Why I Like the Season 5 Meta

EsoEs·May 11, 2015·110 votes·8,194 views

Teamfighting is awesome! When you have teamfights lasting 15-30s, a LOT can happen. When and how you engage is really important, landing skillshots is really important, having correct positioning is really important. Knowing when to peel and when to dive is really important.

For those of you wishing for a return of the assasin meta, I get it. It is now WAY harder to solo carry 1v5, which is unfortunate when the rest of your team is behind, but a blessing when the game is relatively even.

Cinderhulk MIGHT be OP, but overall I am enjoying this meta more than any other time Ive played LoL.

139 Comments

denzel777xMay 11, 201530 votes

I love everything about this season, that being said it really feels like games are lasting longer, mainly due to the dragon changes. People are willing to stall out games to get 5 dragons. I don't remember having nearly this many 40+ minute games in Season 3 and 4.

IcyPepperMay 11, 201516 votes

For those of you wishing for a return of the assasin meta, I get it. It is now WAY harder to solo carry 1v5,

Honestly, I think this is the real reason people don't like the tank meta. They think tanks can 100-0 you, but it's usually the teammates properly positioned behind them doing most of the work...

Sejuani and Amumu are obvious exceptions, but the former got nerfed so she shouldn't be too difficult to outplay.

DomainSpecificMay 11, 201511 votes

While I am a tank main, I do not really like this meta.

Certain junglers feel unkillable while doing lots of damage in this meta (Sejuani, Nautilus, Sion, Gragas). My main issue is that these champions weak point is maybe like 10 minutes early game. If you survive, then you already have a huge edge.

I feel that other jungle items should be buffed slightly.

IcyPepperMay 11, 20155 votes

I too believe that other jungle items should be buffed slightly.

I don't find Nautilus to deal tons of damage, but Sion and possibly Gragas might need to have the Sejuani treatment and toned down a bit. I don't think they nerfed Sejuani properly, they nerfed her utility but didn't hit her damage hard enough.

LeeDarkMay 11, 20153 votes

The changes to Nautilus' Riptide are huge for his damage, actually. If you ignore Naut, his shield and Riptide combined will RIP through your team. If you focus him, well... congratulations, you're focusing the tank and that means you automatically lose the fight.

IcyPepperMay 11, 201511 votes

you're focusing the tank and that means you automatically lose the fight.

The adc should be focusing the tank, as it's their job to be focusing the closest target and staying as safe as possible. They shouldn't even be in range of the backline until Nautilus is dead, because assassins and mages are still viable.

And they should deal enough damage late-game to rip through his shield.

Tanks can't be ignored anymore. That's why they were buffed. All-assassin "ignore the tank completely!" team comps don't work anymore.

LeeDarkMay 11, 20152 votes

... and your ADC just died to Gromp buff/Thornmail. Unless you picked Vayne, Jinx or Kog'maw AND someone who could shield them.

So, fucked if your ADC picked anyone else. So not only did the tank meta reduce jungle diversity, it also reduces ADC diversity and support diversity.

IcyPepperMay 11, 20153 votes

Well, to be fair you can check item builds (and if you aren't in the middle of the fight, mind you, you can click them real quick to check for the buff).

However, you did come across a good point. Gromp does need to be toned down a bit (and I think it will be or already has?).

I dunno, though. Considering that adc's have access to bork and LW to ignore a lot of the tank's build, the tanks should have something equally powerful (thornmail). Lifesteal will help reduce the damage, and as long as your frontline protects the adc and doesn't let someone burst them down, gromp/thornmail shouldn't 100-0 them alone.

LeeDarkMay 11, 20153 votes

See, the problem is you think that BotRK and Last Whisper are the answer. I've actually seen an ADC die to the combined power of Gromp and Thornmail without a single auto-attack or ability used against them. Vayne and Kog are really the only ones that can overcome that with their kits. Everyone else, Jinx included, better build BOTH lifesteal and a hefty magic resist item if they want to have any hope of killing the tank and coming out the other side of it with enough health left to do anything.

