Junglers should stay more time in jungle. UPVOTE FAST.

sAyCo·Mar 1, 2018·4 votes·385 views

Junglers should stay more time in jungle, and losing a lot of gold, time, exp, if they ganked a lane and it didn't succeed.

And once it is a succeeded gank, Everything should be as same as like they are still farming in jungle.

The reason because.

As junglers they have helped a lane, and they got more advantage, it shouldn't be more advantage for both jungler and the laner.

Also by that jungler should stay more time in jungle. They already can gank every 3~4 minute once. if not twice.

Junglers are meant to be extra help to the team, Not the carrying ones.

Once they get a couple of kills, they are a big danger for other's lanes. for example (Kayn Assasin)

Please +2000 Upvote so we can get the rid of this.

Sincerely.

Edit: Also jungle Monsters are too weak in mid/late game, makes the games very one sided. (if the junlger is feeded enough).

9 Comments

MorganFreemanBotMar 1, 20184 votes

We had this; laners veto'd it.

Riot doubled down on jungle farming back in S4 and S5. They made jungler items award bonus gold for killing camps rather than xp, had camps respawn fast, and made it so you would ALWAYS have a camp to clear.. Unless you were, maybe, a power farming Shyv.

As you may remember, this was the era of feral flare and sated devourer. Arguments about item imbalance aside, this design had a couple of very large problems and a few smaller ones.

The largest problem was that ganking wasn't really worth it. You would be giving up ensured gold and xp for a shot at gold and xp; and in most cases the difference was marginal enough (you could easily farm 200g+ from your camps in the time it took to gank) that ganking wasn't worth it. This split into the two primary problems with the season. There is more to this (it was INSANELY for a jungler to catch up when falling behind), but I'm keeping it short.

1: Junglers didn't gank much, if at all. This meant that laners had no 'safety net', for lack of a better term. If you fell behind / had a bad lane match up, you were pretty much on your own. This led to a lot of laners being upset that they didn't get any outside help (and that one hostile gank could REALLY fuck them over), but also felt bad as a jungler because you didn't participate much.

2: Somewhere between 15-20 minutes the jungler's would emerge, and subsequently run the rape train on everyone else in the game. The combination of interaction free - and therefor threat free - farming meant that Junglers would get insanely strong off of farming.

This felt bad for laners because there would suddenly be this hyper powered monster curb stomping them, and they got so powerful without needing any lane dynamics / offering no real opportunity to 'shut them down'.

It also felt bad for junglers, because farming camps for a quarter of an hour is not an engaging experience.

Some other minor problems included:

The trivialization of counter jungling (steal a camp? np, they all have a 45 second respawn timer) which really reinforced the "afk farm" play style.

The pub-stompy nature of flare and later devourer. These items were reviled in lower leagues due to the power they gave their bearers, but totally non-viable in higher levels where a team would capitalize on the power dip it forced on the enemy jungler.

So, what's the point here?

Well, we have the counter point. Laners bitched and whined about junglers being able to afk farm, without worry, before emerging to stomp their entire team; junglers hated the immense risk vs miniscule reward style of ganks. Now ganks are mandatory; they are absolutely needed, and a major contributor of gold.. But, as a result, failing a single gank doesn't entirely remove a jungler from the game.

As someone who's been playing since S2 preseason, I've seen almost every iteration of the jungle. This is probably one of my favorites, because I'm able to participate in the game but also encouraged to balance it with farming.

sAyCoMar 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

We had this; laners veto'd it.

Riot doubled down on jungle farming back in S4 and S5. They made jungler items award bonus gold for killing camps rather than xp, had camps respawn fast, and made it so you would ALWAYS have a camp to clear.. Unless you were, maybe, a power farming Shyv.

As you may remember, this was the era of feral flare and sated devourer. Arguments about item imbalance aside, this design had a couple of very large problems and a few smaller ones.

