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@riot We need to have a discussion on Sivir, "Urgot's Mistress"

103percent·10/10/2014, 7:58:33 AM·6 votes·1,872 views

*-- tl;dr Sivir is currently in the dumpster. So I'd like to start a discussion on what can be done to make her into an actual carry. No, she doesn't have to be/isn't a hyper-carry like trist/kog/vayne; but she needs scaling and she needs some kind of **REAL **steroid. Also, huge mana issues.

edit: I mean look, even the hardcore Sivir mains seem to be abandoning her because she just doesn't provide anything anymore: http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/37900634. She isn't a lane bully, she has no power spike, and she isn't a hypercarry. She has no purpose after you went through and nerfed every single one of her abilities and left her to die (right after "reworking" her, again). *--

It's been a while since the rework, the train of nerfs, and the subsequent dismissal of Sivir from league once again. She literally got reworked, finally saw a little bit of play competitively (still not to the level of trist or lucian is now) and immediately got put in the dumpster by Riot with nerfs to every single one of her abilities AND her passive. All for the sole reason of "soloQ" performance, regardless of all the other champs in soloQ that keep an above 53-4% win rate (rammus, ammumu, fiddle, etc). Honestly, most of the nerfs weren't even warranted and her kit still is in need of work.

In terms of tier-lists most players put her bottom tier by urgot, and for good reason. With the exception of urgot she is the only ADC that has literally zero scaling. She has no steroids, she has no flashy mobility spells, she has nothing that actually helps her carry and is only as strong as the items she can purchase. Even among the "utility" ADCs (Sivir, Ashe, Varus) she ranks lowest. Ashe (arguably) gets the slight edge because of the guaranteed crits from her passive, and varus is the clear winner between the 3 with free AS on kills/assists and %health.

Pre-rework she actually had a pretty decent kit. She got free dmg on her W (known as scaling), and an AS steroid on her ult. You took both away, gave her a terrible passive on her ult and completely wrecked her AS/lvl for it. All the while champs like kog, trist (who up until last patch had 4% AS/lvl AND an 80% AS steroid), graves, twitch, MF, ez, and draven get both a MUCH better AS steroid (an actual steroid, not a 2 attack boost) while having on avg double her AS/lvl.

What this does is force her into an "AD Caster" role. Her AAs don't do enough damage, she has no steroids, she has no scaling, and so she is forced to use her abilities to do real damage to the enemy team. But she also has some of the highest mana costs out of the ADCs and only middle-tier mana base stats. Leading to a very real mana problem that is felt from lvl 1 all the way to lvl 18. The rise of the IE rush meta has only made things worse for her.

Problems

  1. Mana: Sivir's mana costs need to be tweaked lower. For comparison, Sivir's Q does 25+.7atk(attack) at lvl 1 for 70 mana. Cait gets 20 +1.3atk for 50 mana, corki gets 80+.5 bAtk (bonus attack) for 60 mana, ez gets 35+1.0atk for 28, varus gets 10+1.0atk for 65 mana (10+1.6 max), lucian gets 80+.6bAtk for 50 mana, and graves gets 60+.8atk for 60 mana (102+1.36atk max!). So she has the basically the least damaging spell for the most mana of any ADC. This was fine back when her Q actually did damage lvl 1 but your nerfed the damage and forgot to reduce the mana costs. Furthermore, her W uses 60 mana and the use of both of them cost 130 mana for a champ who only has 300 mana level 2. And yet she is considered an "AD caster"; I don't know any other casters that go OOM after 2 rotations of their spells.

And on a final note here: Forcing sivir to use her E to "take more risks to keep using her abilities" is frankly, bullshit. What other ADC (or champion period) is forced to use their one escape/peel/disengage spell to "keep using their abilities". No one, that's who. Literally every other ADC gets an offensive advantage (damage, a slow, heal debuff, stun, etc) when they use their escape/peel/disengage spell aggressively. Sivir, sivir gets some mana back.

  1. Scaling: Unlike most other ADCs she has no ability in her kit that scales with traditional ADC stats (AS/dmg/crit). Examples include, draven Q, corki passive, lucian passive, cait passive, jinx AOE on Q rockets etc). She used to get free dmg on her W that would scale (I believe it was +45 AD at max level), as well as bouncing to targets further scaling. Now it does a pitiful 70% flat AD with no on-ht, crits, or anything (heck even lucian passive and jinx Q can critically hit!).