I believe this to be the primary reason Bloodthirster is actually getting built earlier. It provides hefty lifesteal AND a shield so that you can whittle the tank down.

shalexadeMay 12, 20154 votes

20% damage is healed from life steal (Blood thirster).

30% damage is returned through thornmail, assuming 42MR with MR blues, which reduces the damage by 30%.

So those two essentially cancel each other out.

So it's the Gromp.

Who dealt 10 (+ 5% of bonus health) over 3 seconds, who magically 100-0'ed the ADC?

Heck, even at the pre-nerf 10% of bonus health over 3 seconds, can't imagine it happening.

And you claim to see an ADC die from that damage alone?

ok.

LeeDarkMay 12, 20156 votes

Um, no. 20% lifesteal and 30% damage return from Thornmail do NOT cancel each other out. Thornmail's damage return is based on the damage the ADC does BEFORE mitigation reduces it. Lifesteal heals for a percentage of the ACTUAL damage dealt. Without an extra MR item to significantly reduce the damage from Thornmail, it will outdamage the Lifesteal.

The fact that you were unaware of even this most basic aspect of the equation means we're done here.

shalexadeMay 12, 20153 votes

Apologies, no need to be rude about it.

Lets look at some numbers.

Damage dealt by thornmail including magic resistance: ( AD * 0.30 ) * (100 / [ 100 + MR ] )

Amount of lifesteal heal: [ AD * ( 100 / 100 + Armor ) ] * Lifesteal

So, lets say we have a Cait. Level 18, LW, BT and an Ie. (plus AS and boots that don't come into the calc)

She deals 411AD with 35% armor pen and 42 MR (and base 1884 health).

Now, say we have full AD Tank rammus, with Thornmail, Sunfire, Frozen Heart, Randuins and Tabi (And hey, Warmogs cause we're dealing in super unkillable hyperbole worstcase supertank here)

Armor: 435 Health: 3776

So, first, we'll apply the LW, bringing the armor down to 282.75

Damage dealt by thornmail including magic resistance: ( 411 * 0.30 ) * (100 / ( 100 + 42 ) ) = 86.83

Without any bonus health, it's just the extra 10 from Gromp.

So, 96.83 per shot.

Amount of lifesteal heal: ( 411 * ( 100 / (100 + 282.75) ) ) * .2 = 21.48

So the ADC is taking 75.35 damage per shot and will die in 25 shots.

Damage dealt to the tank:

411 * (100 / (100 + 282.75)) = 107.3807969

Total Auto's to kill the Tank = 35.29

So you are correct, when a tank prioritises their spend on countering the ADC, they will indeed kill the ADC without laying a finger on them.

Makes a good argument to not run full AD comps as the same tank will get one shot by Support Annie. :D

LeeDarkMay 12, 20152 votes

And that was without the bonus health the tank has because he built Cinderhulk (EVEN THOUGH HE WAS TOP LANE) and Warmogs. 4k health is not unheard of here, and you can still build magic resist, because at Randuin's + Thornmail, the health from SV is probably a better bet than Frozen Heart. That ADC died with the MINIMUM Gromp damage.

And no, support Annie is not doing 4k burst in her combo. I kinda doubt even mid Annie is going to do that much. If she and the rest of the team try that, well, then I gotta go back to what I said at the beginning of this subthread.

congratulations, you're focusing the tank and that means you automatically lose the fight.

LordGeovanniMay 13, 20152 votes

tanks are tanks for a reason 1 person isnt supposed to be able to burst through their hp in a few seconds. if jungler items are buffed to deal with tanks they are then overly op to every other class. if adcs get killed from their own refelected damage maybe they should build straight damage how about alittle more life steal or maybe more armor pen you do alittle more damge to the tank compared to the damage you are getting back and then there are a few options for MR. its not a 1 v1 game its a 5 v 5 team game builds and stratigies can be changed to suit the need its just that many players are stubborn and have tunnel vision

fred loueMay 16, 20151 votes

"With riot: Changes will always come" - fred loue

LordGeovanniMay 16, 20151 votes

that is the point of thorn mail to reflect the damage if adc's are gonna not have all the damage reflected in their face they are gonna need some penetration, life steal or hp

shalexadeMay 15, 20151 votes

[quote] congratulations, you're focusing the tank and that means you automatically lose the fight. [/quote]

Just curiously- do you believe that the ADC should be focusing the other teams backline?

