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Items that need Deleted/Reworked and why

Busty Demoness··2 votes·985 views

TL;DR: Change(s) suggested in Bold

item 3078 Trinity Force (removed)

Less because it's a super strong stat stick on fighters/tanks, but because for those same classes it adds burst, durability, mobility and CDR. Tanks and Fighters do not need their mobility/burst weaknesses covered by a single item to the point it's an added strength. The only way to keep this from being a problem is to remove it.

item 3147 Duskblade (reworked or split into two items)

Discounting the fact Lethality was a mistake in general and completely mismanaged by Riot's balance team, this item is what the entire Assassin class is balanced around. It grants free damage, free ward control (which is the biggest counter to assassins) and additional mobility (which Assassins are already super strong in). Splitting this item into two like Zhonya's Ring once was would probably be optimal for Assassin balance. At least in the split case, it adds a lethality option for marksmen/supports without either item straight up being a must buy.

item 3742 Deadman's Plate (Reworked)

A Juggernaut's favorite item, it covers their major weakness of mobility while also adding to their burst and durability. It just needs to lose the mobility. Once the mobility is lost, it's no longer covering a weakness.

item 3117 Boots of Mobility (Reworked mechanic)

It's effect of "out of combat" needs to be extended to champions being nearby. You should not be able to suddenly run down/escape an enemy champion just because they didn't hit you for 4 seconds.

item 3031 Infinity Edge (reworked)

Giving this item the same problems as Essence Reaver prior to the rework wasn't just a mistake, it was hypocritical of Riot because it's the same reason they reworked Reaver. On top of this, there's less than a dozen champions in the entire roster who can use 1 of IE's effects and only 1 of them can use both effects without an additional item. Have IE grant a bare minimum of 5% critical chance at all times regardless of other items. This way it's still not overbearing enough to be a "must rush" item but it's no longer useless on its own.

EDIT: Missed one. item 3095 Stormrazor (Reworked)

The problem with this item lies mostly in its stats, rather than its passive. It gives every stat a Marksman could want with a mini crit after no attacking for a brief period. The mobility granted by the passive could be reduced a little but a better option is to simply reduce the stats it gives. That would mean changing the recipe, best by removing 1 Longsword and instead putting that price into the combine cost. Alternatively, Swap the BF Sword for Pickaxe (again, putting the cost difference into the recipe).

Questions? Comments? "You're fucking Silver"?

24 Comments

Rewt4 votes

item 3078 - Many characters are entirely Designed around T-Force. Removing it would completely gut them. Example being hecarim. if you remove that item then you basically have to give hecarim and every other "i have ability that basically doesnt do damage and its entire purpose is to proc sheen" champion a complete and total rework. Which is absurd. so no.

item 3147 - This item could be split by removing its Ward Clear, but then they would need to drastically reduce its price to keep it gold efficient and that would just make assassins hit power spikes even earlier leading to even more snowbally games...... and no one wants that.

item 3742 - If they remove the mobility then its also going to need a DRASTIC cost reduction. Something like 800-1000 gold. Because thats essentially what those stats that you are taking away are worth. So I mean like. Now there is an INCREDIBLY cheap Armor + HP item on the field. Which is dumb. So no.

item 3117 That is like..... their niche. You want to turn them into glorified homeguards. The ONLY way to make this change without completely gutting the item is to essentially double the MS boost. or else you have legit the worst fucking item in the entire game. which is dumb. So no.

item 3031 - Im not entirely sure why they changed this item in the first place. But i mean like. I dont agree. Having IE as a Late game Build Booster is a good thing. The item Fulfills the role of a Crit Support item. You can support the crit of another item with this while also gaining damage. In the past all 30% crit items were AS items. Now IE after purchasing a 30% crit item functions as a 30% crit item. It doesnt need this change. its fine.

Busty Demoness1 votes

{quoted}

item 3078 - Many characters are entirely Designed around T-Force. Removing it would completely gut them. Example being hecarim. if you remove that item then you basically have to give hecarim and every other "i have ability that basically doesnt do damage and its entire purpose is to proc sheen" champion a complete and total rework. Which is absurd. so no.

