Youmuu's active is too efficient.

Busty Demoness·Jul 30, 2016·10 votes·757 views

You get effects worth 1790 gold, lasting for 6 seconds (according to the Wiki).

This translates into a total value of 4770 gold over 3 seconds, and 9540 over 6 seconds. I don't think we have any other item active, even under the best ideal conditions, working at 9540 gold over 3 seconds.

When you add that Youmuu's cooldown is 45 seconds, half of any other item active for a champion who would grab either Youmuu's or one of the other items, you now have to double the comparison to 19,080 gold over 3 seconds to match Youmuu's efficiency. Youmuu's pretty much shoves out other item actives from being viable due to lasting twice as long with guaranteed efficiency.

Granted, you won't be using Youmuu's anytime it's up. However, even under perfect conditions, you don't have any single item active other than Youmuu's that would be worth anywhere near 10,000 total gold over 3 seconds.

Riot, please gut this item's active or replace it.

32 Comments

MunchCrunchLunchJul 30, 20167 votes

dude. thats not how it works. the way it works is that the stats it gives during the active are worth that much it doesn't add up

Busty DemonessJul 30, 20162 votes

Then let me put it to you this way, since you seem to have difficulty understanding.

Let's go with item 3153 's Active for this example.

Deals 10% of the target's current health in physical damage (minimum of 100) upon activation. Heals for the damage dealt by the active. Slows the target by 25% for 3 seconds. Increases your movespeed by the same amount for 3 seconds.

Let's say, for the sake of illustration, that BORK's active has, on average, effects worth 2000 gold immediately, and 1000 for the lingering effects each second over the next 3 seconds. This would bring the total value of the effect to 5000 over 3 seconds. The exact formula for this being 2000 + (1000 x 3).

Now, I can't say that's what the exact numbers would be. However, that's the formula I'm using for this particular argument against Youmuu's efficiency.

MunchCrunchLunchJul 30, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pHEwGiFT,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-07-30T04:48:40.345+0000)

Then let me put it to you this way, since you seem to have difficulty understanding.

Let's go with 's Active for this example.

Deals 10% of the target's current health in physical damage (minimum of 100) upon activation. Heals for the damage dealt by the active. Slows the target by 25% for 3 seconds. Increases your movespeed by the same amount for 3 seconds.

Let's say, for the sake of illustration, that BORK's active has, on average, effects worth 2000 gold immediately, and 1000 for the lingering effects each second over the next 3 seconds. This would bring the total value of the effect to 5000 over 3 seconds. The exact formula for this being 2000 + (1000 x 3).

Now, I can't say that's what the exact numbers would be. However, that's the formula I'm using for this particular argument against Youmuu's efficiency.

thats not how stat efficiency is calculated in league of legends.

Busty DemonessJul 30, 20162 votes

Do you have a better means of comparing the actives?

Also, I listed it as "total gold value of X over 3 seconds." The math was done just fine.

MunchCrunchLunchJul 30, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pHEwGiFT,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-30T05:26:46.339+0000)

Do you have a better means of comparing the actives?

Also, I listed it as "total gold value of X over 3 seconds." The math was done just fine.

no. all good efficiency values are calculated on passive stats only. nobody calculates active stats efficiency. its an active. thats about it. there is no efficiency to them.

Busty DemonessJul 30, 20162 votes

If there's no efficiency in the actives of any other item, then what's the point of having any of those other items?

WoonStruckJul 30, 20165 votes

Your means of calculations can ONLY be applied when comparing item actives/passives that grant calcuable stats over a small duration.

You should only be taking the raw gold value it grants and tacking on "for 6 seconds".

Any time someone's fighting, they will essentially have Youmuu's, so its value, in reality, is closer to its base value plus the active's value; seconds don't really come into account, really.

The item simply needs its base stats gutted, the active gutted (base stats very slightly buffed), or the CD on the active absolutely gutted, Zhonya's style. One of the three.

Its way too good right now.

VolcanuzJul 30, 20161 votes

This. Couldn't say it any better.