Cause if that's the case- no wonder your ADC for tore up by their front line!!

LeeDarkMay 15, 20151 votes

Not in this meta. Unless you have Vayne or Kog, your ADC gets themselves KILLED just attacking the tank. The tank doesn't even really have to do jack shit to the ADC. It's okay, I didn't really expect you to read all that complicated math stuff above.

vikenMay 11, 20154 votes

We should give warrior 5 AD back LMAO

IcyPepperMay 11, 20152 votes

5 AD.

5 AD.

MrDoctorRobotMay 11, 20152 votes

BTW great time to point out how Vi is still super viable without that 5 AD but simply switching to health build reminds me of Lee Sin when they nerfed Elder Lizard and he just got golem item instead.

Sometimes a kit is just too strong in too many areas.

IcyPepperMay 11, 20153 votes

Eh, she doesn't have an overbearing win rate (although her pick rate is rather high).

Thing is, I wouldn't say her kit is too strong, it's just complements off-builds. She can build damage, or she can build health. She's a bruiser, not a true assassin, and a lot of bruisers have a sliding scale of offensive to defense variation. You can do this with a lot of champions, but she doesn't have nearly as much in her kit as Lee does at least imo.

LuciferMay 11, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, I think this is the real reason people don't like the tank meta. They think tanks can 100-0 you, but it's usually the teammates properly positioned behind them doing most of the work...

Sejuani and Amumu are obvious exceptions, but the former got nerfed so she shouldn't be too difficult to outplay.

Sejuani got a love tap >_> She still is dominating all levels of play. Amumu has a lot of counterplay built into his kit, and I don't feel bad about losing to him, because chances are he outplayed me. When I play against a Sej, I get the feeling of, "Hmm, yah. There's not much I could have done there lol. Fucking cow"

IcyPepperMay 11, 20153 votes

She definitely got a lovetap. They hit her utility, but not her damage as much as they should have.

I find the best way to beat her is to have your tank lock her down while the adc shreds her during a teamfight. Letting her dive your carries is never a good idea, and picking three assassins with no frontline isn't a good idea either.

Voluug13May 11, 20151 votes

and picking three assassins with no frontline isn't a good idea either.

There are still people picking Zed top with a Yasuo/Katarina Mid. No wonder people QQ.

PartholonianMay 11, 20158 votes

I've seen Zed/Yi/Yasuo teams. Plus the adc, of course.

OMG we can't get through the tank with all that armor! Riot nerf plz!

Occasionally one of them snowballs to insane levels and it actually works, because it's hard to peel 3 assassins at once. Unless you land a perfect ult with a selected few champions, including Sej.

Rinky DinkyMay 11, 20152 votes

You could have not grouped up for a 5 man stun

Sejuani is the squishiest out of all the tanks for a reason. Tank shredders eat her.

LuciferMay 11, 20152 votes

{quoted}

You could have not grouped up for a 5 man stun

Sejuani is the squishiest out of all the tanks for a reason. Tank shredders eat her.

Err, she can catch one person out with her stun just as easily as 5. There's not much you can do about it when she runs at you. Also sejuani is NOT squishy O.o wtf.

SpongebobIsLifeMay 11, 20153 votes

didn't say she was squishy, he said she is squishiest out of all the main tanks, of which she is.

IcyPepperMay 11, 20154 votes

Lack of defensive steroids, I'm guessing?

Mummy has his built-in Dorans, Naut has his shield, and so on?

KonidiasMay 11, 20159 votes

I don't get why people are so happy about this meta just because it is no longer about adc or assassins... Now it's just about tanks. That's not a solution, it's just focusing everything on the most neglected champ type.