Most of those champions wouldn't be gutted, simply slowed down to the damage pace EXPECTED of Fighters/Tanks/Divers.

Hecarim deals plenty of burst and sustained damage without Sheen. Irelia would one-shot most minions with her Q without sheen and can STILL burst squishy champions through her resets. Poppy also has plenty of burst and is already a major threat with her anti-dash wall.

You say "gutted", but how exactly is it "gutting" them when it simply forces a greater commitment? It's not like Towers have been a major threat for most of the past 2 seasons.

item 3147 - This item could be split by removing its Ward Clear, but then they would need to drastically reduce its price to keep it gold efficient and that would just make assassins hit power spikes even earlier leading to even more snowbally games...... and no one wants that.

First, it's already super efficient even if you simply remove the ward clear. It's got a damage effect very similar to Stormrazor that also slows the target (if the user is melee, aka most AD assassins). On top of this, it's free damage for pretty much any assassin BECAUSE it has the built-in ward clear. There was at least an aspect of forced awareness to Assassin players by seeing their Duskblade damage buff ticking down. That's counter play on both sides rather than Assassins simply having everything they need in one item.

item 3742 - If they remove the mobility then its also going to need a DRASTIC cost reduction. Something like 800-1000 gold. Because thats essentially what those stats that you are taking away are worth. So I mean like. Now there is an INCREDIBLY cheap Armor + HP item on the field. Which is dumb. So no.

You do realize that there's still damage and CC in the passive even when the mobility is removed, right? And tank items are meant to be outscaled. DMP doesn't really get outscaled at any point.

item 3117 That is like..... their niche. You want to turn them into glorified homeguards. The ONLY way to make this change without completely gutting the item is to essentially double the MS boost. or else you have legit the worst fucking item in the entire game. which is dumb. So no.

The entire niche is a trap use that's unfair to the other party for reasons that have little to do with outplaying them. Even if the new mechanic means a buff to the out of combat movement, that's fine because, again, it's not focused solely on the niche of creating a zero counterplay trap.

By the way, thanks for pointing out that new niche of "homeguard". Because that effect doesn't come into play until the 20 minute mark and 900 gold for getting "improved homeguard" isn't a bad niche at all.

Again, you say "gutted" and "worst item in the entire game". There's (currently) one item that will ALWAYS be worse and that's the Broken Stopwatch.

item 3031 - Im not entirely sure why they changed this item in the first place. But i mean like. I dont agree. Having IE as a Late game Build Booster is a good thing. The item Fulfills the role of a Crit Support item. You can support the crit of another item with this while also gaining damage. In the past all 30% crit items were AS items. Now IE after purchasing a 30% crit item functions as a 30% crit item. It doesnt need this change. its fine.

The problem is that it's STILL not a "crit support" item. It's a CORE item in ANY critical build and you're punished for rushing it on the one class that can ever use critical builds. Stormrazor is critical support, but it's still a better rush item compared to IE even though it falls off hard later on.

For all the times you said "gutted", I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Rewt2 votes

First and Foremost. Hecarim tickles without T-Force. When that Hecarim runs into your ADC at mach 15 and takes out 1/3 of their HP. roughly 50% of that damage is sheen proc. (having played an unhealthy amount of Hecarim I would know) Without it You would easily triple his Time to kill. Because After the initial Hello Mother fucker. He just kind of slaps you with a pool noodle. Trinity is what puts the Metal Rod in the pool noodle.

Now you mentioned Poppy and Irelia. Those are champs that while built around it. Dont have "I fucking need this item to exist" kits.

Champs who really rely on this item as part of their identity more heavily are Trundle, Udyr, Nasus (when he doesnt do the Meme Gauntlet Build) and Gangplank, Many of these characters rely on it for a majority of their damage throughout the game.