ValyrianBladeJul 30, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pHEwGiFT,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-07-30T04:48:40.345+0000)

Then let me put it to you this way, since you seem to have difficulty understanding.

Let's go with 's Active for this example.

Deals 10% of the target's current health in physical damage (minimum of 100) upon activation. Heals for the damage dealt by the active. Slows the target by 25% for 3 seconds. Increases your movespeed by the same amount for 3 seconds.

Let's say, for the sake of illustration, that BORK's active has, on average, effects worth 2000 gold immediately, and 1000 for the lingering effects each second over the next 3 seconds. This would bring the total value of the effect to 5000 over 3 seconds. The exact formula for this being 2000 + (1000 x 3).

Now, I can't say that's what the exact numbers would be. However, that's the formula I'm using for this particular argument against Youmuu's efficiency.

That's not how this works at all... When you purchase an item with base stats (i.e. what you're referencing gold value off of) you get those stats PERMANENTLY (or at least until you sell the item). You can't give the same gold value to stats you get from an item active, ESPECIALLY the same gold value PER SECOND.

You CAN say that the item active is worth 1790 gold when active. Which basically means that Youmuu's gold value is: 3166.67 when not active 4956.67 when active

Now, you make a valid point about comparing item actives - obviously since the bonus is temporary you need to factor in how long they last. You do this very wrong though. Inevitably temporary stats are worth less than permanent stats, so how are you assigning a permanent value to each second the item is active? Then doubling it because of how often it's active?

You asked for a better option. I'll put one here, but it will STILL be incorrect. It will overvalue the active since (as you admitted) the item will never achieve perfect efficiency, you'll inevitably not use the active whenever it's up (nor will you fully use the active when you activate it, as you may get the kill/turret before the stats wear off, or you may only need the MS or only the AS and not both when you use it). It will also undervalue the active because there's plenty of time where the cooldown is ticking while you don't need the stats (although MS is always useful, so this undervaluing component is only really on the AS).

Anyways, how you could value it: Permanent value: 3166.67 Active value: 1790 Active duration: 6 seconds Active cooldown: 45 seconds Active percentage: 6/45 = 2/15 = 13.33% Total value = 3166.67 + 1790 * 0.1333 = 3405.22

So Youmuu's costs 3200 gold. It's 99% gold efficient without the active, and 154.9% gold efficient while the active is used, averaging out to 106.41% gold efficient in total.

In contrast, almost any top tier item without an active (ranging from the 2600 zeal items to the 3000+ items) will be around 110-120% gold efficient. So it's actually pretty balanced overall - you're sacrificing permanent efficiency for the ability to temporarily gain a power spike.

BloodyTomponJul 30, 20165 votes

People don't calculate gold efficiency per second. That's why you are getting ridiculous numbers.

Busty DemonessJul 30, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pHEwGiFT,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-30T05:26:46.339+0000)

Do you have a better means of comparing the actives?

Also, I listed it as "total gold value of X over 3 seconds." The math was done just fine.

If you don't have a better means to compare the actives, then don't post about it.

BloodyTomponJul 30, 20165 votes

The better means is the standard means. The way it was done in the wiki (where there was no mention of time btw- no X gold per second, just X gold) where it says it's approx 150% gold efficient with the active in use.

There's nothing wrong with the way you've done it arithmetically, it just isn't very useful for comparing stat efficiency. I mean, does Phantom Dancer have it's stat efficiency multiplied by, say, the 12 seconds the fight lasts? You can see how the an already inexact comparison becomes even more inexact by adding in the temporal aspect.

If you don't have a better means to compare the actives, then don't post about it.

If you don't want criticism, corrections nor conversation, don't post. :p These things tend to cut both ways, especially in a public forum.

Busty DemonessJul 30, 20162 votes

The idea is that I don't want you posting about my formula if you don't have a better one. Go ahead and criticize any other part if you so desire.