The largest problem was that ganking wasn't really worth it. You would be giving up ensured gold and xp for a shot at gold and xp; and in most cases the difference was marginal enough (you could easily farm 200g+ from your camps in the time it took to gank) that ganking wasn't worth it. This split into the two primary problems with the season. There is more to this (it was INSANELY for a jungler to catch up when falling behind), but I'm keeping it short.

1: Junglers didn't gank much, if at all. This meant that laners had no 'safety net', for lack of a better term. If you fell behind / had a bad lane match up, you were pretty much on your own. This led to a lot of laners being upset that they didn't get any outside help (and that one hostile gank could REALLY fuck them over), but also felt bad as a jungler because you didn't participate much.

2: Somewhere between 15-20 minutes the jungler's would emerge, and subsequently run the rape train on everyone else in the game. The combination of interaction free - and therefor threat free - farming meant that Junglers would get insanely strong off of farming.

This felt bad for laners because there would suddenly be this hyper powered monster curb stomping them, and they got so powerful without needing any lane dynamics / offering no real opportunity to 'shut them down'.

It also felt bad for junglers, because farming camps for a quarter of an hour is not an engaging experience.

Some other minor problems included:

The trivialization of counter jungling (steal a camp? np, they all have a 45 second respawn timer) which really reinforced the "afk farm" play style.

The pub-stompy nature of flare and later devourer. These items were reviled in lower leagues due to the power they gave their bearers, but totally non-viable in higher levels where a team would capitalize on the power dip it forced on the enemy jungler.

So, what's the point here?

Well, we have the counter point. Laners bitched and whined about junglers being able to afk farm, without worry, before emerging to stomp their entire team; junglers hated the immense risk vs miniscule reward style of ganks. Now ganks are mandatory; they are absolutely needed, and a major contributor of gold.. But, as a result, failing a single gank doesn't entirely remove a jungler from the game.

As someone who's been playing since S2 preseason, I've seen almost every iteration of the jungle. This is probably one of my favorites, because I'm able to participate in the game but also encouraged to balance it with farming.

its not true, they can always catch up, even a leaver at the enemy team after 30 minute could reach from lvl 1 to lvl 11 (while i was feeded enough and lvl 13) in my team, its not true what you are saying its not true at all, all im asking from riot.

making EXP gained less from jungle
making monsters stronger in mid/late game
making jungler will lose some gold if ganked a lane and didnt get a kill and considered as ( WASTED TIME )

Fuk jungler anyway why the fuk this should be a thing? what you are saying making no sense.

MorganFreemanBotMar 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=x HIGH x,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pRGWR2WR,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-03-01T19:32:42.576+0000)

its not true, they can always catch up, even a leaver at the enemy team after 30 minute could reach from lvl 1 to lvl 11 (while i was feeded enough and lvl 13) in my team, its not true what you are saying its not true at all, all im asking from riot.

making EXP gained less from jungle

making monsters stronger in mid/late game

making jungler will lose some gold if ganked a lane and didnt get a kill and considered as ( WASTED TIME )

Fuk jungler anyway why the fuk this should be a thing? what you are saying making no sense.

I really shouldn't be arguing with you, it's pretty clear that you're not actually thinking about what you're saying. But alas, once more into the fray.

Junglers, similar to laners, need to be able to participate in the game even if they do not crush their 'lane phase'.

One of the problems with s4-5 - the one I didn't touch on - was a "fall behind, stay behind" style of jungling. The jungle was an xp stream roughly equal to that of a solo lane, provided it was aggressively and repetitively farmed. This led to one of the major reasons not to gank; if you failed the gank, or heaven forbid died, you would never be able to (reasonably) recover that xp. This meant that ganks gone bad would result in a gold AND xp disadvantage, which was too heavy a risk to take in most cases.

Currently junglers have a substantially weaker gold stream than laners. Even a jungler who is moderately successful at ganking will have less gold than their laners themselves; this is one of the reasons that jungler items are so gold efficient but also restricted to smite users, so that junglers can end the "laning phase" roughly equal with laners item wise despite being down in gold.