Trundle is constantly trying to proc it with Q. But at least his Q does something other than A glorified Sheen procer. Udyr is a walking sheen proc. Nasus Likes the damage bonus but could survive without it, And Gangplank first power spike before he gets like 3 crit items is Trinity.

You are saying that its removal would require greater commitment, but in reality thats not the case. Many of the champs that already use sheen have no way of getting out once they go in. They are in for the long haul. While GP likes to run the fuck away. Removal of This doesnt make him commit more, it makes him have to afk farm for another 10min.

Removing the item doesnt make them commit more. It just drastically removes damage from many of the champs that use it to hold up their old and dying kit.

item 3147 - Duskblade is on 91% gold efficient w/o its passives. Removing one will Drastically reduce its gold efficiency. This means that it will need a cost reduction. And that will lead to earlier snowballing. You cant just nerf an item without any compensation. more than just the meta champs use this item. Champs can be nerfed without compensation. Items cant.

item 3742 - This item allows bruisers to run fast. Thats its niche. If it didnt have that people would just build something else. and As I said the item would need compensation for losing that 60ms. The gold value of that 60 ms is 720 gold. And a straight across compensation doesnt make sense because now the item isnt competitive in the late game. So its a "sell at 6 items item" and that doesnt deserve straight across compensation. Which means that Now you need to take more gold off the top. Now the Tanks have a cheap early game item. and that isnt healthy for the game.

item 3117 - Glorified homeguards arent worth buying. back when you could slap homeguards on anything it was fine, but The problem lies in that Having the ONLY thing your boots do is homeguard you out. is terrible. its 900 For glorified homeguards. Why would I ever buy that when Ionians are also 900 gold. You are taking away what makes them good. cause you do realize when they arent making you go fast. they are pretty boots of speed. which are shit.

Also you say that they are a zero counterplay trap........ what. You literally fucking tap anything when you are wearing them and they turn off. A minion auto slaps you. Back down to Boost of speed. Random mini raptor catches your Sunfire/Cinderhulk and taps you. Back down to boost of speed. I am being chased by boots of Mobility. Tap them with a skill shot. Now i out run them. These boots have the most counterplay of any of the boots. Where the fuck is this 0 counterplay coming from. Literally tickle them with a feather and they lose the MS.

item 3031 - its a core item. yes. that doesnt mean its not a supporting item. Its a Core important item to many champs. And Its purpose is to support an existing build. Its not supposed to be built first. its a second if not third item. No one is stopping you from building the BF sword early on and hanging onto it for some damage while you finish off the items that you are going to be buffing with your IE. Its not Old IE anymore. its purpose isnt to be the Legs of the build. Its the arms.

And I know what gutted means. Play Hecarim without Tri. You will realize that you basically do nothing. You Run into the fight and tickle people while the ADC ignores you. cause you can be dealt with later. Tri gives champs without teeth, Dentures. You dont seem to have a working understanding of how gold efficiency or Non meta champs interact with the items in the game. You are looking at everything as a "yea i will never build that item but someone might be dumb enough to and thats ok" instead of keeping items relevant.

EDIT: Mobies "you didnt hit me for 4 seconds so i Escape" That is completely fair. Hit your damn skill shots. if you are shit enough to miss them, or they are good enough to dodge them with BOOTS OF SPEED. Then you dont deserve the kill.

Busty Demoness1 votes

I'm sorry, but when the vast majority of your argument is "needs compensation" I see zero discussion available. Especially when the rest of your arguments aren't based in facts.

Remember the crit rework? Those builds lost TONS of power without compensation and are STILL considerably weaker than before.

The other major problem with your arguments is that you're insisting that many of the champions affected still need that damage. Bullshit. They only need it if you want a single trade to dictate the entire lane phase. That is unhealthy design. That is YOU failing to understand balance.

Paroe2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=puE6zcUI,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-03T05:13:44.545+0000)

I'm sorry, but when the vast majority of your argument is "needs compensation" I see zero discussion available. Especially when the rest of your arguments aren't based in facts.

Remember the crit rework? Those builds lost TONS of power without compensation and are STILL considerably weaker than before.

