champion before they've been out for a full patch cycle. Let him settle in before you start cutting stuff off.

Not only that of all things to nerf his E is chosen, which is frankly his most underwhelming ability as is. If you're really going to nerf something, hit the passive on W, or the return damage on Q. I'm actually more for the return damage on Q, it's triple the AP ratio, and deals more base damage beyond rank 1.

That should help the people that don't know how to dodge skillshots.

1 800 MID LANEJun 3, 20153 votes

I can't agree with this more. The return damage on his Q is probably the worst part. His W is pretty easy to dodge, but the passive is almost overwhelming. E is strong, but hardly the most annoying thing in the game as I've seen some claim.

I think another issue with his Q is that it's so fast going out, but that's just a thing with any assassin, really. They will punish you hard for making mistakes like getting caught in minion waves.

SerevasJun 3, 20153 votes

Precisely, he does what he's supposed to do, and the nerfs are a knee-jerk reaction to the community rage. Just let the dust settle and we'll see in a week or two what everything looks like.

DrNovaJun 3, 20151 votes

His return Q is the easiest thing to dodge. All you h ave to do is step to the side. You get plenty of time.

SerevasJun 3, 20151 votes

And yet the majority of people complaining about how OP he is, let themselves give 2/3 stacks of his passive for free because they stand still and stare at the nifty animation for the skillshot. At least that's the experience I've had.

MrBuffingtonJun 3, 20152 votes

I personally think the passive damage is excessive, given the utility it offers, and how easily his basic combo (Q -> E) procs it. That's about it, really; I suppose the nerfs to his E on PBE (and the Luden's nerf) tackle the burst combo from a different direction, making that Q + E + Passive + Lich Bane + Luden's burst damage a bit more bearable, but his E doesn't have all that much damage to shave off in the first place (170 + 0.2AP on live servers, as oppose to 231 + 0.7 AP on his passive).

I think things will ease up with a few nerfs and also people learning how to play against him; the fact that you can bait him with his own spells (standing at the edge of the AoE of his W and R and tempting him to use it aggressively) is a bit of counterplay that not many champions offer, especially assassins.

A lot of nerf suggestions for champions, especially assassins, the community deems OP are usually pretty excessive (the request that they be deleted from the game is not uncommon). Riot's been pretty resistant to those suggestions (and the subsequent accusations of champion favoritism), much to the dismay of members of the community.

DeynaTaggerungJun 3, 20152 votes

I haven't played ekko but looking at gameplay and the numbers on his wiki I feel he has 2 unreasonable strengths. These strengths lie in the ridiculous 130% AP scaling on his ultimate, for comparison vergar has the same base numbers and 100% AP scaling. In the late game if his ult applies a third stack to his passive can hit for 2100 damage. I feel his ult would be better as a utility focused move, which heals more based on what was lost in the last 4 seconds. Also WHY DOES HIS W NEED A PASSIVE THAT DEALS % DAMAGE. Everyone hates zed for having it as his main passive, and that's only once every few seconds. Please just take that passive away, his w is great as it is with no passive.

ShaftyMegeeJun 3, 20152 votes

I think ekkos stun shouldn't be 2.25 seconds, that's it

RickDodgerJun 3, 20151 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/EEVQosac-ekko-vote

RaGaziel EldraJun 3, 20151 votes

Katarina and riven, rekted me in lane as ekko, and i did my best. I did ekko top against riven.

AbsoluteSadmanJun 3, 20151 votes

People are overblowing his power immensly.

Havent played against him, but i sincerly doubt his ult instagibs 5 tanks at full hp like is suggested

VekknaJun 3, 20152 votes

Is that the standard for being OP?

If you haven't played against him, you really just have no idea. I was pretty skeptical about all the whining until I had to lane against him as several diverse categories of champ and saw how utterly universal his kit can be.

AbsoluteSadmanJun 4, 20151 votes

Just played against him, even being like 7/2 he wasnt really my first concern. He only could burst me down if i stood in his ult like an idiot, otherwise hed hurt, but not enough to immediatly kill me.

Occams RaiserJun 4, 20151 votes

Well one game. I guess that is a good sample number.

AbsoluteSadmanJun 4, 20151 votes

In any other case against an assassin, id get instagibbed.

Zed/Kha/Lb/Talon/Fizz so on so on.

He doesnt have the raw burst it takes to instakill.

Occams RaiserJun 4, 20151 votes

Well said, Venkna. Mic drop this fool.

The LovelessJun 3, 20151 votes

I'm just glad most of his skills cost mana. I don't mind him and don't think he needs to be changed, but most people have really poor mechanics and basically stand still when trading.