So great... all the tanks are rejoicing and saying "best season ever!" and gloating about assassins and adcs crying, etc... But I'm crying because this game is still heavily imbalanced to favor a specific champ type.

I don't believe the "now you have to have real teamfights" nonsense. It's essentially now team fights just last longer because tanks last longer... It doesn't change teamfights for the better just to make them last longer. Especially when you have essentially made the choice of what to play a no brainer. You pick tank, you win.

Your only downside in the current meta is MAYBE you have a weak early game as a tank. BOO HOO you are not a demi-god for the first 4-5 levels that last all of 8 minutes. Nobody is winning a game in 8 minutes, so you're pretty safe come 15+ minutes into the game.

Winners are decided now by who has the most tank and most CC. That's all. Don't have those things? Good luck.

Icestar1186May 11, 20152 votes

Games were always decided at least partly on CC.

PartholonianMay 11, 20157 votes

Tanks have never been able to 1v5 a fight the way assassins could, though. A tank needs their team to follow up, otherwise they're going to die slowly, but they're still going to die.

That's what makes tank meta healthier: it's actually teamwork meta. Teamwork is, indeed, OP right now. Long may it remain so.

SookoMay 11, 20155 votes

Not to mention more viable ADCs with tanks that can peel for them, such as Ashe and Twitch, and the fact that there aren't only 6 mobile junglers available on every serious game.

LeeDarkMay 11, 20155 votes

Instead, there are only 3 tanky junglers that are really viable. Instead of Lee Sin, Jarvan, Vi, we have Sejuani, Gragas... and that's pretty much it. Naut and Amumu can do it in a pinch, but they both suffer from the fact that they aren't Gragas or Sejuani. The jungle isn't any more diverse now, just different.

Icestar1186May 11, 20155 votes

No, instead of Vi/J4/Lee, we now have Vi/J4/Lee/Rek'Sai/Sej/Gragas/Nunu. That's more diverse. We went from 4 top tier junglers to 7.

PartholonianMay 11, 20157 votes

At the actual pro level I haven't seen Vi, J4 or Lee in a while (let alone Rengar, who was all over last Worlds). You have a point about Rek though, she is definitely not a tank and is still not just viable, but actively contested at the highest levels.

On the other hand, if you're up against 99% of players, all of those champions are perfectly fine if you know what you're doing with them, and so are Amumu, Zac, Warwick, Cho'gath, Maokai, Nocturne, Pantheon, Rammus, Skarner, Udyr, Trundle, Volibear, Wukong, and Xin Zhao.

LeeDarkMay 11, 20152 votes

Vi shows up rarely, and doesn't do well. She exists for ONE reason and ONE reason only--her ult can shut down mobile carries. J4 and Lee Sin are gone, since Gragas gives early game pressure that is just as good and works better as a tank.

Rek'sai is the only former jungler that can still have some impact, and Rek'sai wasn't all that great in the era of Lee Sin, and she isn't all that great now, either. She's just what's left after Sejuani and Gragas are banned or taken. Nunu is pretty much in the same boat. "Well, we didn't get Sejuani or Gragas, so I guess we'll take someone who can support-tank some." He won't have much impact, really, except indirectly through vision.

So, really, we went from 3 top tier junglers down to 2. Rek'sai wasn't top tier, and still isn't, and Nunu, Amumu, and Nautilus round out the 2nd tier. You either take Sejuani or Gragas, and if one of those gets banned, you better first pick or ban the other.

Nidalee SO NYAAAMay 11, 20155 votes

I only reason I don't like this meta is the jungle. Only a handful of champions really work in there anymore. It was cool seeing Vi played again but when cinderhulk come out shes was pushed out along with Nid and Lee sin. Even rek is tougher to play this season because fucking Gragas,Sej, Nautilus do so much damage and have 4k health. The jungle is not that healthy as people like to think

BorblandMay 11, 20153 votes

Still too many assassins like LeBlanc and Kata here, but it's getting alot better I agree.

We still have to see champs like Vel'Koz or Ziggs comming back at mid lane.

LeeDarkMay 11, 20155 votes

Largely immobile poke champions in a tank "Turret? What turret?" meta? Not likely.