The other major problem with your arguments is that you're insisting that many of the champions affected still need that damage. Bullshit. They only need it if you want a single trade to dictate the entire lane phase. That is unhealthy design. That is YOU failing to understand balance.

"Tons of power" -50% crit damage is hardly "tons of power". What came out of the crit item changes was a balanced marksman class that riot didnt even let run for a month before bringing marksmen back to roughly the same point as before. Marksmen are notoriously slow to change... And whine louder than a jet engine with a squeaky toy in it.

Busty Demoness1 votes

Let's just forget that Critical builds are typically shoehorned into no more than 1 upgraded zeal item for a maximum of 60% critical chance, a 40% reduction and a loss of gold efficiency after buying a second upgraded Zeal item.

Oh, and let's also forget that they were inherently punished for having rushed their core damage item because it was given the problems of Essence Reaver but doubled.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Paroe3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=puE6zcUI,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-03T05:27:45.848+0000)

Let's just forget that Critical builds are typically shoehorned into no more than 1 upgraded zeal item for a maximum of 60% critical chance, a 40% reduction and a loss of gold efficiency after buying a second upgraded Zeal item.

Oh, and let's also forget that they were inherently punished for having rushed their core damage item because it was given the problems of Essence Reaver but doubled.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

And you clearly have a bias. The 60% crit problem is one that riot needs to address though, for sure. Either by reducing crit on all marksman items to 25%, or giving IE 20% crit on its own. Also... You dont seem to realize how strong 100% vs 60% crit is. Or how crazy gold efficient IE is.

Rewt2 votes

First im going to touch on compensation. Bruisers arent OP. So to remove their core item without compensation would be a massive hit to them and would send them back to the dark ages.

ADCs were bonkers. And had their crit weakened. and just became. Strong.

Crit was objectively speaking. An overpowered stat. Just as lethality was Throughout S7 and arguably into S8. Now they have been reeled in. Assassins arent just instapopping tanks and ADCs arent either.

Now lets take a gander at where your POV is coming from.

You are an ADC main. You dont like getting run down by bruisers. and you dont like getting instapopped by assassins. you also dont like Junglers roaming across the map with mobies and Hunting you down.

That's why you have targeted those items.

You also Look at all these items in The lane phase. Now i have the POV that Lane phase basically doesnt exist. Comes from being a jungler.

So when you say that my argument is that champs need the damage because apparently i think that a single trade should dictate lane phase. Im not. I actually am completely ignoring lane phase. Im looking at items in the view of a 6 item build and how they operate. While Having 900g homeguards may be great to be able to essentially int while in lane and have the ability to heal and run back in 10 seconds without missing anything. They are completely useless in any other situation.

So Im now going to touch on The items 1 at a time.

item 3078 - A core item to bruisers and for some of them can be up to 50% of their damage output. A loss of which would be Devastating. But you dont like it because it allows bruisers to compete in a 1v1 with you.

item 3147 - Allows assassins to sneak up on you and 1 shot you. So you dont like it. Even though its not all that broken. its strong for sure. But not broken. Minor nerfs would be fine, but to split the item like you are suggesting requires cost reduction compensation and makes the Assassin hit power spikes earlier. Bad idea.

item 3742 - Allows Bruisers and tanks you run you down. But you dont seem to remember that its the more aggressive form of item 3143 . And In fact if you remove the MS boost on Deadman's. It becomes pointless to build. You should just build Randuin's because it gives you sticking potential and more brawling potential. The Engage potential of Deadman's is the only reason you build it over Randuin's

item 3117 - People run your ass down. They are for getting around quickly. They are build on 3 roles. Supports so they can roam and place wards. Assassins to Roam faster. And Junglers, because sometimes being more places is better than being more effective in fewer.

item 3031 - you want your easy Crit + damage rush back. And that's understandable. But the items role has changed. You Shouldnt be building it first. Its not designed for that. Its like rushing old Thornmail. 100 Armor is pretty shit without the HP to back it up. But if you have the HP to back it up then its pretty good. Its a supporting item. Not a Primary. IE is now a Supporting item.