  2. Steroid(s): Unlike almost every other traditional ADC (basically just ashe) she has no steroid in her kit; and the second worst AS/lvl of all ADCs. For those of you asking about her ult passive, no that is NOT a steroid (especially not when it dumpsters your AS/lvl to 1.6%). A steroid has to get better (provide more) as you increase your items. 110% AS for 5 seconds is a steroid, 60% AS for 6 seconds is a steroid, 70% AS for 4 seconds is a steroid, 130% bonus AS is a steroid, getting 2 attacks at an extra 80% AS is NOT a steroid .

Fixes

  1. Her mana costs need to totally rehauled. If you are going to continue with her dumpstered Q damage then the mana cost needs to drop by 10-30. The mana costs on her W need to drop by 10-15, and her base mana, mana/lvl, and mp5 could use some slight upward tweaks. The small buffs to it already have still done little to keep her from being heavily mana gated mid/late game as you yourselves admitted to. Furthermore, your reasoning for the increase of costs on her W, in the first place, were far from realistic.

"These nerfs mean Sivir can't create an unhealthy lane by auto-pushing her opponents to the tower without interacting with them."

Any sivir that tried to auto-push her opponents by spamming W would a) go oom in 2-3 waves, b) miss a TON of cs, and c) still have to be in AA range of the minion wave to do so; and considering how low her AA range is that still leaves plenty of space for "interaction". It's certainly not any leses interactive than a lane with cait who stays max range and auto's to set up a Q, or a lucian who Q, AA, W, AA clears the wave instantly, or a jinx who rocket Qs the creeps from max range, or the ez who sits max range and spams Q to cs, or the old varus who max Q->E to instantly clear the wave. I hope you get the point.

  1. Her E needs to be reworked to be more in-line with the benefits other ADCs get from using their escape spell aggressively. Nocturne has a perfect example of how to do this. He gets passive AS from it, and if he successfully blocks a spell he gets bonus AS for a period of time. It doesn't have to be exactly the same; but it needs to be there. This isn't 2011, getting mana back because you've gimped the champions mana costs/bases isn't a proper reward. Fix her mana costs and give her an actual ADC benefit when she plays smart and blocks a spell to start a trade or engage.

  2. Remove that trash passive on her ult, return her AS/lvl to actual ADC levels (2-4%, back to 3.28%?) and give her an actual steroid. Lots of options here, and lots of options have been suggested in past threads (most all of which were ignored). AS passive and/or active on E like nocturne works, AS on her ult like it was before, whatever you think works. But she needs something as she is currently the worst scaling ADC in LoL.

Minor Gripes

  1. I still feel her W is lackluster and could use something that helps it scale and transition into the late game. You constantly talk about how "OP" it would be if you let it do anything but flat AD (and 70% at that!) but yet champs like jinx get AOE crits on every AA. Plus there is no guarantee that you will even get "max" damage from this spell as it requires the entire enemy team to be very closely grouped and for the RNG gods to let it bounce in the perfect pattern to hit all of them just once (unlike ryze/brand/fiddle/etc who get a max number of bounces but can bounce to anything any number of times). They also get base damages to go along with the ratios on their bounce attacks.

I also don't like the fact that I am forced to use 3 when I use the spell. Sometimes I just want a quick AA reset for a trade, or I only have time to dodge in an get 1 off before having to back to pressure. This could sorely use an ammo system with an internal CD (so you don't get 3 quick AA resets) and an ammo CD to store up stacks. Maybe moving the # you can hold into the passive for her ult (2-4, 3-5?). Once again, lots of suggestions given back during the rework that seemed to be ignored.

  1. Her Q still feels off. Considering her huge focus on MS mobility (and not dash mobility like most other ADCs) her Q either needs to have it's cast timer removed/ and or have it's projectile speed increased. IMO it's one of the slowest and easiest to dodge skill shots of any of the ADCs. The first pass of the boomerang is easy enough to dodge; but the second part is all but impossible to hit unless you have the enemy on the run. In which case you have to be extremely close to actually hit with it because with just tier 1 boots if they are further than just over half the range of it they will just walk out of it because of the slow projectile speed.

  2. It'd be nice to see her passive last around .5 - 1 second longer as the bonus MS often doesn't even come into play in the early levels (until you get items) with the amount of time it takes to attack-move or cast Q. I mean honestly, vayne gets flat 30 (why doesn't hers scale? Talk about consistency) when moving toward enemy champs all the time.