BluePolarizerMay 12, 20152 votes

Vel'Koz still melts tanks due to his high sustained damage, true damage, long range and ability to build Liandry's as a core item.

LeeDarkMay 12, 20154 votes

I can't believe I have to explain this twice, but I should have guessed there would be at least two people who don't understand that the DIRECT COUNTER to immobile poke champions is to have a tank dive them and lock them down while the rest of his team utterly destroys them. Seriously, how did you make it to level 30 without figuring that out?

BluePolarizerMay 12, 20152 votes

Maybe you need to re-evaluate your thinking before throwing insults, seeing as you are silver and I am plat. Maybe its because Vel'Koz isn't just a poke champ but has very respectable tank melting burst on a low CD and typically itemizes full pen which also makes him way tankier than most mages due to his build. Maybe its because Vel'Koz is not only tankier than most mages, he can move while casting unlike Xerath or Ziggs and thus if you don't instantly burst him down he can easily kite tanks after they use their gapcloser.

LeeDarkMay 12, 20151 votes

I'm physically disabled, specifically in my left arm and hand, so I'm never going to be able to climb the ladder. Hell, I don't even play ranked anymore. But hey, since we're making fun of the disabled, and you're so fucking stupid I'm pretty sure it counts, here's a joke for you. You're so fucking stupid, you got locked in a grocery store and were still in danger of starving to death.

Vel'koz has a channeled ult which gets shut down by CC. That's how he melts people. He gets dived under his tower and destroyed. Or maybe the pros are just fucking retarded and can't see how great Vel'koz is. There's no way they would know better than a fucking Plat player, since you seem so keen on comparing skill. Please notice the spelling there. "Keen" not "Keane" because even his amazing meta-breaking ass doesn't pull out something as fucking stupid as Vel'koz.

BluePolarizerMay 13, 20152 votes

I'm not making fun of you. Everyone can see here that only one person is throwing insults.

LeeDarkMay 13, 20152 votes

Maybe you need to re-evaluate your thinking before throwing insults, seeing as you are silver and I am plat.

This implies that I wouldn't need to reevaluate if I were silver and you were plat, so you have the "right" to insult me because I'm just a stupid silver. I explained that this is due to physical disability, so using silver as an insult IS insulting the disabled. Go fuck yourself, and thanks for not responding to the actual post, showing you have jack shit to support your argument. We're done here.

iainB85May 12, 20153 votes

Not enjoying this meta because I enjoy playing AP mages, and it feels like they are at an all time low right now. Brand is still semi-viable because he has some % hp damage, but I'm finding spamming champs like Vlad with late game consistent damage over burst AP mage is waaaaaay easier to win now, and I hate it.

GorillazNtheMystMay 12, 20153 votes

I'm sorry, playing anything other than tank in this meta is really obnoxious. ADC and APC aren't enjoyable in my opinion. And if you unfortunately get in a team comp without a tank versus a team comp that has them you immediately have a massive disadvantage. Cinderhulk is absurdly OP because it's like the Deathcap of HP AND IT DOES DAMAGE. I mean... wtf, this item is super easy to build and buffs whoever builds it a ridiculous amount in the long run. Rito tried to buff anti-tank items to balance it all out, but honestly I'm yet to see the difference.

And I think what I hate most about this meta and its so-called "diversity" is the fact that it gives license to trolls to play whatever they want in whatever role they want. The advent of Kalista has slowly turned support role into "the other carry," and all sorts of bad jungle picks that aren't really viable (like Zed, Yasuo, or Akali jg) are being picked - at least in low elo like mine. I don't know, I'm just tired of being trolled by people in champ select and getting face rolled by League of Tanks in-game in the name of some supposed "diversity" that really just means MOAR TANKS.

VerxintMay 11, 20152 votes

There are a lot of edge cases of people being too tank with too much damage but overall I agree.

It's fun watching Irelias and Zeds mindlessly bum rush the ADC past Gragas and Naut the moment a fight starts, get peeled and busted down, then whine that tanks are op.