I dont expect you to understand why tanks and bruisers build what they build. But maybe you should take a moment to understand the intricacies of Tank building. We are building our kits for max efficiency because we fall off.

And Hearkening back to something you said that tank items are meant to be outscaled. True they are. But that doesnt mean tanks are supposed to become wet tissue paper late game. They are supposed to become less effective. This means they cant hold off 4 people on their own late game, only 1-2. Again this doesnt mean he will kill those 2. It just means he can be enough of an annoyance to force them to deal with him or he will.

And You said that Mobies have no Counter. No wanna know something that has no Counter. %MaxHP True Damage. You can slap mobies and they turn off. You cant stop %maxhp True damage. Vayne

Mordepool1 votes

I agree with all except Deadmans

Triforce needs to go

Mobi boots is to situational

Duskblade. Ewww

Deadmans Mobility comes with built in Counterplay. We need more of that In the game not less.

Busty Demoness1 votes

I'm not discounting that there's things to be done about said mobility, but not every champion has a built in CC (hard or soft) and it's still flat mobility which is going to be very helpful for a Juggernaut's lack of mobility or desirable mobility items.

Rewt2 votes

But removing the Mobility on Mobies...... why. thats literally all they do.

And the OP said they have 0 counterplay....... what???? get tickled with a feather and they turn off. Thats the most counterplay you will ever see in league of legends.

Mordepool1 votes

I just think Mobi boots isn't a very well made item. Just my opinion~~~~

Rewt3 votes

i mean like. Most S1 items werent. But Being the last remaining (off the top of my head) Item from then that has remained relatively untouched has got to count for something. Honestly they are my favorite boots. As a hecarim and Warwick player i Just like to go fast.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Boots_of_Mobility

Check the patch history on these things. Basically untouched since S6.

Hotarµ1 votes

It's effect of "out of combat" needs to be extended to champions being nearby. You should not be able to suddenly run down/escape an enemy champion just because they didn't hit you for 4 seconds.

You shouldn't be rewarded for evading damage for 4-5 seconds?

Edit: Just noticed you didn't include item 3095. So gaining mobility after dodging attacks for 5 seconds straight is not okay, but gaining a damage boost after 1.5 seconds of not attacking is?

Busty Demoness1 votes

I did forget about Stormrazor. I'll add that in. But the problem isn't so much in its passive as it is the stats it gives.

The big thing about mobi boots is that it's less about rewarding "you didn't hit me". It's an unfair thing that in many cases can't be dealt with by the other player.

Imagine that you've just barely survived Alistar's Combo. Now you're running away and he can't reach you to kill you. All of a sudden, his mobi kick in and you're unable to escape because you weren't able to damage him without dying yourself. Even in cases where you could survive a second combo, depending on the situation he's simply setting you up for another champion and simply running you down with no ability to do anything else on your end. That's not a trap where you feel outplayed, but simply helpless. And it's the most common trap that Mobis set up.

Paroe1 votes

You talk about "covering up weaknesses" but... In that case shouldnt you also be suggesting a marksman item overhaul? item 3031 +25% crit item 2015 attack speed removed, +15% critical strike chance. item 3086 Critical strike chance removed. Movement speed removed. +25% attack speed. item 3077 Unique passive; Runaans blessing (Ranged only, fires two bolts that can critically strike and apply on hit effects). Can be purchased on ranged champions. Upgrades are still locked to melee and ranged.

item 3087 Movement speed removed. Critical strike chance reduced to 25%. +40AD. Now builds out of item 1038 + item 2015.

item 3094 Movement speed removed. Critical strike chance reduced to 25%. Attack speed reduced to 25%. Builds out of item 2015 + item 1051 +item 3086

item 3085 Movement speed removed. Critical strike chance removed. Attack speed increased to 70%. +30AD. Now builds out of item 3077 +item 3086+item 1043

item 3046 Attack speed reduced to 35%. Critical strike chance reduced to 25%. Now builds out of item 1051 +item 3086 +item 1051

Marksman itemization is too efficient and covers all of their weaknesses for very little gold. They should NOT have %movement speed if their job is to kite enemies, and attack speed+crit should NEVER be a strong item stat due to how multiplicative stats work. With the above changes marksmen items are given better build paths while diversifying their builds; If you want more upfront burst go one item set. If you want more sustained damage go the other; they serve difference niche's in a very impactful way.