Basically, you cannot kick jungler gold AND xp in the balls at the same time, or else jungling becomes far too unforgiving. Junglers need to suffer handicaps to one or the other (gold is the better option) from 'failing', while able to stay roughly equal to the rest of the game in the other.

This is similar to when, in a losing lane, you will miss cs to stay safe, but also still stay in xp range. You'll generally find yourself SLIGHTLY behind in levels, and noticeably behind in gold, but not so much as to be total dead weight. Junglers do not have a 'lane' in the same sense, but they need to operate on the same principal to avoid being horrifically effected by feast or famine design.

sAyCoMar 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I really shouldn't be arguing with you, it's pretty clear that you're not actually thinking about what you're saying. But alas, once more into the fray.

Junglers, similar to laners, need to be able to participate in the game even if they do not crush their 'lane phase'.

One of the problems with s4-5 - the one I didn't touch on - was a "fall behind, stay behind" style of jungling. The jungle was an xp stream roughly equal to that of a solo lane, provided it was aggressively and repetitively farmed. This led to one of the major reasons not to gank; if you failed the gank, or heaven forbid died, you would never be able to (reasonably) recover that xp. This meant that ganks gone bad would result in a gold AND xp disadvantage, which was too heavy a risk to take in most cases.

Currently junglers have a substantially weaker gold stream than laners. Even a jungler who is moderately successful at ganking will have less gold than their laners themselves; this is one of the reasons that jungler items are so gold efficient but also restricted to smite users, so that junglers can end the "laning phase" roughly equal with laners item wise despite being down in gold.

Basically, you cannot kick jungler gold AND xp in the balls at the same time, or else jungling becomes far too unforgiving. Junglers need to suffer handicaps to one or the other (gold is the better option) from 'failing', while able to stay roughly equal to the rest of the game in the other.

This is similar to when, in a losing lane, you will miss cs to stay safe, but also still stay in xp range. You'll generally find yourself SLIGHTLY behind in levels, and noticeably behind in gold, but not so much as to be total dead weight. Junglers do not have a 'lane' in the same sense, but they need to operate on the same principal to avoid being horrifically effected by feast or famine design.

Okay and im talking kindly now (if you have time to answer)

1.From where did you get this information? (Currently junglers have a substantially weaker gold stream than laners.)

Not the gold, ( they have LOT of time to gank all the time ) if a failed gank - it doesnt matter at all. they will go jungler kill the monsters in 1 sec, And going to another gank.

really look. i dont have anything else to say.

Super SandmanneMar 1, 20181 votes

This is a really good post, tbh it should be its own thread. The removal of farming junglers is why the role is just about ganking now.

420 gramsMar 1, 20181 votes

How do you do that? Make jungle camps respawn quicker? Because then power farming junglers get stacked SO quickly. Make the camps harder to kill? Then if you're not playing a select few strong clear Junglers you're almost worthless for your team and forget about even surviving the clear on anything off meta.

Pokemonred200Mar 1, 20182 votes

I will never forget how fast I would get Feral Flare or Sated Devourer when the camps didn't take 25 years to respawn.

It seems like this is one of the hardest things to find a middle ground to, tbh.

sAyCoMar 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=420 grams,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pRGWR2WR,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-03-01T18:59:15.125+0000)

How do you do that? Make jungle camps respawn quicker? Because then power farming junglers get stacked SO quickly. Make the camps harder to kill? Then if you're not playing a select few strong clear Junglers you're almost worthless for your team and forget about even surviving the clear on anything off meta.

Tbh. idk how balance team can do that, but im sure that they are good enough to do. Also in late games, jungle monsters are very weak, and they die too fast, and jungler became the danger around all the map. going everywhere with dark harvest +6 kills with no worries about farming, (monsters dies 1 hit already) makes the game very once sided.

Pokemonred200Mar 1, 20181 votes

Not sure how easy it is to find a middle ground with this, given when junglers spend time farming, people often complain about the jungler not babysitting them 24/7. It's a double-edged sword.