I would love to hear any suggestions on...

a better means to calculate the efficiency of items that are not raw stats on active use
how to justify guaranteed stats on an item active that lasts twice as long as the effects of any other active, none of which have any guarantees
how to bring Youmuu's in line with the other items given its guarantees
anything else that you feel is relevant to Youmuu's being balanced or imbalanced (op or not)

BloodyTomponJul 30, 20162 votes

a better means to calculate the efficiency of items that are not raw stats on active use

There is no good way for non stat passives or actives. The slow on hammer can't be costed in terms of gold.

how to justify guaranteed stats on an item active that lasts twice as long as the effects of any other active, none of which have any guarantees how to bring Youmuu's in line with the other items given its guarantees

Not quite sure what your meaning with these. What guarantees? That he will get some basal level worth of gold with the active? While he will get this when converted into gold, the impact that will have at any point in time is not guaranteed. There's a huge variance in the output. E.g., it could be activated before a fight even happens and have no influence.

anything else that you feel is relevant to Youmuu's being balanced or imbalanced (op or not)

I'm not convinced it's out of line right now. Having said that, I dislike the item because of the attack speed. It's an item that to me is aimed at AD assassins and AD assassins don't benefit from AS much. The presence of AS is why it's being picked up by non-assassins, because ADC's can utilise it.

Busty DemonessJul 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

There is no good way for non stat passives or actives. The slow on hammer can't be costed in terms of gold.

At least with the actives, you can compare durations, cooldowns, and how much potential benefit you get. The rest is pretty straight up outside of the unique passives like BORK's % current HP on hit effect.

Not quite sure what your meaning with these. What guarantees? That he will get some basal level worth of gold with the active? While he will get this when converted into gold, the impact that will have at any point in time is not guaranteed. There's a huge variance in the output. E.g., it could be activated before a fight even happens and have no influence.

Guarantees as in "There's no variance or conditionals. You activate this and you get exactly this much for X duration."

BORK and Zhonya's actives both have variance and conditionals respectively.

Bork's varies based on the target's current health and move speed. Zhonya's grant invulnerability at the cost of disabling you from any other action.

Youmuu's is a simple "activate this and have fun". Anything else you need to generally apply some consideration for.

I'm not convinced it's out of line right now. Having said that, I dislike the item because of the attack speed. It's an item that to me is aimed at AD assassins and AD assassins don't benefit from AS much. The presence of AS is why it's being picked up by non-assassins, because ADC's can utilise it.

When just about every meta ADC build in Plat+ includes the item, there's something putting it up there.

It's the active that makes it so valuable for an ADC. Nothing else gives an ADC enough reason to buy the item over Black Cleaver or Phantom Dancer/Hurricane.

BloodyTomponJul 30, 20161 votes

At least with the actives, you can compare durations, cooldowns, and how much potential benefit you get. The rest is pretty straight up outside of the unique passives like BORK's % current HP on hit effect.

You can compare those things for actives and passive sure, they can't all be done in terms of gold though. They can only be compared in terms of gold if it's stats.

Guarantees as in "There's no variance or conditionals. You activate this and you get exactly this much for X duration."

BORK and Zhonya's actives both have variance and conditionals respectively.

Bork's varies based on the target's current health and move speed. Zhonya's grant invulnerability at the cost of disabling you from any other action.

Youmuu's is a simple "activate this and have fun". Anything else you need to generally apply some consideration for.

Can you clarify what you mean by conditionals? You are using it very differently to how I use it. It sounds like you are talking about decision making?

Bork I can see is conditional upon the enemy being in range. The output of that active is also conditional on the enemy. Which leads to the variance.

Zhonya's has no conditional that I can see (which is why I'd like you to clarify what you mean). It can be used any time and the output is the same. A 2 second statis. The variance in Zhonyas comes not in the conditionality of it, but the decision making. When do I use it. Even though the statis output is the same the value of that varies because it might prevent a huge amount of damage, it may prevent nothing.