Busty Demoness1 votes

Really? The critical build covers the weakness of being exceptionally squishy?

The only critical item that does that is Phantom Dancer. The only other generic items that even remotely cover it are Bloodthirster and Death's Dance.

Sustain like BT and DD don't work well when the champion can't attack. And Phantom's defense is exceptionally weak outside of one on one situations.

Secondly, all of the critical items with any damage on them are more expensive than Lethality items (and people wonder why they're taken on Marksman instead of critical items). On top of this, Lethality items are all built out of very inexpensive components. And don't forget, lethality items still come with mobility.

Finally, if I had the chance to overhaul critical items (again), I'd go in a much different direction than what you suggested. But that's for another thread.

Paroe2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=puE6zcUI,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-10-03T05:23:57.044+0000)

Really? The critical build covers the weakness of being exceptionally squishy?

The only critical item that does that is Phantom Dancer. The only other generic items that even remotely cover it are Bloodthirster and Death's Dance.

Sustain like BT and DD don't work well when the champion can't attack. And Phantom's defense is exceptionally weak outside of one on one situations.

Secondly, all of the critical items with any damage on them are more expensive than Lethality items (and people wonder why they're taken on Marksman instead of critical items). On top of this, Lethality items are all built out of very inexpensive components. And don't forget, lethality items still come with mobility.

Finally, if I had the chance to overhaul critical items (again), I'd go in a much different direction than what you suggested. But that's for another thread.

You think the intended weakness of marksmen is that theyre squishy?! They have the same base HP as most fighters. Their weakness is that they are largely immobile and need at least four stats to function, two of which are multiplicative.

The ONE crit item which is expensive is IE, item 3031 , at a whopping 3400g. item 3095 is 2800g. With the exception of IE, all of the marksman class items are 2800g or below and contain the following stats; Attack speed, Crit, Movement speed, and a scaling additional effect.

Marksman itemization is WAY to strong for its cost, and that needs to change. Double multiplicative stats NEED to be low, thus the changes i outlined which give them Niche's to occupy. In said changes the only price hike is Runaans, which would require 3300g in items (all of which are not bad items) and probably +100~200g in combine cost.

Ætheist1 votes

Why are people STILL saying the Lethality stat is a mistake?

Do we just forget when you bought your Dirk and got 10 armor peneration instantly instead of the maybe 7 you get from it at the time of purchase now? Hell, back when Dirk had regular armor penetration, we also had armor penetration runes, so you had somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 flat armor pen with just a Dirk, or a Brutalizer if you go farther back.

No, the problem is (possibly) too many Lethality items, but more likely just there being more physical damage that's affected by Lethality. Such as Duskblade proc, Electrocute's adaptive damage...

Busty Demoness1 votes

Because no matter how Riot designs the items, they will still be abused by the same Marksmen champs which Riot promised wouldn't happen.

Even if Lethality were to only be armor penetration that affects skills (and not auto attacks), the same problems would exist. And if they were changed to only apply to auto attacks, Assassins couldn't use them at all as the intended class.

So that's why the stat was a mistake. Riot is forced to balance an entire class around those items while still being completely incapable of preventing the same abusers from other classes continuing to use them.

CIayman1 votes

lol

CIayman1 votes

Tri champs weren't a problem until season 8

Don't delete my champ just because conq is disgusting bullshit

Busty Demoness1 votes

Well, since Riot won't nerf the runes properly, something else needs the nerfs. Would you prefer that to be every single triforce champion or the item itself?

CIayman1 votes

All 3 are hypotheticals that more than likely won't happen. The hypothetical of my choice is the deletion of conq

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