16 Comments

Judarian10/10/2014, 10:06:02 AM2 votes

ive played sivir since before season 1. and i enjoyed the toggle version of her w. and the fact you could go ap nuke with her q. but they thought this was op. they added the bonus ad to her richochet. which after i figured out how to use it i could carry most games. but after this last rework i just cant pick her up. shes not nearly as powerful. she does not trade unless you go the ad caster build. and with anyone who has life steal. and with the limited range on ricochet. 3 melees in front and 3 caster minions in the back. i just cant get them to bounce unless they are piled up. and then comes the hard part of actually getting it to bounce to a champion. even in team fights theres no room for ricochet to take effect. i would really appreciate if riot would look into fixing sivir

Ten Inch Rooster10/10/2014, 5:03:19 PM2 votes

103 I'm not quite Gold V (Silver 3) but am also have been a Sivir main through her transformation and there are points I agree with you on and points on do not and maybe some of it is from a tier differential of experience but here's my two cents.

The Good: I actually think of her E from the aspect of a damage/utility reduction or debuff of the enemy, not a personal buff to me. It therefore actually has a damage (usually) value in a trade, its just not your damage. You can almost think of it as additional health or a shield for the amount of damage you would have received. Not only are they at a stark disadvantage now (some ADCs more than others) but also I have gained some extra fire power potential with my restored mana. The idea that you HAVE to use Ricochet beyond an AA just simply isn't true. If the enemy retreats because they know you have Ricochet activated you don't have to try and use it on your minion wave within the time limit and have it botch up your last hitting. The mana cost of it is not in my opinion bad at all. I do see some Sivirs wave clear with a Q & W combo. I myself was guilty of this sin for quite a while and was aggravated by my sudden HUGE loss of mana but then as I tried to think of it objectively there was no reason I ever really needed to add that Q into the mix unless it was an EMERGENCY and I had to get to another lane so badly that a couple of seconds is going to matter. If you're on your own, pushing a lane with Ricochet is easy and not a big mana drain. If you're amongst enemies why would you be blowing both your E and your Q on the minions and push the wave and leave yourself open? Finally, I'm not quite sure I agree with you on her Q being trashy damage. I can't think of any adc or support who doesn't focus on getting the hell out of the way of getting hit by the return track of the Q unless you threw it through minions. It definitely has a damage output that is respected. Not only that but it's length lends itself to one of the best pick-off abilities to secure kills on early game invades on an adc as enemies flee around the blind corners of the jungle.

The bad: I very much agree with you on the AS steroid. I really enjoyed it's placement before the rework. Also, I have always been irked by the new R. It's one of those ults that only really works in your favor if 1. you know you're going to win the subsequent engage or you're already winning or 2. You know you're going to get walloped and have to use it as an escape mechanic. In neither of these situations is your ult turning the tide of the battle in your favor. Just about every other ult can turn a battle around if it's available.

Judarian10/10/2014, 7:58:11 PM2 votes

bump for sivir justice

103percent10/12/2014, 5:43:06 PM1 votes

bump.

Kowe The Ewok10/10/2014, 5:46:16 PM1 votes

Just allow her W to proc on-hit on all 3 targets. We'll see how she performs.

103percent10/15/2014, 1:24:14 AM1 votes

the struggle =(

103percent10/10/2014, 11:05:27 PM1 votes

Sivir Justice.

103percent10/11/2014, 12:53:06 AM1 votes

where are all the sivir mains at? Honestly, probably switched over to lucian/trist/kog/corki/twitch. ADCs that actually can carry.

103percent10/11/2014, 1:08:48 PM1 votes

bump.

103percent10/10/2014, 4:30:56 PM1 votes

bump

ceaselessphantom10/10/2014, 4:42:40 PM1 votes

I will say it again. Urgot is not an adc. Urgot has never been an adc. When he was strong he was a counter for adcs. Regardless of his actual current strength he will always be listed lower than on a tier list if they treat him like he is an adc.

As for Sivir she is sort of a mix between an ad caster and an actual ad caster. She definitely does seem similar to Urgot. Sadly I do not know a lot about Sivir so i can not give much input. All I can say is her ult would probably be better replaced with a steroid since the huge utility on it is probably holding back a lot of her damage potential.