So to me, Ghostblade has no conditionals because it can be used whenever, wherever and however. It has a huge amount of variance in the output in terms of damage (similar to bork) even though there is no variance in the stats gained. If you were talking about decision making, I'd agree it's fairly low with Ghostblade. Even though there is a huge amount of variance provided depending on when it's used, there isn't a great deal of tension or decision making that I would say is present in Zhonyas.

t's the active that makes it so valuable for an ADC. Nothing else gives an ADC enough reason to buy the item over Black Cleaver or Phantom Dancer/Hurricane.

Completely agree.

Busty DemonessJul 30, 20161 votes

Zhonya's and Zeke's are examples of actives with conditionals.

Zhonya's renders you unable to do anything else in exchange for being invulnerable for the duration. Zeke's requires that you remain close enough to the linked target so that you activate it.

The short answer is that a conditional is something that forces you to think about when you're using the item. For Zhonya's, it's the inability to do anything else. That can leave you trapped or give you just enough time for your other spells to come up.

Variance is what keeps items like BORK and Mercurial Scimitar in check. Mercurial Scimitar also has the issue of having no lasting effects after being used. So if you cleanse too early, you're now very vulnerable to CC.

BloodyTomponJul 31, 20161 votes

So was this kind of what you were talking about then?

If you were talking about decision making, I'd agree it's fairly low with Ghostblade. Even though there is a huge amount of variance provided depending on when it's used, there isn't a great deal of tension or decision making that I would say is present in Zhonyas.

Busty DemonessJul 31, 20161 votes

It's another problem with the active, yes.

VolcanuzJul 30, 20161 votes

HIs right though.. That means an item on your scale like BT would be over an entire match worth of gold in 2 minutes of use. You should really just use the formulas the wiki already has.

IS3E531E3F964391Jul 30, 20165 votes

I think another problem is it's low cooldown, you don't have to think ''hmm should I use it now or save it for a team fight which might happen in a minute'' because by then it's already up again

Busty DemonessJul 30, 20162 votes

The other problem is how it's guaranteed stats with no conditionals.

Zhonya's = You become invulnerable for 3 seconds, but you can't move either. Blade of the Ruined King = Do I slow the tank that I'll need to kite or save it for an enemy trying to get away? Mercurial Scimitar = Can I afford to save it or will I die without using it?

Heck, not even Zeke's is this bad, since it requires that you be near the other person for long enough to give both of you the benefit before you two separate again.

VolcanuzJul 30, 20162 votes

Not really. The thing is most times you won't even be able to activate it, like in a gank on you. Or even when ganking, even if you activate it a Exaust can destroy the active and get you killed. People see or use it as a IWIN button but it isn't. It only helps people who auto or need A LITTLE MORE gap closing. Like take Panth for instance.

I buy it on my panth as his first item. I get it really early in game, like super fast. But i don't use it much. Panth has a gap close (W) and he has a stun attached to it, he only autos tops 2-3 times in a 1v1. In a group fight by the time his combo is done, he is dead or the team have finished them off. So the AS right away goes out the window. Then you have the move speed, it isn't super crazy high, it is % based so if your move speed is a small amount it will only affect it a small amount. Also it is only 20% which there are many items better at bumping your speed.

So in the end on Panth i use the active ONLY if i am helping kill baron or dragon, or think it could help me catch a champ, which it doesn't, if they have even 30 more MS then i have they are long gone even with the active on as i only gain 30 or so MS with base and 32 or so with boots.

Sure there are champions where the active works wonders!! But the thing is it just isn't viable enough for them to buy, most times if you see youmuu in someones build, it is someone who relies on their skills to kill and not on auto attacking or movement speed and only use it on towers or objectives as i said.

SO I DOUBT they use it ALL THE TIME. They save it, like i do, for towers or dragon.

SpoofghoulJul 30, 20163 votes

they should revert the change where they amde the active just as usefull for ranged champions TBH

its an AD assassin item

do we have ranged assassins & fighters other then Graves?

No?

ok then nerf the active for ranged only

NineTailedMysticJul 30, 20163 votes

Youmuu's is pretty bonkers in general.

Virgin RayJul 30, 20162 votes

https://66.media.tumblr.com/97e7d177c76e0d545de3f4d972a05001/tumblr_nki94ic8K11ta2n54o1_500.gif

Brimaz The KingJul 30, 20162 votes

It's the number one bought item in dimound plus ranks

BloodyTomponJul 31, 20161 votes

Does it trump these? item 1001 item 2003 item 3649

Into The AetherJul 30, 20162 votes

Valk's analysis is more accurate for how to value the item active, though the usage considerations are still worth noting.

While the average value of the passive is gonna be based on the item's uptime, which maxes at 6 seconds out of 45, the value of the active gets skewed by burst scenarios, or using it in appropriate windows to get more value out of it.

So if you get 9 seconds of wailing on a turret due to the conditions on the map, you get that active uptime for 2/3 of the relevant time and get 1193 average gold value for that interaction. If you didn't need the movespeed for dodging during that time, then it plays more like 667 gold value for that time period.

The average max value is still going to approach but not actually reach 238 gold due to not popping it on cooldown.

And if you're caught out while it's on cooldown, you get it for 0 seconds of that interaction, and get 0 gold value during that.

How you use the item is extremely relevant to the value of it, because if you're consistently layering that 6 seconds over short interactions when they matter most, you get a lot of value out of it. Obviously very good players are going to tend to maximize the use of it.

The active isn't why it's bought though, it's that the general stats are nice. Penetration is a geometric scalar like other auto attack related stats. If the enemy has like, 100 armor, then you're getting 11% more damage out of all of your physical damage due to the 20 ArPen. (100+100)/(100+100-20) = 1.111ish. If they have 60 armor, its (100+60)/(100+60-20) = 1.14ish, for 14% more. That'll range from 16-13% on turrets too, which crit doesn't work on, due to turrets now ranging from 40 to 70 armor throughout the game.

An I.E. costs more, and it's bonus only adds to autoattacks. The average value it adds being 30% to autos only, and is very erratic early. (0.2 * 1.5)= 0.3, for 30% more average auto damage. That'll pop to a harder spike with a zeal item, but when early trades are dominated by ability use, and the ArPen still scales multiplicatively with the crit you build later, Youmuu's is obviously pretty efficient. It's cheaper, so you spike earlier, and you're more consistent. It's a good lane winner, and has a friendly build path.

The comparison's still wonky since B.F. into Zeal item into I.E.'s been more effective than straight I.E. for a while, but the point remains. Youmuu's active is gravy. Armor rushers are the only ones that'd make the Youmuu sub-par, and they don't make up that much of the enemy team. And I.E.'s reliance on a 2-item spike is rough with the early game focus.

This mostly applies to the ADCS, but AD casters mesh even more naturally with the ability scaling Youmuu's gives. Plus CDR. Because CDR.

BloodyTomponJul 31, 20161 votes

How you use the item is extremely relevant to the value of it, because if you're consistently layering that 6 seconds over short interactions when they matter most, you get a lot of value out of it. Obviously very good players are going to tend to maximize the use of it.

Completely agree. The value changes depending on how it was used in game. It could be worth 10k gold in stats, but if you're dead and can't use them, it doesn't influence the fight so it doesn't matter.

the active isn't why it's bought though, it's that the general stats are nice. Penetration is a geometric scalar like other auto attack related stats.

I do and do not agree with this. Penetration is very nice (especially with the tower armour from a few patches ago), but I don't think ghost blade would be bought without it's active (at least not on ADC's). A lot of fights are won and lost in 6 seconds. That extra 'spell' that the active provides can contribute a reasonable amount to fights for auto attackers.

MaeDoSanJul 30, 20161 votes

Nice math

FrodoBagginsesJul 30, 20161 votes

item 3140 This item's active is worth more than any other in the game. Ability to remove any cc is unmatched by raw stats. item 3157 also has an incredibly strong active to essentially not exist for a short period of time. item 3142 comes nowhere near these two items and usefulness which is just as needed in an item as deficiency.